When I was at Tunica last year, 2012, for the first Southern Classic, I over heard one of the pro players/gamblers that was practicing on the 10 ft. tables say there is no reward in pool for becoming a better player. I had not played in a pool league for 25 years till this past summer when a friend of mine asked me to play on his BCA team. It was fun, so when he asked me to play on his APA team this fall, I said ok. I am a rookie at this league stuff, but after the second week they raised me from a 3 to a 6. The way I see it, if I continue to get better, I'll just get penalized for it, so why play? I think I will continue with the BCA team and play tournaments like I have been. I don't care for a lot of drama, and it seems to me that this APA thing has a lot of drama involved in/with it.
No Reward for Improvement
- Thread starter lstevedus
- Start date
I'm confused here, you are saying that raising your handicap level to the level of your game is a penalty?
Hmmm...
Isn't the BCA league also handicapped where you go up as you get better?
There is a LOT of reward for becoming a better player, especially at the pro level, you get to win more and eat more regularly. Maybe even 3 meals a day if you're lucky!
Maybe you did not get what's in your head quite right when you typed it out, but it seems the post kinda starts in the middle to end of a thought and does not really make sense.
Are you saying that if you play bad the handicap leagues allow the worse players to win against the better ones? That's kinda the point, same as with golf handicaps or having a smaller basketball when the women play.
Don't know how others feel, but I don't play pool to make a living by lying about my game or to try to beat on weaker players that don't know any better for my ego. I just want to play the best pool there is, even if with my ability that is several notches bellow even "good" pool much less "best" LOL
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i got a question for you . are you a female ? the reason i ask is that in our area all new males start as a 4 and females start as a 3. maybe other people can chime in about how it is in their area.
you say there is no reward for improving, are you one of those people who feel penalized for being handicapped at their true playing ability.
yea you will find some drama in leagues, ALL LEAGUES.
as a matter of fact there is drama every where, heck there is drama at the pro level much less leagues. people try to start drama on here every day,you just gotta learn how to fade it.
Ok, I really am a rookie at this league stuff. I was told that you stayed a 5 for the first year till you established at what level you play. You guys are the experts. I was also told that in some areas a 5 might be a 7 in a different area, and a 7 might be a 5 if he, or she, played yet in another part of the country for example. Also you might have to play someone 5 to 2 for example, and I haven't seen anyone that plays in my area of the country that plays so bad that they couldn't win getting that kind of a spot. I'm talking about the players I see play in my leagues and tournaments of course. So fill me in. How does this stuff work? Thank you.
It just depends on what type of person you are and the outlook you have on your "pool career".
Personally, as a one-time 5-speed in our statewide league, I actually asked to be moved up 2 years ago, even tho I wasn't putting up great results.
To backtrack just a hair, the first night I played in my local room (it was non-league night), the top dog in there evaluated my game and wanted to rate me as a 4-speed. Everyone in the room respectfully protested a bit and said I could survive as a 5. I've had a chip on my shoulder, because of the 4-speed comment, ever since that night.
As time moved on, I knew that I was becoming a better player, but that room I was regularly playing in was filled with guys way over my head. I felt that if I went to a different room and played a whole different set of players, I'd have more success. Anyway, after REQUESTING a bump UP in my rating, I was told to win some tourneys, cash more often, etc. and then get back to the league board.
FWIW, my best friend who was the same speed I was......did the same thing and was given the same answer.
Last year, halfway thru my second league season, I BEGGED to be moved up a level and was again rebuffed. So, my buddy and I started driving to other rooms and, sure enough, regularly started putting up good results. For about 2 months straight, virtually either he or I won that room's tourney.....or at least made it to the finals.
So, at the end of last year, I begged again to be moved up a speed. After the final season's vote by the league board, my friend and I were both moved up. I was happy. At first. I thought we were being rewarded for doing what they wanted us to do. Win tourneys. Cash more regularly. Get more Top 4 finishes.
But, I found out thru the grapevine that we weren't truly voted to move up on merit. We were allowed to move up simply because we kept asking.
This really lit a fire under me. So, I put in a lot of time at the table over the summer, hit Tunica, played in non-league tournaments, watched/read more instructional videos/books, and generally put in more table time.
So, I went 2 and out in my first tourney of this season, as a 6-speed. I played well in my first match and pretty badly in my second.....to lose both. It happens.
Then I shot very, very well and finished 2nd in a tourney the following week. I dogged the game-ball at hill-hill or I would have taken it down.
Then I went to a big (for this state) 56-player tourney and waded thru several players rated above me. Completely torched a guy one level below me. Ended up with a couple of shut-outs amongst all that. The only players to beat me were 10-speed Masters, which is the highest rated players we have. They killed me, but they were supposed to.
As soon as the last ball fell, and I was eliminated, I shook my opponent's hand. Then I immediately turned to the next table where the league president was sitting and firmly told him that I'd like to be moved up to a 7-speed. This time he never argued, him-hawed or anything. He just nodded his head really, really quickly and I had a new rating and fresh membership card by the end of the night. Ended up tying for 13th and cashed at that tourney. Not too bad.
The next week's tournament was a bad one, even tho I won my opening round, because I then proceeded to fall flat on my face in the next 2 matches to get eliminated. I looked around and quickly realized that NO ONE was shooting well AT ALL and it ended up being.....well, let's just say that there's an equipment issue that has to be resolved at that place. Not making excuses. I SHOULD have played better. But, it definitely wasn't all me. I think I just let it get in my head after a while, thereby making it worse. I need to learn to fade situations like that and be mentally stronger.
So, last Friday night, at a different room, but with the same core players as the week before (when I had played so badly), I won the tournament with my still fairly fresh 7-speed rating. I just plain shot great. Ran some racks. I did get some rolls, but some of those were ones that I created.
I honestly don't think pool would be quite as fun if I won EVERY single match. To me, the reward is pushing, pushing and finally breaking thru against certain opponents and obstacles. Then once you've kicked the door wide open, you walk thru it and never look back. I immediately start looking for another strong, locked door. I search within myself for the key.
I love competitive pressure. Some don't.
Instead of looking at it as a punishment, has anyone actually tried "playing up" on purpose to see if it improves their focus and pushes their game to the next level?
I have and I LOVE it.
Personally, as a one-time 5-speed in our statewide league, I actually asked to be moved up 2 years ago, even tho I wasn't putting up great results.
To backtrack just a hair, the first night I played in my local room (it was non-league night), the top dog in there evaluated my game and wanted to rate me as a 4-speed. Everyone in the room respectfully protested a bit and said I could survive as a 5. I've had a chip on my shoulder, because of the 4-speed comment, ever since that night.
As time moved on, I knew that I was becoming a better player, but that room I was regularly playing in was filled with guys way over my head. I felt that if I went to a different room and played a whole different set of players, I'd have more success. Anyway, after REQUESTING a bump UP in my rating, I was told to win some tourneys, cash more often, etc. and then get back to the league board.
FWIW, my best friend who was the same speed I was......did the same thing and was given the same answer.
Last year, halfway thru my second league season, I BEGGED to be moved up a level and was again rebuffed. So, my buddy and I started driving to other rooms and, sure enough, regularly started putting up good results. For about 2 months straight, virtually either he or I won that room's tourney.....or at least made it to the finals.
So, at the end of last year, I begged again to be moved up a speed. After the final season's vote by the league board, my friend and I were both moved up. I was happy. At first. I thought we were being rewarded for doing what they wanted us to do. Win tourneys. Cash more regularly. Get more Top 4 finishes.
But, I found out thru the grapevine that we weren't truly voted to move up on merit. We were allowed to move up simply because we kept asking.
This really lit a fire under me. So, I put in a lot of time at the table over the summer, hit Tunica, played in non-league tournaments, watched/read more instructional videos/books, and generally put in more table time.
So, I went 2 and out in my first tourney of this season, as a 6-speed. I played well in my first match and pretty badly in my second.....to lose both. It happens.
Then I shot very, very well and finished 2nd in a tourney the following week. I dogged the game-ball at hill-hill or I would have taken it down.
Then I went to a big (for this state) 56-player tourney and waded thru several players rated above me. Completely torched a guy one level below me. Ended up with a couple of shut-outs amongst all that. The only players to beat me were 10-speed Masters, which is the highest rated players we have. They killed me, but they were supposed to.
As soon as the last ball fell, and I was eliminated, I shook my opponent's hand. Then I immediately turned to the next table where the league president was sitting and firmly told him that I'd like to be moved up to a 7-speed. This time he never argued, him-hawed or anything. He just nodded his head really, really quickly and I had a new rating and fresh membership card by the end of the night. Ended up tying for 13th and cashed at that tourney. Not too bad.
The next week's tournament was a bad one, even tho I won my opening round, because I then proceeded to fall flat on my face in the next 2 matches to get eliminated. I looked around and quickly realized that NO ONE was shooting well AT ALL and it ended up being.....well, let's just say that there's an equipment issue that has to be resolved at that place. Not making excuses. I SHOULD have played better. But, it definitely wasn't all me. I think I just let it get in my head after a while, thereby making it worse. I need to learn to fade situations like that and be mentally stronger.
So, last Friday night, at a different room, but with the same core players as the week before (when I had played so badly), I won the tournament with my still fairly fresh 7-speed rating. I just plain shot great. Ran some racks. I did get some rolls, but some of those were ones that I created.
I honestly don't think pool would be quite as fun if I won EVERY single match. To me, the reward is pushing, pushing and finally breaking thru against certain opponents and obstacles. Then once you've kicked the door wide open, you walk thru it and never look back. I immediately start looking for another strong, locked door. I search within myself for the key.
I love competitive pressure. Some don't.
Instead of looking at it as a punishment, has anyone actually tried "playing up" on purpose to see if it improves their focus and pushes their game to the next level?
I have and I LOVE it.
The first week I played a 2 and was supposed to win 3 before she won 2. She won the first game, and I messed up and scratched on the 8 the 2nd game, not on purpose either. The second week I won 3 to 0. I don't know what I started out as, but after the 2nd week they made me a 6. Does that sound right?
It sounds like you were given some bad information.
No one stays at any level for any length of time in APA, just because. If you improve, you go up, based on a super-secret formula that everyone thinks they know and no one really does.
Nonetheless, the better you do, the more likely you will go up. If you do poorly, you will eventually go down.
Its actually fairly accurate, if folks keep score properly, and folks don't try to game the system.
I've seen people go from 4 to 7 in a week, because they were that good. On the other hand, I've seen players stay a 4 for many, many years. The bottom line is, the better you play, the better you are expected to play. And that is the way it should be. At least to me.
I have fun. The people I play with have fun. Occasionally, the system gets it wrong, and someone is a level higher, or lower, then they probably ought to be. Its a law of averages thing, and eventually it gets straightened out. No one plays the same every time, and everyone has the days when they play over their heads.
Play whatever league you enjoy, and don't worry too much about what "they" say...
No, it doesn't. But there are a lot of factors to consider. Did you win in, say 1 inning total, over two games? That could be part of it.
Your Skill Level can fluctuate for a while when you first start, because there isn't a lot of data for the computer to go on. After a while, its far more predictable, once you've established a baseline of your results.
Staying the same rank for a year sounds fishy, it's usually only for a few matches. It's true that if you play in an area with bad players you can rise in comparison to a 7, then play in a national tournament against another 7 that is a level higher than you. This often happens when you play in a town where there are no real pool halls and thus not many if any real players. If your best players can't make more than 3-4-5 balls in 9 ball a turn, your area is low ranking.
It sounds like you need to decide what you want to get out of pool. Do you want to be the best player you can be, or just the most effective league player you can be?
The most effective league players get there by doing one of two things:
One is learning how to "manage" their handicap. As much as league players hate to admit it, many of the most effective players are those who are the most effective at staying as underrated as possible. Handicapping systems are always vulnerable to this, and these people will figure out the math eventually. They know how many games/matches they have to lose or balls they have to miss, and they do it. Unfortunately for the leagues, other people (myself included) see this stuff going on and decide they want no part of the league thing. A player who is ok with doing this would be correct in saying there is no incentive to get better - their growth as a player is stifled by their mindset, and they don't genuinely love the game.
The other way is to become stronger than the maximum rating. If the maximum rating is a 7 and you play 9 speed, you are going to win almost all of your matches regardless of how much weight you are giving up. In some areas where a lot of players are overrated, you could probably pull this off as a low A player - in other areas you would have to play much stronger than that. Regardless, it will require tons of work and effective practice, not to mention competing in tournaments and getting out of your area to play other people. You truly have to love the game, otherwise you will burn out long before reaching this level. The upside is that the sense of satisfaction from reaching this level is immeasurable, and you will be respected as a great player instead of just a good statistician.
Good luck,
Aaron
The most effective league players get there by doing one of two things:
One is learning how to "manage" their handicap. As much as league players hate to admit it, many of the most effective players are those who are the most effective at staying as underrated as possible. Handicapping systems are always vulnerable to this, and these people will figure out the math eventually. They know how many games/matches they have to lose or balls they have to miss, and they do it. Unfortunately for the leagues, other people (myself included) see this stuff going on and decide they want no part of the league thing. A player who is ok with doing this would be correct in saying there is no incentive to get better - their growth as a player is stifled by their mindset, and they don't genuinely love the game.
The other way is to become stronger than the maximum rating. If the maximum rating is a 7 and you play 9 speed, you are going to win almost all of your matches regardless of how much weight you are giving up. In some areas where a lot of players are overrated, you could probably pull this off as a low A player - in other areas you would have to play much stronger than that. Regardless, it will require tons of work and effective practice, not to mention competing in tournaments and getting out of your area to play other people. You truly have to love the game, otherwise you will burn out long before reaching this level. The upside is that the sense of satisfaction from reaching this level is immeasurable, and you will be respected as a great player instead of just a good statistician.
Good luck,
Aaron
Practice, play, improve should be self motivative for YOU and YOU alone not for others or what others may have to offer.
Otherwise it is a waste of time. :thumbup:
Otherwise it is a waste of time. :thumbup:
How do you get "penalized" for it?
You mean you might spot someone so many games or balls that you actually lose a match?
Remind yourself whose fault it is the next time you miss a ball, screw up your safe, or whiff a kick.
Did the spot do that, or did YOU do that?
The spot is there to keep it interesting. If you shoot to your level or better you will almost always win.
Stop worrying about the ranking number. If you can't win, don't cry that it's the spot's fault.
You know when you could have played better, you'll never lose in the APA and say
"I don't see a single thing I did wrong".
If you feel more comfortable playing short race stuff, go for it.
But, crazy as it sounds, the "Amateur" APA league is the closest you'll come to playing a weaker player
in a fair gambling set. It's a race long enough to ensure both players get multiple chances,
with a handicap big enough that either player can win.
There's no reason a good player should run from that and prefer some short-race match
like BCA's single game format. How much pride do you take in winning one game?
You mean you might spot someone so many games or balls that you actually lose a match?
Remind yourself whose fault it is the next time you miss a ball, screw up your safe, or whiff a kick.
Did the spot do that, or did YOU do that?
The spot is there to keep it interesting. If you shoot to your level or better you will almost always win.
Stop worrying about the ranking number. If you can't win, don't cry that it's the spot's fault.
You know when you could have played better, you'll never lose in the APA and say
"I don't see a single thing I did wrong".
If you feel more comfortable playing short race stuff, go for it.
But, crazy as it sounds, the "Amateur" APA league is the closest you'll come to playing a weaker player
in a fair gambling set. It's a race long enough to ensure both players get multiple chances,
with a handicap big enough that either player can win.
There's no reason a good player should run from that and prefer some short-race match
like BCA's single game format. How much pride do you take in winning one game?
Doesn't anyone want to be challenged anymore? This is the problem that comes up when people start caring more about a win than they do about their actual ability. I would rather know that I am improving and doing my best and get a loss than play someone way below my skill level just so I can get a easy win.
I would hate to play in a handicapped league. I can see that if you're playing just for fun and a few laughs it wouldn't make much difference but I've read far too many threads on APA to realise people take this stuff too seriously. People can't really take pride in beating someone because there handicap doesn't represent their ability.
I play in a snooker league here and that's handicapped. It is awful. I played someone way below my level, they knocked in a long red from the break and made a 24 break. I came to the table and made an 70 something break and still lost the match. Utter BS. I would have had to make a world class break to stand a chance of winning. There have been a few pros here that have played in the league before they turned pro. Most played from -80...how the heck did they win when they played people on +10?
I understand where the OP is coming from. Any handicapped team league is BS if you ask me. If a team of 5 aren't good enough to beat another team of 5 evens then they shouldn't be in the same division.
I play in a snooker league here and that's handicapped. It is awful. I played someone way below my level, they knocked in a long red from the break and made a 24 break. I came to the table and made an 70 something break and still lost the match. Utter BS. I would have had to make a world class break to stand a chance of winning. There have been a few pros here that have played in the league before they turned pro. Most played from -80...how the heck did they win when they played people on +10?
I understand where the OP is coming from. Any handicapped team league is BS if you ask me. If a team of 5 aren't good enough to beat another team of 5 evens then they shouldn't be in the same division.
There are a lot of players that take pool league very seriously, I for one is NOT one of them. I play league for fun, and I would still play pool if there were no leagues cuz I like the playing pool I don't do it for league. For me if I can make a jump shot after few months of practice is a reward, running a rack of 9 ball is a reward and to match up with guys even up that used to give me a spot is a reward.
As far as league play goes may be if you become better player you can pull off a great win for your team and win a big team tournament, that's a big reward.
Most of the leagues are focused on "balance" or they want to be "fair", so to me it makes complete sense that if you get better your rating should go up.
And once you go higher you'll have to maintain your "speed" to be at that position which is very challenging.
As far as league play goes may be if you become better player you can pull off a great win for your team and win a big team tournament, that's a big reward.
Most of the leagues are focused on "balance" or they want to be "fair", so to me it makes complete sense that if you get better your rating should go up.
And once you go higher you'll have to maintain your "speed" to be at that position which is very challenging.
Excellent post, I especially like the part that I highlighted. Words to live by.
It sounds like you were given some bad information.
No one stays at any level for any length of time in APA, just because. If you improve, you go up, based on a super-secret formula that everyone thinks they know and no one really does.
Nonetheless, the better you do, the more likely you will go up. If you do poorly, you will eventually go down.
Its actually fairly accurate, if folks keep score properly, and folks don't try to game the system.
I've seen people go from 4 to 7 in a week, because they were that good. On the other hand, I've seen players stay a 4 for many, many years. The bottom line is, the better you play, the better you are expected to play. And that is the way it should be. At least to me.
I have fun. The people I play with have fun. Occasionally, the system gets it wrong, and someone is a level higher, or lower, then they probably ought to be. Its a law of averages thing, and eventually it gets straightened out. No one plays the same every time, and everyone has the days when they play over their heads.
Play whatever league you enjoy, and don't worry too much about what "they" say...
Agree with dub 100%. One thing about the APA is if you're known player they can always start you at the appropriate S/L and bypass the whole S/L 3,4 20 score thing. Perhaps you were hoping to keep a low skill level (sandbagging?) and got ratted out.
This league thing, it's not for everyone, If I were you I'd move on
This makes a lot of sense to me. Running over someone who can't play isn't any fun or at least it's not for me. I'd rather tackle a strong player and fight hard to see if I can win than to play someone who gives you two or three shots a game. In my local 9 ball league I play as a AA player and you better not make mistakes or not get out when you're supposed to if you want to win your match (we play a race to 9 matches).
James