Lower level players should not use LD cues

A

americanfighter

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Low Deflection cues are all the new rage but through my journey back after my stroke I found that It is probably not beneficial or could even hurt you to use and LD shaft.

The reason is because of what a beginner or low level intermediate should be focusing on. which is a consistent stroke center ball and speed. All of those things can be perfected with a regular shaft and the LD shaft does not help. An LD shaft helps you with english which is something a lower level player should not worry about.

I have found that the LD shaft hurt my recovery because although I need to stick with center ball and speed control I am tempted to english on it and about 60% of the time when I do It results me missing the shot or my control is off any way because of speed.

However when I use a regular shaft I am not as tempted because I know there is squirt and I play center ball.

In sum what lower level players should be focused on are speed stroke and center ball which all can be achieved with a regular shaft. The major advantages a LD shaft dont help that much and can entice players in to practicing what the shouldn't (inside and outside English)
 
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Not so sure ld will make that much of a difference.

As one of those lower level player to whom you refer, I find that developing a good stroke means striving to hit the cb where you intend to, whether it be center or otherwise.

While having less deflection may mean pocketing the ob while playing inadvertent english, LD shafts wont have any real effect on the spin the cb and the resultant position.
 
Using your logic, lower level golfers shouldn't be playing with perimeter weighted "Ping" style irons. Reality is, lower level players almost exclusively use perimeter weighted irons while the pros use blades (although more and more pros use perimeter weighted forged and hybrids). The object of the game is to enjoy playing. If legal equipment enhances that, it is mostly good. Allowing that lower level player to sink more shots will increase their enjoyment of the game and may motivate them to practice. Besides, IMHO, LD shafts aren't as forgiving for pool as perimeter weighted irons are for golf.
 
I agree that newbies like me should focus on making shots and position with center ball. But when the time comes to use english (after proficiency with pocketing the ball and having the right speed), an LD shaft is helpful (IMHO).

Why have to buy another cue just because it's time to use english?
 
Every player. Everywhere. Every time should always be using an LD shaft.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one…
 
bdorman, the problem isn't the shaft, it's your sloppiness, to be blunt. Yes, an LD shaft will squirt the cb less. Your problem, is that you wrongly took that fact as a "get out of jail free card" and thought that meant you could get a little sloppy with your stroke and get away with it. Always try and be as exact as you can. If you don't, you won't ever get there.

Now, that said, I feel just the opposite you do. An LD shaft can actually help a lower level player. A lower level player naturally is not going to be as exact as a higher level player, which means he/she will not be hitting on the exact vertical line very often. An LD shaft, with less squirt, can help minimize those errors.

Just remember, don't take that minimizing as a "get out of jail free card" for sloppiness.
 
americanfighter said:
Low Deflection cues are all the new rage but through my journey back after my stroke I found that It is probably not beneficial or could even hurt you to use and LD shaft.

The reason is because of what a beginner or low level intermediate should be focusing on. which is a consistent stroke center ball and speed. All of those things can be perfected with a regular shaft and the LD shaft does not help. An LD shaft helps you with english which is something a lower level player should not worry about.

I have found that the LD shaft hurt my recovery because although I need to stick with center ball and speed control I am tempted to english on it and about 60% of the time when I do It results me missing the shot or my control is off any way because of speed.

However when I use a regular shaft I am not as tempted because I know there is squirt and I play center ball.

In sum what lower level players should be focused on are speed stroke and center ball which all can be achieved with a regular shaft. The major advantages a LD shaft dont help that much and can entice players in to practicing what the shouldn't (inside and outside English)
Click to expand...

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. First off, consistent stroke and speed is only acheived through lots and lots of practice and has absolutely nothing to do with the type of shaft. You also mention that LD shafts help with english, this is incorrect. I learned how to play on a regular maple shaft and now shoot with a LD shaft. The only difference in english is where you aim in relation to the object ball. The actual spin put on the cue ball and its effect on the object ball at the time of contact are exactly the same assuming you execute both shots how it was planned. Consistency is consistency and if you start off with a LD shaft thats fine. You will learn how to aim and make shots with or without english just as you would with a traditional maple shaft. Being "tempted" to use english because of the fact that you are using a LD shaft is your problem and has nothing to do with the shaft. I was "tempted" just as much when i was a beginner and you know what? I sucked for quite a while, that's how it works. Now I am rather proficient with it and can use it to my advantage when it's needed. It also took me a long time to realize when it was and wasn't a good time to use lots of english. I would have never learned these things without testing and evloving my game. All these things are part of the learning process regardless of what kind of stick you use.

I will say this to end with. If you are a brand new player and decide to go with a LD shaft and learn everything with it, you will have a tough time playing with a high squirt shaft. Playing with bar cues, or traditional maple cues will be tough and your game will suffer when using left and right english. Your aiming point is very different and you really need to be aware of it and make the necessary adjustments. I think is the biggest advantage to learning and sticking with a traditional cue is that you can pick up 90% of cues out there and shoot decent. If you are 100% used to LD shafts it's tough to play with anything else.
 
What do you consider a beginner or lower level player? Using APA skill levels as reference or 9-ball ABCD.
 
ACtually I disagree with the entire premise.

LD shafts (and other tech like tips now) allow you to just aim to make the CB hit the OB where you want it to. This means parallel or close to parallel english.

If you are lining up on center ball with an LD shaft and have stroke flaws that cause you to veer off and hit the ball with spin you will therefore miss the shot.

If you do this with a standard shaft and are bridging at the cues pivot point (much more likely than with LD tech) you can make the shot with poor mechanics while putting unintentional spin on the ball.

If the premise is that with LD tech, the temptation to attempt to use spin before you are ready to is too great, then you probably don't have the discipline for it to matter much anyways.

Yes, beginners shouldn't be trying to use spin and should be focusing on tangent line shape and speed control or just pocketing balls depending on what low level they are at.

However, you should start playing with what you are going to end playing with. The more experience you get with what you're going to use, the more consistent your game will be.

Jaden
 
I actually can't 100% disagree with your line of thinking.
I want to but I can't :)

When I pick up a bar cue (as I had to last friday), I absolutely use less sidespin. I'm scared to spin the ball.
It feels so random on longer shots. So I just focus on my speed and how high to form my bridge.
And I play shape so that I won't need to whip the ball off the rail with lots of sidespin.

I find I can get out surprisingly well playing this way.
It's probably good for me to play like that sometimes... like eating broccoli once in a while is good for me.

At the same time, I think it is damaging to a player to start with one shaft, spend years on it,
and then switch to another. They have to relearn how to aim common shots and will struggle
for a while with it. Recently I gifted a buddy an OB Classic shaft, after he'd been using an old Meucci
with stock shaft for years. I knew he might not adjust to it or like it, but I felt like it could help him with some shots.
I was shocked at how he seemed to adapt to it right away and played well with it.

What I eventually realized is that he actually was ok because for most shots he uses minimal sidespin.
And when he does sidespin it's a little outside.

When he tried to shoot this ball with heavy inside, I saw how he was lining up and winced
because I knew he'd miss and maybe even hit the wrong side of the ball.

hsoT5lg.jpg


I think you're correct that players need to learn to love the vertical axis.
But they shouldn't learn two different lines of aim. If they have a choice, they should learn
one line of aim using one consistent type of shaft their whole life, to build consistency.
If I could start over again I'd go LD from day one.
 
berko said:
Not so sure ld will make that much of a difference.

As one of those lower level player to whom you refer, I find that developing a good stroke means striving to hit the cb where you intend to, whether it be center or otherwise.

While having less deflection may mean pocketing the ob while playing inadvertent english, LD shafts wont have any real effect on the spin the cb and the resultant position.
Click to expand...

I am talking about the mechanics of your stroke not where you put the ball.

the thing is continually hitting inadvertent english and having bad mechanics while having moderate success means you will not progress because you will not know what you are doing wrong.
 
nobcitypool said:
Using your logic, lower level golfers shouldn't be playing with perimeter weighted "Ping" style irons. Reality is, lower level players almost exclusively use perimeter weighted irons while the pros use blades (although more and more pros use perimeter weighted forged and hybrids). The object of the game is to enjoy playing. If legal equipment enhances that, it is mostly good. Allowing that lower level player to sink more shots will increase their enjoyment of the game and may motivate them to practice. Besides, IMHO, LD shafts aren't as forgiving for pool as perimeter weighted irons are for golf.
Click to expand...

That is not accurate comparison what the low level golfers are using are forgiving clubs that are designed to help them hit straight and once the can hit straight the up grade to blade clubs that alow them to put spin on the golf ball. while Low Defection cues are designed to reduce squirt and help your aiming when putting english. No one upgrades to a hard rock maple cue.

this is for people who want to improve to greater levels if you enjoy where u are more power to yah.
 
americanfighter said:
Low Deflection cues are all the new rage but through my journey back after my stroke I found that It is probably not beneficial or could even hurt you to use and LD shaft.

The reason is because of what a beginner or low level intermediate should be focusing on. which is a consistent stroke center ball and speed. All of those things can be perfected with a regular shaft and the LD shaft does not help. An LD shaft helps you with english which is something a lower level player should not worry about.

I have found that the LD shaft hurt my recovery because although I need to stick with center ball and speed control I am tempted to english on it and about 60% of the time when I do It results me missing the shot or my control is off any way because of speed.

However when I use a regular shaft I am not as tempted because I know there is squirt and I play center ball.

In sum what lower level players should be focused on are speed stroke and center ball which all can be achieved with a regular shaft. The major advantages a LD shaft dont help that much and can entice players in to practicing what the shouldn't (inside and outside English)
Click to expand...

This is so ridiculous on so many levels starting with probably .2 outta 30 beginners has your OCD like mindset on that part with the 'cant help using english' stroke thing. That problem does not exist for anyone but you that i know of. As for the rest, i kept thinking it was sarcasm Hopefully so.
 
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bdorman said:
I agree that newbies like me should focus on making shots and position with center ball. But when the time comes to use english (after proficiency with pocketing the ball and having the right speed), an LD shaft is helpful (IMHO).

Why have to buy another cue just because it's time to use english?
Click to expand...

because when they are starting out they don't need to go out and buy an expensive LD shaft as a regular old action cue and it would be beneficial to do so

for both their wallet and the development of their game.
 
nahog99 said:
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. First off, consistent stroke and speed is only acheived through lots and lots of practice and has absolutely nothing to do with the type of shaft. You also mention that LD shafts help with english, this is incorrect. I learned how to play on a regular maple shaft and now shoot with a LD shaft. The only difference in english is where you aim in relation to the object ball. The actual spin put on the cue ball and its effect on the object ball at the time of contact are exactly the same assuming you execute both shots how it was planned. Consistency is consistency and if you start off with a LD shaft thats fine. You will learn how to aim and make shots with or without english just as you would with a traditional maple shaft. Being "tempted" to use english because of the fact that you are using a LD shaft is your problem and has nothing to do with the shaft. I was "tempted" just as much when i was a beginner and you know what? I sucked for quite a while, that's how it works. Now I am rather proficient with it and can use it to my advantage when it's needed. It also took me a long time to realize when it was and wasn't a good time to use lots of english. I would have never learned these things without testing and evloving my game. All these things are part of the learning process regardless of what kind of stick you use.

I will say this to end with. If you are a brand new player and decide to go with a LD shaft and learn everything with it, you will have a tough time playing with a high squirt shaft. Playing with bar cues, or traditional maple cues will be tough and your game will suffer when using left and right english. Your aiming point is very different and you really need to be aware of it and make the necessary adjustments. I think is the biggest advantage to learning and sticking with a traditional cue is that you can pick up 90% of cues out there and shoot decent. If you are 100% used to LD shafts it's tough to play with anything else.
Click to expand...

the thing is that they get no benefit to their development because they shouldn't be trying to play english.

It helps you play with english because it helps you aim while using english and That is something a lowerlevel player should not be focusing on. You mentioned that when developing you were tempted for a long time before adapting. If you were playing with a hard maple shaft you probably would not have been tempted for long because of the squirt and been able to develop faster than you did

I agree with your last paragraph
 
pretty soon...

americanfighter said:
because when they are starting out they don't need to go out and buy an expensive LD shaft as a regular old action cue and it would be beneficial to do so

for both their wallet and the development of their game.
Click to expand...

Pretty soon they won't need to spend a lot.

Jaden
 
Nostroke said:
This is so ridiculous on so many levels starting with probably .2 outta 30 beginners has your OCD like mindset on that part with the 'cant help using english' stroke thing. That problem does not exist for anyone but you that i know of. As for the rest, i kept thinking it was sarcasm Hopefully so.
Click to expand...

How is this is an OCD mindset beginners dont need to be focusing on english so an LD shaft is not really that beneficial and some people get bogged down with using english when their problems such as an inconsistent stroke and speed control.
 
ctyhntr said:
What do you consider a beginner or lower level player? Using APA skill levels as reference or 9-ball ABCD.
Click to expand...

well I cant say this is not right for every player because i think sometimes the APA skill level doesnt reflect their true skill


But in general 2s and 3s
 
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