As I have said before I was in Greg's situation in a tournament about 6 months ago. I didn't say anything to my opponent or the tournament director. I simply played out the rest of the set. I believe that the failure to mark my game was my mistake and I should not have been able to add it several games after the fact. You talk about everyone's character and being selfish for believing the game should not count in this scenario. I find that offensive because I believed the right thing to do was what I did. It was my misfortune as you put it and I dealt with the consequences.
Hardtimes, Swannee, Chris and Greg controversy
- Thread starter PoolCueSickness
- Start date
As I have said before I was in Greg's situation in a tournament about 6 months ago. I didn't say anything to my opponent or the tournament director. I simply played out the rest of the set. I believe that the failure to mark my game was my mistake and I should not have been able to add it several games after the fact. You talk about everyone's character and being selfish for believing the game should not count in this scenario. I find that offensive because I believed the right thing to do was what I did. It was my misfortune as you put it and I dealt with the consequences.
I agree with this post. ^^^^^^^
A few people who don't like the tournament directors decision keep or can't seem to
help themselves from trying to find fault with the player who did nothing wrong, keep
saying well it should have never gotten to the tournament director and I agree.
Please read the above post.
Also when this happens and a player brings it up that much later it certainly might
have affected the match play.
From the 1st Swanee thread, now there's two, and there shouldn't have even been one.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mosconiac View Post
[devil's advocate] the player noted that his error occurred at 4-2 (5-2 in reality). It is plausible that at some point his opponent may have "played the score" and made shot/safety decision(s) based on that score...thereby affecting the outcome of the match. Therefore, it would be unfair to award the game & match at that later time. [/devil's advocate]
The Key Words;
...thereby affecting the outcome of the match
Exactly Right
Jaden, I applaud your stance, but, like I said before, your thinking is upside down. You've got the right attitude, but the wrong reasoning. One needs to be held accountable for their actions. With your thinking, there is no accountability.
Now, let me ask you this- you are at a tournament, there is a dress code, your opponent shows up in the wrong attire. Someone else brings it to the directors attention, and the guy is forfeited. Do you still take the win, or do you concede also because it's not virtuous to win except by making all the balls??
I know most tournaments don't have it spelled out, but I think that the implied and only fair rule is that a player is required to mark their game before the next rack is broken for the game to count.
The problem with this and some other rules in pool, such as calling a pocket, all ball fouls, or letting your opponent shoot the last ball, is that they are frequently ignored because it is seen as the sportsmanlike thing to do. The fact is, upholding the rules is just as sportsmanlike. Anything else is generosity, which I think should not be expected, and should often be refused. I have had several occasions where my opponent has offered to let me get away with touching a ball or tried to concede a game where I dogged the last ball, and I have thanked them for offering and insisted that I hold myself to the tournament rules.If I notice that someone has forgotten to mark a game, I'll call it to their attention, but I don't always notice and I don't expect my opponent to make sure I mark my games.
In my opinion, had Chris, upon realizing the mistake, offered Greg the opportunity to correct his score, Greg should refuse on the grounds that it wouldn't be fair for him to take the game after another rack or racks had been played out. In this case, they called in the TD for a ruling and upheld the decision, which is also a perfectly acceptable thing to do. Greg might be kicking himself for not marking his game, but nobody should blame Chris for asking for a ruling.
The problem with this and some other rules in pool, such as calling a pocket, all ball fouls, or letting your opponent shoot the last ball, is that they are frequently ignored because it is seen as the sportsmanlike thing to do. The fact is, upholding the rules is just as sportsmanlike. Anything else is generosity, which I think should not be expected, and should often be refused. I have had several occasions where my opponent has offered to let me get away with touching a ball or tried to concede a game where I dogged the last ball, and I have thanked them for offering and insisted that I hold myself to the tournament rules.If I notice that someone has forgotten to mark a game, I'll call it to their attention, but I don't always notice and I don't expect my opponent to make sure I mark my games.
In my opinion, had Chris, upon realizing the mistake, offered Greg the opportunity to correct his score, Greg should refuse on the grounds that it wouldn't be fair for him to take the game after another rack or racks had been played out. In this case, they called in the TD for a ruling and upheld the decision, which is also a perfectly acceptable thing to do. Greg might be kicking himself for not marking his game, but nobody should blame Chris for asking for a ruling.
Comments like this gets RED!!:angry:
I play a while with Chris yesterday. He is getting more comfortable with things after getting slammed on here by some adults <cough>. He and Greg are really the only 2 that matter here. They have and will work it out, might even play each other soon again at the H.T. Sunday 9b events.
Atleast someone that has experenced the same issue is responding. Not total speculation by others saying what is right and what is wrong.:deadhorse:
Thank you much
It is not just the fact that Gregg forgot to score his game. He also was unaware of the score. Sometimes you forget to move the penny but you know what the score is. In the fog of war Gregg did not have a firm grasp of the score.
This happens in one pocket all the time when a player leaves a ball in the return after an inning and then the incoming player after running a few balls picks up one of his opponent's balls by mistake and puts it in his side of the ball rack. Now the game gets down the line many innings and then your opponent starts to question the score. I have gotten into a fair amount of disputes because after the ball has been slept for like 30 minutes its is hard to account for it. This can be the margin of victory or defeat and things can get heated. On one hand it is incumbant on players to get their balls out of the return after innings and understand the score on the other hand you don't want to win unfairly.
When you are in the heat of battle you don't always see things as cleary as you would like or act as judiciously as you should.
This happens in one pocket all the time when a player leaves a ball in the return after an inning and then the incoming player after running a few balls picks up one of his opponent's balls by mistake and puts it in his side of the ball rack. Now the game gets down the line many innings and then your opponent starts to question the score. I have gotten into a fair amount of disputes because after the ball has been slept for like 30 minutes its is hard to account for it. This can be the margin of victory or defeat and things can get heated. On one hand it is incumbant on players to get their balls out of the return after innings and understand the score on the other hand you don't want to win unfairly.
When you are in the heat of battle you don't always see things as cleary as you would like or act as judiciously as you should.
Life is a lesson, you learn it as you go........
Both players have learned a lesson here.
Both players have learned a lesson here.
This was how I realized the score was incorrect in my match. I won and forgot to mark. He wins the next two games and then I win another one. Mentally I knew what the score was to that point. I simply hadn't looked up at the score until I won again and marked that game.
Don't get carried away most who have shot pool for any length of time have experienced this.
I happen to think Chris did nothing wrong in this.
For Greg he hopefully learned a valued lesson.
I grew where you had to mark your game before the end of the next game at the latest or you lost it... I am responsible for MY score... Most of the time if I am playing well I never think about the score much.. I mark my beads and shake your hand when one of us wins...
I may not even always watch you mark your score but I am more diligent than I used to be. I had an instance where my opponent started marking on my side when I was 2 games up and ended up winning the match he had lost because a friend of his spectating lied or was wrong as well and the TD took the word of someone in the crowd...
IF I win the first game and there are not assigned sides I always mark on the left... I went up 4-2 my opponent won the next game and marked it on my side 5-2.. I won the next moved to 6-2 when I did the friend stated an error had been made.. They adjusted it to 5-3 with me having 3... Didn't matter how much I argued... Got beat 9-8....
From that point on I make sure to point out who's side is who but it's not my job to babysit you and it's really not something the crowd is to do either....
We have all slept a ball or a game and kicked ourselves... I have had tons of instances gambling where somehow the guy losing thinks he forgot to mark a game up 3-4-5 games ago....
If I notice I'll go with it.. If it's way down the road... Sorry Charlie if I didn't notice and you didn't notice I don't think we are adjusting it now. Otherwise you open up to this being a legitimate move.. Don't mark it now and you can pull it out later if you end up on the hill and need it..All you need is witnesses to the fact you "forgot"..
This is on Greg not Chris and I bet he learns a lesson from it....
Chris
I may not even always watch you mark your score but I am more diligent than I used to be. I had an instance where my opponent started marking on my side when I was 2 games up and ended up winning the match he had lost because a friend of his spectating lied or was wrong as well and the TD took the word of someone in the crowd...
IF I win the first game and there are not assigned sides I always mark on the left... I went up 4-2 my opponent won the next game and marked it on my side 5-2.. I won the next moved to 6-2 when I did the friend stated an error had been made.. They adjusted it to 5-3 with me having 3... Didn't matter how much I argued... Got beat 9-8....
From that point on I make sure to point out who's side is who but it's not my job to babysit you and it's really not something the crowd is to do either....
We have all slept a ball or a game and kicked ourselves... I have had tons of instances gambling where somehow the guy losing thinks he forgot to mark a game up 3-4-5 games ago....
If I notice I'll go with it.. If it's way down the road... Sorry Charlie if I didn't notice and you didn't notice I don't think we are adjusting it now. Otherwise you open up to this being a legitimate move.. Don't mark it now and you can pull it out later if you end up on the hill and need it..All you need is witnesses to the fact you "forgot"..
This is on Greg not Chris and I bet he learns a lesson from it....
Chris
Here is the bigger picture, in 10 years he might look back on this and realize that the game didn't matter, the loss didn't matter, the money didn't matter, but what will matter is the fact that you came on here and spoke well of him in his defense.
Greg learned you have to mark up your own score.
I agree!
The lesson Chris learned is what?
To pay attention to both scores.
So,
1) the score is maintained correctly
2) your opponent can't cheat you
3) if you do nothing wrong you won't have to listen some people
who think that their view is some how morally superior to others.
4) While choosing the whole time to ignore the fact that decisions on
shot selection are based on the score sometimes. There for
you can't rationally just add a game to someones score at a
later point.
5) not to mention a player could not mark a game on purpose
and then when he gets the score even, all of a sudden he could
say, hey I forgot to mark a game up I really ahead. Just to shark you
6) The most important thing I hope he learned.
Even when you have done nothing wrong there will always be people
who think it's their place to tell you what you should have done.
7) Just pay them no attention.
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I have seen matches where games were not marked, early in the set.
BUT!!!! How in the world do you play the hill/hill game and not know it?
Cmon folks........both players had to know that the score was hill/hill? The game was finished and nobody wins? WTH???
I understand if the score is 2-2 in a race to 9, but hill/hill and neither player knew?
BUT!!!! How in the world do you play the hill/hill game and not know it?
Cmon folks........both players had to know that the score was hill/hill? The game was finished and nobody wins? WTH???
I understand if the score is 2-2 in a race to 9, but hill/hill and neither player knew?
Where is it possible to attend college on a pool scholarship??????????
Thanks
Kevin
Lindenwood University St. Charles Missouri
I think both guys will learn from all of this and will be better for it and so will the game. It was really a no win situation for the both of them since I really believe they have a love for the game and respect for it and their opponents.
Imagine this if you will: First assume each player is a stand up guy with equally the best morals and ethics for the game. Then lets see how it may have played out then. Chris finds out that Greg had forgot to mark a game and becomes aware of it and being an moral and upstanding guy, insists that Greg move on in the match. Then Greg, being an upstanding and moral person himself, insists that it's his error and that Chris should move on in the match. It's a no win situation for both since no matter which one goes on and continues playing after that, each one would feel like crap and feel that they shouldn't be the one moving on to the next round.
I realize that isn't what happened in this case, but if each person had the same great morals and ethics that we think all players should have, then there would probably be another discussion on who had the higher morals and ethics for moving on because the other person insisted.
I believe each of them have certainly learned from this and be a better person for it and find no fault with either. I've damn sure made my share of mistakes and won't be casting a stone. Both are great guys and great players. Just my take.
Imagine this if you will: First assume each player is a stand up guy with equally the best morals and ethics for the game. Then lets see how it may have played out then. Chris finds out that Greg had forgot to mark a game and becomes aware of it and being an moral and upstanding guy, insists that Greg move on in the match. Then Greg, being an upstanding and moral person himself, insists that it's his error and that Chris should move on in the match. It's a no win situation for both since no matter which one goes on and continues playing after that, each one would feel like crap and feel that they shouldn't be the one moving on to the next round.
I realize that isn't what happened in this case, but if each person had the same great morals and ethics that we think all players should have, then there would probably be another discussion on who had the higher morals and ethics for moving on because the other person insisted.
I believe each of them have certainly learned from this and be a better person for it and find no fault with either. I've damn sure made my share of mistakes and won't be casting a stone. Both are great guys and great players. Just my take.