Q? about buying a second cue...

[mojarraman]

Hello all. Paul is the name.

Years ago, I bought a new (Viking) stick for around $200, but the thing developed a minor crook in the joint even though the butt & shaft stayed straight independent of one another. So I sold it way back when for around $50 (I'm guessing) to somebody that might need just the shaft? Long time ago. ... Fast forward a couple decades (and intermittently "sharing" many a good friend's stick - or mostly just using house cues - which are both pretty uncomfortable situations). ... I'd have posted in the buy/sell forum, but instincts tell me I'd rather hear from someone who just happens to be buyin' & sellin' practically about nothin'. My Q of the day is RE:

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/spo/4256899994.html

That cue - I'm GUESSING - seems overpriced. It's really hard for me to substantiate my guess. But when I look at the (only current advertised) price-list (I can find in 5 minutes or less on the Internet) it looks like a "sale price" on that type cue (if sold new) theoretically might be in the $130 neighborhood. So I'm reluctant about buying that cue or even making an offer, beings the doggone case can't be more than $50 and seems maybe the craigslist.org seller seems awful proud of a used cue - even if in "like new" cdn? I'm not looking to try to jipp somebody, still I'm hesitant to offer more than about $120 for that cue w/ case - partly 'cause if I pick the game up again (fairly seriously) I might find a different cue I prefer, in a year or two, then, well, I'm sort of in a minor predicament beings I'm not too fond of the idea of extra equipment (unless it's really valuable) laying around. To my (untrained) eye, the cue LOOKS like an "entry level" Huebler - but does the seller not know that? I'm aware of certain blood/turnip/horse/water situations, nonetheless, is it possible s/he is just following the "sucker born a minute" philosophy? I'm really not into controversy, but is the case by itself really worth more than $50? Maybe I'm missing something here - which I'd be the first to admit(!) - so I'd be much obliged if anybody could clue me in and offer a word or two of advice on how I might approach this. I'd like to own a good cue yet doubt I'll spend more than $200 on one this year and/or maybe even next. If that sounds cheap it's just 'cause I'm not exactly wealthy. ... BTW, how does one test (against rattle or some other weird defect) a used cue shy of meeting the seller someplace with a pool table? Maybe I've answered my own question? IOW, who wouldn't "test drive" a $100+ stick for at least a few minutes?

Best,
Paul

PS: My apologies for the long post, but there's some "background info" that may help explain. I started playing pool at a young age here in the KC metropolitan area. Now I'm 50 years old so that was quite a long while ago. Anyhow, I've always lived within a few hundred miles, and I just recently found out that Huebler is manufactured pretty close, and so MAYBE that explains why - to the best of my recollection - that I don't even remember seeing anything besides a Viking or Huebler until I was at least 20 years old. Now, the number of manufacturers is literally mind boggling to me. Thanks kindly for your time. Any sort of feedback much appreciated. I almost forgot to mention I've generally been pretty comfortable with around 19oz and 13mm (though I'm far less sure about the diameter) so the craigslist cue I'm curious about listed above does have at least that attractive feature. ... At 6'4" I've got large hands and a 12mm seems too thin?

 

[PDX]

Overpriced IMHO. I'd post up a want to buy as in the wanted/for sale forum, stating your budget and preferences. You'll be surprised at what will come out of the woodwork.

 

[ideologist]

People buy cues without testing first on here with no worries. Seybert's is a retailer online who offers a full-return on any cue you buy from them if you don't like it, even if it is chalked. Craigslist is less 'safe', if you will. A true 'buyer beware' environment.

 

[prad]

Here is the online catalog of cues from seyberts.com (100 to 200) range :-
http://www.seyberts.com/catalog/Pool_Cues_100_200-10432.html

I have personally bought a few items from them and have never been dissatisfied.

I believe almost every cue in that price range is going to "hit" the same. Cue selection sometimes depends on the level of your play, for example a beginner won't feel any difference b/w $200 cue and a $2000 cue. It won't matter. So, my advice is if you are just starting to get into pool again start within $200, and almost anything should work.

 

[galipeau]

Overpriced IMHO. I'd post up a want to buy as in the wanted/for sale forum, stating your budget and preferences. You'll be surprised at what will come out of the woodwork.

This is very true! There are a lot of nice people on here that can offer you some great deals.

 

[Ponytail]

I've not been able to find any Huebler cues that are model EH-1 or HE-1 as it shows in the photo.
Here's a link to what I was able to find. http://billiardwarehouse.tripod.com/huebler.html

I would assume this is the AS-E1 Series, as it's a stained maple series, which retails for 160.00 ish. So you're probably pretty close on your guess.

 

[mojarraman]

My apologies, after I looked closer at the forums, it seems like there's an equipment forum I might have posted in...if the moderator sees fit I'm sure s/he will kindly move it...no biggie either way hopefully. These are all very interesting/useful responses thus far. I'm very grateful. I also agree the "buyer beware" should probably be taken to heart w/r/t craigslist now that I think about it.

I've always been more comfortable with a 18-19oz stick - except maybe breaking. I think my Viking was 20oz and slightly too heavy for my tastes. It's funny, when I was about 14 or 15, I read somewhere that Mosconi said, "There are two words in pool - soft & softer." I have no idea if the quote is attributable or not, but I started applying it from the day I read it and it seemed to help - and made sense. Of course, shooting hard has probably been difficult for me because I tended to "practice" (in game situations) softer shots. Nonetheless, practically every (non-serious) pool player I ever saw shot too hard which numbers in the hundreds if not thousands. So Mosconi (or whomever said it) was, IN SOME WAY, correct. So a lighter cue "helped" me accomplish, or at least I thought so...even if it did handicap certain aspects. I really don't know a "final verdict" about all that.

Now I see that the (specific) cues at Seybert's are available in any weight you want. I wouldn't have known that. I'm guessing that may be (one of) the differences between a "custom?" I don't need a custom, but interesting nonetheless.

Thanks Kindly,
Paul

 

[SC02GTP]

You need to check out the wanted/for sale forum. There are true customs listed recently for close to your budget that may work out better for you in the long run.

Buying a custom may protect your initial investment where buying an off the shelf mass produced cue could be throwing good money away. The truth is that most production cues won't sell for half of the buying price if that. With a custom, you have better odds of getting some, if not, most of your investment back.

 

[mcsock]

People buy cues without testing first on here with no worries. Seybert's is a retailer online who offers a full-return on any cue you buy from them if you don't like it, even if it is chalked. Craigslist is less 'safe', if you will. A true 'buyer beware' environment.

As long as it is not modiffied. I got a j/b cue from them. Dealing with them is a good exp. But in their return policy, no mods. I had them put on a Samsara tip and my last name engraved on the butt. I can understand no return, this is not a complant, just a warning. If you are not sure, buy it stock. You can always change tips once you are sure you want the cue.

 

[hang-the-9]

For about $200, if you like a solid wood feel, McDermotts are great http://www.seyberts.com/catalog/McDermott_GS_Series_Cues-10206.html and should play better than the Heublers.

For a bit less with a nice low deflection shaft, Players HXT (or Pure X as they are called now) I think are the top bargain cue you can find. http://www.seyberts.com/catalog/Pure_X_By_Players_Cues-10161.html

One of my pool playing buddies bought a Players HXT cue for under $140, a guy at a pool show saw it and offered him $200 cash on the spot for it.

 

[takeitdown]

If you like Vikings...

I have a Viking I will sell for 200 delivered. It is in very nice shape, perfectly straight and a whole lot nicer than the cue in your post. Rosewood wirh tulipwood inlays and a linen wrap.

Private message me your cell number or email and I will send pictures. You can pay by Paypal so you are safe. Craigs list is either overpriced, junk or a scam ...be very careful there.

I can adjust the weight as you like and replace the tip as well, the Sniper on there is pretty nice and a great layered tip.

 

[PDX]

I forgot I had this.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=344513

 

[seven_7days]

... At 6'4" I've got large hands and a 12mm seems too thin?

for the record, that's a 13mm
or 18mm?!

 

[poolcrazy]

Heres you a copy of the EH brochure

 

[mojarraman]

for the record, that's a 13mm
or 18mm?!

You know seven, that's a good question. Got a good chuckle out of me for sure. I honestly didn't know they made anything that thick but I'm starting to doubt this one is in the stars, i.e. the Huebler. I'd certainly chalk one up for your eye for detail - no pun of course. As per "The truth is that most production cues won't sell for half of the buying price if that" I've little reason to doubt. That's why I looked first at Clist. Then again, "Buying a custom may protect your initial investment where buying an off the shelf mass produced cue could be throwing good money away" is fairly easy to swallow. But what I've trouble understanding is "Craigs list is either overpriced, junk or a scam," unless "be very careful there" means that the first clause isn't necessarily universally true. I might venture that (maybe) half of EVERYTHING (pool-related or not) or more on Clist is overpriced, junk or a scam but that doesn't seem to mean the other half - or remaining 10% or whatever - is a waste of time. What I found on Clist is that computers &tc ("specialty items w/ a broad customer base") were mostly a scam IF the seller was making a living selling them. ... Maybe hang-the-9 has given me some fairly sound advice (I'm guessing) about going in one direction that probably wouldn't lead to a dead end. I do tend to believe I'll end up w/ a cue that has a wrap as opposed to one w/o. I'm starting to think my price point of around $200 may be a more natural minimum - as opposed to my earlier thoughts of that as a max. In the end, I'd be curious to hear from anyone who bought a Clist cue and been highly satisfied, and yes for sure I'm agreed w/ SC02GTP "You need to check out the wanted/for sale forum."

Nonetheless - good points made by all - several things to consider I suppose.
Best,
Paul

 

[mojarraman]

poolcrazy, thanks a million.
That's pretty incredible that you have that brochure up the same day as my post!

 

[hang-the-9]

You know seven, that's a good question. Got a good chuckle out of me for sure. I honestly didn't know they made anything that thick but I'm starting to doubt this one is in the stars, i.e. the Huebler. I'd certainly chalk one up for your eye for detail - no pun of course. As per "The truth is that most production cues won't sell for half of the buying price if that" I've little reason to doubt. That's why I looked first at Clist. Then again, "Buying a custom may protect your initial investment where buying an off the shelf mass produced cue could be throwing good money away" is fairly easy to swallow. But what I've trouble understanding is "Craigs list is either overpriced, junk or a scam," unless "be very careful there" means that the first clause isn't necessarily universally true. I might venture that (maybe) half of EVERYTHING (pool-related or not) or more on Clist is overpriced, junk or a scam but that doesn't seem to mean the other half - or remaining 10% or whatever - is a waste of time. What I found on Clist is that computers &tc ("specialty items w/ a broad customer base") were mostly a scam IF the seller was making a living selling them. ... Maybe hang-the-9 has given me some fairly sound advice (I'm guessing) about going in one direction that probably wouldn't lead to a dead end. I do tend to believe I'll end up w/ a cue that has a wrap as opposed to one w/o. I'm starting to think my price point of around $200 may be a more natural minimum - as opposed to my earlier thoughts of that as a max. In the end, I'd be curious to hear from anyone who bought a Clist cue and been highly satisfied, and yes for sure I'm agreed w/ SC02GTP "You need to check out the wanted/for sale forum."

Nonetheless - good points made by all - several things to consider I suppose.
Best,
Paul

There are many great players that basically play with a $200 cue for most of their pool playing career. How? Most model ranges by a maker only vary in price only due to design. So a McDermott with a wood to wood 3/8x10 pin made in the US for $180 will be made the same way as one for $1,800 with a bunch of inlays. Same thing for other quality production cue makers like Joss and Schon. A plain Joss will hit the same and be made to the same specifications as a fancy Joss that may be 3 times the price.

So all those pros that play with a super nice looking cue that is worth $4,000 are basically playing with the same model that can be had for $1,000 but with $3,000 of "fancy" added on.

About buying something from craigslist, I do it quite often, as long as you look at what they are selling carefully (hit with the cue to make sure there are no rattles, roll it to make sure it's not bent, etc...), you can get some deals. IF you know what the value of the thing was when new. For $200 for that Heubler he is basically looking to get full retail value for a used cue that was less than $200 when new. It may be OK to get for $100 or maybe $80 if it's in good shape.

 

[mojarraman]

hang-the-nine,
Thanks for the sharing your experience, and my first off-the-cuff idea w/o ever reading much about this subject was: "Maybe I should offer the guy $120 and if he bites at least he gets ALL his money out of the case and SOME/MOST of the money out of the cue." Then I read that a certain class of Hueblers might not be such a "firm" hit. My own personal experience (w/ a friend's Huebler) vaguely seems to confirm that... And funny you'd mention an $1,800 cue...

So after more reading, it seems that mid-to-high-end cues --- $300+ or maybe even $350+ is a roundabout way of a rough minimum starting point for high end? --- as long as they are in VGC, can sell for almost (80 or 90%?) as much and possibly a little more than original price esp. for high and very high end? Seems to be just a very generic statement, and that rare/unique/vintage/custom cues don't really have hard & fast sales statistics and/or general guidelines apart from something I've seen about bluebook or whatnot. So I doubt this week I'll stumble on an $800 cue for $300 unless it has flaws or is a knockoff or something. So I suspect it takes hours & hours of firsthand experience in handling/examining/shooting with a fair number of quality cues before one "finds himself a real bargain." On a new cue, as far as I can tell, I get the impression anything over (around) four-hundred dollars is spent on unadulterated looks. Right now, and probably for at least a few years to come, I care little about "looks." If I paid $100 for a pretty darn good used cue right now, today, I'd probably never sell it. Girlfriend likes to play pool for one, and if I upgrade a year from now to a $250-300 stick then she needs one of her own, true? If I did believe that a champion can shoot fairly well w/ a broomstick, still, the off-the-rack cues at most pool halls (less than 20 minutes from here) truly are broomsticks ... and I do believe that a stick w/ (or w/o 'cause I'm vague on terminology) a taper sooner or later stunts your abilities. So even if I get a "cheap" $100-150 cue (used) I want it to be a pretty darn good one.

Here's the funny thing:

A few minutes ago (and for the first time) I read the thread from this month about "Jo$$ customs ... [and] what they used to be" which I won't quote exactly beings I trust that thread's concerns will be resolved permanently (into perpetuity) and ... well ... to be fairly clear - that thread includes one opinion that "the early handcrafted Jo$$ cues are highly valued..." and leaving the rest to imagination, as I nearly cried when I read the young man's concerns about this (presumably unique/unusual) craftsmanship. God forbid I fault another's skills in his/her trade which is why I prefer to assume there are simply fluke-type situations and leave it to anybody (else besides me) to assess - being ignorant about everything that goes into making a cue. Hate to even bring it up - which is mainly behind the effort to disguise/discourage any insinuation that I've knowledge on that topic; but by God, how heartbroken I'd be if I made (and lost) a major investment that couldn't be resolved - and fortunately in the end it sure appears it will be resolved - just none of my business is all. Soooooooo ... AS LUCK WOULD HAVE IT I SPOKE ON THE PHONE YESTERDAY to the purveyor of this cue:
http://kansascity.craigslist.org/spo/4239132545.html

It turns out, he seems like a nice enough guy and might be interested in hiring me to do some home improvement (nothing HUGE - maybe $1000 worth at most) in the very trade which I happen to have been involved in for more than two decades. So we might have a "barter type situation," and if not on that particular cue, then maybe on one of the others he's got for sale. Honestly, I'm not too busy right now and as long as we agree on a dollar amount for the project - IF it even comes to fruition - it seems worth looking into. It's speculative, I won't even look at the installation until tomorrow, and other remodel concerns crop up before I could realistically get started maybe next month or whatever. Anyhow, I'm pretty heavily trying to avoid controversy but lo-and-behold this custom cue crops up. I'd like any opinions about this, but if there's risk of dust kicking up, then I'd surely welcome any PMs on the subject if that's wiser and/or more discreet. I'm not at all opposed to folks offering expertise on specific manufacturers all out in the open and whatnot, just skittish about me being involved. Wouldn't even be an issue - except it appears the production date three/two/ten sorta falls into the era about which there seems to be some "controversy" (about which I'm unqualified to comment). For those "in the know" there's probably no mystery and ... just prefer to leave it there. My apologies about the long post(s) and this is all pretty minor stuff but I really do have a passion for pool and you folks can very probably help me avoid making a mistake. Little mistakes I can handle, but big ones I'd rather avoid. I'm not unsympathetic but my friend Rich once said, "Paul, I'm learning from OTHER peoples mistakes." That was right after I slammed my thumb with a hammer. Quite awhile after the cussing had subsided, that is.
Best,
Paul
PS I am very curious about one other thing. Is there a strong consensus among extremely skilled players that there is LITTLE OR NO DIFFERENCE between a $200 and $300 cue?? In terms of performance, I mean. What I mean is this: if there's a "consensus" that THE BEST $200 McDermott is every bit as good as THE BEST $300 Viking, then maybe there are published articles that express that sentiment, almost exactly, with certain qualifications, whatever they might be? Now I played a lot of tennis at one time, and about all I could say was that the Wilson Pro Staff 5.1 (graphite) racquet which cost about $300 played unbelievably better than (my) $145 (graphite) racquet of a brand that I can't recall. Even though I can't say FOR SURE it was a 5.1, it was a Wilson, and it was a Pro Staff, and when I borrowed it for 10 minutes I couldn't BELIEVE how much better it was (for me). Furthermore, when I talked to the local pro at the club, he said, "Yes, Paul, that Pro Staff is a superb racquet, and undoubtedly your game would benefit by the upgrade." Obviously it didn't have anything to do with the color or anything, but there WAS a consensus (even if only a very minor one) about the Pro Staff (so long as you preferred a small-mid head rather than an oversize head). I've yet to see anything BAD about McDermott cues. I'm leaning (sooner or later - even if next year) towards one day owning a McDermott, but I'm not SET on it. BTW, I've had a hard time finding the "used cues for sale" on the forum so I must not be looking in the right place...ah...there it is found it...this should be interesting.

 

[mojarraman]

The more I read the more I think much of what I put above may be goobeldy gook. By that I mean there are plenty than seem pretty sincere that custom cues CAN easily outperform production ones. I'm probably not skilled enough to be counted among those "plenty." Maybe never will be. So I'm down to several options, relying on the advice of others (inc. addressed to whomever) on a forum or b) spend bookoo hours at the tables w/ those who can physically somehow demonstrate the difference(s) which would be good if viable or c) I also read that cues are available for demo at various venues. I've got the cart a bit ahead of the horse but se la vie. Slightly embarrassing but se la vie. Or live and let live or what not. On the bright side there's nowhere to go but up.
Best,
Paul

 

[hang-the-9]

AS LUCK WOULD HAVE IT I SPOKE ON THE PHONE YESTERDAY to the purveyor of this cue:
http://kansascity.craigslist.org/spo/4239132545.html

It turns out, he seems like a nice enough guy and might be interested in hiring me to do some home improvement (nothing HUGE - maybe $1000 worth at most) in the very trade which I happen to have been involved in for more than two decades. So we might have a "barter type situation," and if not on that particular cue, then maybe on one of the others he's got for sale

That cue is worth about about $250 as it looks to be in new shape, and the guy who wrote up the description is a good ad writer. Much like all those people that sell "rare custom vintage" things that are worth 1/10th of what they ask for it. The guy is pretty much on the level of a scammer trying to sell people $2,000 stereo systems for "only" $300 that are actually worth about $100.

The low serial # does not matter, nor does the rest of the stuff he wrote about it. It's basically this cue http://www.seyberts.com/products/Joss_16_Pool_Cue-103574-10234.html