John and Lou, the plain truth

[JB Cases]

Knowing where to hit the ball is probably the easiest part of pool. I don't know about you, but I set up "Virtual Pool" on a PC, played a few games with a total banger, and they learned the concept almost instantly. And then, I could see a massive improvement in their game almost immediately. They still missed shots, but it was because of execution errors (ie: fundamentals) not an inability to know where to hit the ball.

You had months to prepare for this match and still showed up with that ridiculous stroke? How does that even happen?

CTE could be the greatest system on the planet but your performance could never be used for an example because you didn't just miss a lot of shots, you missed them badly. And if a $10,000 gamble isn't enough for you to "bother" to fix those glaring errors than what is? Presumably nothing.

I knew that even if you missed shots badly and lost this match, you'd still make excuses. Secretly I hoped not, but I knew...

I wasn't prepared. I let myself get into an altercation just before the match and had no clue that I was playing that freaking quick. My heart rate was probably twice as high as it should have been. When I just watched it on Ustream it was horribly painful for me to see myself rushing like that. Knowing how I felt and watching myself in hindsight I realize how incredibly stupid I was to engage a hostile person right before the match. But I did and it cost me.

If I had won the match would it then have meant that CTE is the best thing ever and makes champions all by itself? Would you have bowed to me and said that? Of course not. Nor would Nick and nor would Lou. Lou and I talked about it after the match and he genuinely believes that CTE and similar methods are all bullshit. Obviously we will simply always disagree about that but at least we don't have to attack each other over it any more.

What some of you guys have failed to understand from day one, CTE is just ONE COMPONENT of the game. Stroke, speed, knowledge etc... are the other ones.

We have never said anything differently.

As for the match I have no excuses. I failed to prepare myself adequately. Lou did and his knowledge and ability to stay outwardly calm and focused made for a solid performance. Not only did I learn some one pocket moves from him but I also learned a lot about handling a situation like this.

I can analyze the match as well and since I was the one playing I think I have a little more insight into my own performance than you or anyone else. Only one other person on the planet knows as much about it as me and his perspective is the yin to my yang because he was the opponent.

Any time a person wins or loses there is a reason or reasons. You can call it an excuse if you like but the facts are the facts.

I am not saying I would have beaten Lou if we had both played our very best. I am saying that OBVIOUSLY I dogged a lot of shots and I wish I hadn't. Those shots were not at all representative of where I am at as a player but they are representative of where my head was at as a person.

 

[TATE]

I wasn't prepared. I let myself get into an altercation just before the match and had no clue that I was playing that freaking quick. My heart rate was probably twice as high as it should have been. When I just watched it on Ustream it was horribly painful for me to see myself rushing like that. Knowing how I felt and watching myself in hindsight I realize how incredibly stupid I was to engage a hostile person right before the match. But I did and it cost me.

If I had won the match would it then have meant that CTE is the best thing ever and makes champions all by itself? Would you have bowed to me and said that? Of course not. Nor would Nick and nor would Lou. Lou and I talked about it after the match and he genuinely believes that CTE and similar methods are all bullshit. Obviously we will simply always disagree about that but at least we don't have to attack each other over it any more.

What some of you guys have failed to understand from day one, CTE is just ONE COMPONENT of the game. Stroke, speed, knowledge etc... are the other ones.

We have never said anything differently.

As for the match I have no excuses. I failed to prepare myself adequately. Lou did and his knowledge and ability to stay outwardly calm and focused made for a solid performance. Not only did I learn some one pocket moves from him but I also learned a lot about handling a situation like this.

I can analyze the match as well and since I was the one playing I think I have a little more insight into my own performance than you or anyone else. Only one other person on the planet knows as much about it as me and his perspective is the yin to my yang because he was the opponent.

Any time a person wins or loses there is a reason or reasons. You can call it an excuse if you like but the facts are the facts.

I am not saying I would have beaten Lou if we had both played our very best. I am saying that OBVIOUSLY I dogged a lot of shots and I wish I hadn't. Those shots were not at all representative of where I am at as a player but they are representative of where my head was at as a person.

Let's not forget, you played with your own money and Lou had to be staked. I have ZERO respect for him. You had him pegged right, John.

 

[JB Cases]

Could we all please drop it?

We can discuss aspects of this match for a long time but I'd be really happy if we could just be peaceful about it.

I talked with a couple pros about how they handle the pressure and they said it's a job and they treat it that way. They actually have a lot of respect for bangers who step up and play way out of their comfort zone.

Regardless of what was said before the match - and to be sure plenty was said on both sides - we both showed up and we played and it's done.

I don't mind at all if the video is dissected and some of my shots are and body movements are used as examples of what not to do. They should be used for that. And then there were shots that were well done and those should be pointed out as well.

Let's focus on the game and what we can learn from it. No need for any of us to make new enemies over this.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Let's not forget, you played with your own money and Lou had to be staked. I have ZERO respect for him. You had him pegged right, John.

So it's pitiful to gamble for 10k, even though it's NOT HURTING ANYONE, but it's worse when you're being staked?

You sir, make no sense.

 

[dom_poppa]

JB needs to fine tune his mechanics. Like a golfer he needs to be consistent with the practice swing. When you get down, you are committed to the shot. Don't stop, when you are down. If you need to readjust, then stand back up and start all over again.

Keep calm and shoot all shots with the same timing. I try to limit myself around 5 to 7 seconds after getting down and lining up.

I think if JB plays Lou again, he would be alright. Don't bet that much though.

 

[shinobi]

If I had won the match would it then have meant that CTE is the best thing ever and makes champions all by itself? Would you have bowed to me and said that? Of course not. Nor would Nick and nor would Lou.

Could you think of a more extreme example? By that measure, the opposite example might be that when you lost the match, fans of CTE would quit pool and jump off a bridge.

A more realistic example -- If you had potted and banked well, many would be influenced to give CTE a deeper look. Some more than others.

On the other hand, if you prepare for months, including private lessons with Stan Shuffett, and then play as you did... I'm sure many people on the fence about CTE would take a pass on it. If for no other reason, they can probably already match that standard of play (or higher) without it.

I enjoyed watching the match and appreciate it was streamed. Thanks to you both.

 

[chefjeff]

Thank you for stating what should be obvious in such an eloquent way.

He did it the same way you did it: Via ignorance and arrogance.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Beiber lvr - you are correct. It takes a great degree of intelligent and understanding to know which part of your money should be pissed away on gambling and which part should be saved for food and shelter and general survival.

So let TATE tell us all how to live and spend. That is the only way to do it right. He alone knows.

Tell us, wise sir, what should I spend on food today?

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Get off your high horse already.

Why don't you go ahead and provide just an ounce of proof that the money gambled by either player took away from any "food and shelter and general survival."

(snip).

I waiting for his evidence of my hypocrisy that he accused me of.

Surely, he can't be wrong about that, too? Such a wise one, making two mistakes? Impossible!!!

Jeff Livingston

 

[TheThaiger]

What some of you guys have failed to understand from day one, CTE is just ONE COMPONENT of the game. Stroke, speed, knowledge etc... are the other ones.

Some guys? Just one, John. Only one.

 

[TheThaiger]

Could we all please drop it?

Lol.

............

 

[naji]

I wasn't prepared. I let myself get into an altercation just before the match and had no clue that I was playing that freaking quick. My heart rate was probably twice as high as it should have been. When I just watched it on Ustream it was horribly painful for me to see myself rushing like that. Knowing how I felt and watching myself in hindsight I realize how incredibly stupid I was to engage a hostile person right before the match. But I did and it cost me.

If I had won the match would it then have meant that CTE is the best thing ever and makes champions all by itself? Would you have bowed to me and said that? Of course not. Nor would Nick and nor would Lou. Lou and I talked about it after the match and he genuinely believes that CTE and similar methods are all bullshit. Obviously we will simply always disagree about that but at least we don't have to attack each other over it any more.

What some of you guys have failed to understand from day one, CTE is just ONE COMPONENT of the game. Stroke, speed, knowledge etc... are the other ones.

We have never said anything differently.

As for the match I have no excuses. I failed to prepare myself adequately. Lou did and his knowledge and ability to stay outwardly calm and focused made for a solid performance. Not only did I learn some one pocket moves from him but I also learned a lot about handling a situation like this.

I can analyze the match as well and since I was the one playing I think I have a little more insight into my own performance than you or anyone else. Only one other person on the planet knows as much about it as me and his perspective is the yin to my yang because he was the opponent.

Any time a person wins or loses there is a reason or reasons. You can call it an excuse if you like but the facts are the facts.

I am not saying I would have beaten Lou if we had both played our very best. I am saying that OBVIOUSLY I dogged a lot of shots and I wish I hadn't. Those shots were not at all representative of where I am at as a player but they are representative of where my head was at as a person.

JB i respect you for your write up, you are pretty much like me, i have been playing one pocket for 35 years, sure expert in moves and strategy, but like you in practice i shoot the light out, and when in a hot match i miss the easiest ball; not until couple of years back, i overhauled my stance to the Lee Brit style, changed my stroke, my aim completely now i am confident i do not miss normal shots; Being outside observer you missed few shots because your stroke was not parallel to the line of aim in some cases, mainly due to your stance, i am positive your aim is flawless. Best of luck.

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou,

I assumed that when you had to check with your "backers" you weren't willing to put up your own. Odd, since you had the nuts, so I figured you couldn't afford to gamble 10K

Anyway, you both acted childishly throughout the posts and banter - trying to get under each others skins. Yes, pitiful for a mature man. Plus you baited John and egged him on.

I hope that you found this moment rewarding. You got your revenge on John Barton. That makes you big.


Chris

My portion of the bet, several thousand, was what I was comfortable with. While I could have covered the whole $10K, from a financial point of view, I thought it was too far out of line for a $20 a game player. Hell, what I did end up betting was out of line for a $20 player but I wanted to test myself and I did. John, on the other hand, regularly plays for more, so while $10K was still more than he's bet before, proportionately his bet was probably no more out of line for him than mine was for me.

And you are wrong about the revenge issue. That is not what this was about and that you would frame it that way is another illustration of your small-mindedness.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JAM]

My portion of the bet, several thousand, was what I was comfortable with. While I could have covered the whole $10K, from a financial point of view, I thought it was too far out of line for a $20 a game player. Hell, what I did end up betting was out of line for a $20 player but I wanted to test myself and I did. John, on the other hand, regularly plays for more, so while $10K was still more than he's bet before, proportionately his bet was probably no more out of line for him than mine was for me.

This line of thinking is common sense and smart. I agree with your thoughts on this topic for sure. :yes:

About Tate, he's an asset to this forum, as are you. Both of you are great AzB-ers.

 

[JAM]

Could we all please drop it?

We can discuss aspects of this match for a long time but I'd be really happy if we could just be peaceful about it.

I talked with a couple pros about how they handle the pressure and they said it's a job and they treat it that way. They actually have a lot of respect for bangers who step up and play way out of their comfort zone.

Regardless of what was said before the match - and to be sure plenty was said on both sides - we both showed up and we played and it's done.

I don't mind at all if the video is dissected and some of my shots are and body movements are used as examples of what not to do. They should be used for that. And then there were shots that were well done and those should be pointed out as well.

Let's focus on the game and what we can learn from it. No need for any of us to make new enemies over this.

Exactly right.

No matter what anyone says, you and LOu both put your money where your mouth is. I would venture to guess the majority of naysayers on this thread wouldn't step up to the plate for a C note, much less 10 dimes.

Thanks for the entertainment and lessons learned!

 

[lfigueroa]

I gave Tate a greenie, but I never came out and said either of you jeopardized your family or even yourselves. Am I pitiful? If so, why?

I have many reasons why I think this was an absurd amount of cabbage to toss around like you are both seasoned professional gamblers. Part of it is growing up with a gambler dad and bookie uncles. Denial runs deep in gamblers. My dad never accepted that he lost my college education over the course of many years of gambling, and he wasn't even a high roller like you two want to be.

$10K lost is $10K that could have been put to better use somewhere else. That's not a value judgment, it's just a fact. But I never once said you don't have the right to risk that much of your own money.

I actually liked watching the match a lot, and saw just about every shot made the first night, but I would have found it much more appealing if you had agreed to a figure 1/10th as large as the one you decided upon. That would have at least felt like a reasonable and realistic wager.

Once again, here is his original post:

"This match happened because two guys shot off their mouths on the internet. Plain and simple. It is shameful behavior. A whole pack of people piled on too, which made it worse. There is nothing here to be proud of, nothing noble. Does either guy really seem like they can afford to gamble 10K or 20K on a pool match? Not to me they don't.

Furthermore, any of you so-called gamblers who respect someone for gambling their hard earned money, their family's savings or children's potential college fund on a pool game needs to seriously examine their values. There is a culture among gamblers that talks of respect for what is basically reckless, self-destructive behavior. Do we praise someone who falls down stinking drunk every night? Yet we praise someone who gambles large?

I gamble for entertainment, just enough to sweat. No harm in that. We are fathers, workers, employers, husbands. At some point, as mature men, we need to accept that our actions affect a lot of people who depend on us and act responsibly We shouldn't let our ego's dictate our actions. I watched the match and enjoyed it. But let's not forget why this match really took place.

The plain truth is, it was pitiful."


Last I checked, giving green means you approve of his post. So, if you approve of him sanctimoniously sticking his nose into someone else's wallet with not a scintilla of proof that either participant made a bet that in any way jeopardized the welfare of their respective families, then yes.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

This might make sense except that you said:

"One pocket was not the best game for John, because one pocket is not a run out game."

and if you look at the match stats by AtLarge:


• Lou had 8 runs of more than 3 balls, and he won all 7 games in which those runs occurred. John had just 1 run of more than 3 balls (a run of 5), and he won that game.

.......... Lou had runs of 7 balls (2 times), 6 balls (1), 5 balls (3), 4 balls (2), 3 balls (6), 2 balls (6), and 1 ball (45, including 9 by John)

.......... John had runs of 5 balls (1), 3 balls (7), 2 balls (11), and 1 ball (38, including 10 by Lou)

John's inability to run balls greatly hampered his effort.

Lou didn't by any stretch out move John he out shot him.

John also sold out way to many times, as the games when he didn't
that lasted longer than 36 mins. according to the stats John won
5 out of 6 of them.

"John won 5 of the 6 games that lasted longer than 36 minutes; Lou won 8 of the 9 games that lasted less than 36 minutes."

Also according to the stats above, when he sold out, he lost 8 out of the 9 games and they were fast games because he
sold out and the fact that when he sold out Lou could run balls.

Holy cow! Where did those stats come from?! Very cool, froze.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I agree with the OP. Look, people have the right to do what they want with their own money. People don't have the right to be free of criticism about their public behavior.

And criticism is usually not very nice, but I think Tate saw a lot of people giving praise and respect for making this bet. That matters. It conveys a message to others that this was smart, praiseworthy behavior.

In that context, I think it's reasonable to point out what (to many of us) is mind-numbingly obvious: That laying out $10k on an Internet-argument-turned-ego-bet is not smart nor praiseworthy. It is fun to watch though.

It was fun, a once in a lifetime (I think) thing. It was a rush. It harmed no one and both of us knew going in that it would sting for the guy that lost. But no way was there going to be any kind of lasting damage.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Thank you for stating what should be obvious in such an eloquent way.

I can live with not smart and it being about ego. What I cannot let go unchallenged is the notion that it harmed my family in any way.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Beiber lvr - you are correct. It takes a great degree of intelligent and understanding to know which part of your money should be pissed away on gambling and which part should be saved for food and shelter and general survival.

I think everyone here knows from stories I've written in the past that my wife and I live well.

I'm sorry if you do not.

Losing the bet would not have changed what we eat (at home and at really good restaurants here and abroad), where we live (the house has been paid off for over 10 years), nor survival seeing as we we pretty much do what we want we we want to.

I'm guessing you are not in the same boat and are projecting your situation onto mine.

Lou Figueroa