Did The JB vs Lou Match Settle The Great Aiming Debate Once & For All?

This is not a dig on JB. So many of us have a passion for pool. We all want to get better and some times we are stubborn or we look for the magic or quick fix. Whether it's tips, shafts, aiming systems or what the pros use. I think it's clear from watching the match. That no matter what you try to improve your game. Nothing will help until you develop a stroke. I tried a few different things and finally told myself. Fix your stroke and that's all I worked on. My stroke still needs some work but it's better than its ever been. With my stroke being better my game got better.

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Kickin' Chicken said:
Like I said, what you like may not be what I like.

I prefer going center to edge with a knife and fork. :grin-square::eek:

best,
brian kc
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I go for the part that looks the tuffest & work my way to the tender strip on the outside.
Now my girlfriend does the exact opposite. I tried to tell her she's doing it wrong but she just won't listen. I told her if she eats the best part first she will never enjoy the rest of the steak as much.
 
jburkm002 said:
This is not a dig on JB. So many of us have a passion for pool. We all want to get better and some times we are stubborn or we look for the magic or quick fix. Whether it's tips, shafts, aiming systems or what the pros use. I think it's clear from watching the match. That no matter what you try to improve your game. Nothing will help until you develop a stroke. I tried a few different things and finally told myself. Fix your stroke and that's all I worked on. My stroke still needs some work but it's better than its ever been. With my stroke being better my game got better.

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I promise you when my head is right, my stroke improves. This match was not won or lost because of any system or stroke, it was because of what each of us had going on in our heads.

CTE is by no means a magic fix and I didn't seek it out looking for something to improve my game. Hal Houle came to me and gave me the gift of knowledge of aiming systems and that improved my game. Stan Shuffett's instruction improved my game. He did his best to improve my form but at the end I threw it away at crunch time for my own ego.

Again the term 'magic fix' is another one like religion that has been used as a weapon for years when no one who teaches or promotes these methods has ever said anything like it. We have said it's "like magic" because that's the feeling it inspires in those who use these methods and see the results.

One thing I know for sure, I personally would not want to be playing without this knowledge. I can fix my stroke, anyone can fix their stroke, that's a matter of hard work on the table and burning it into your muscles. I can fix jumping up. But I could likely not stumble on the knowledge by myself.
 
JB Cases said:
There should never have been an argument about it in the first place. Debate fine. Argument no. Defamation no. Name calling no. And that goes for both sides.

And that's what the match was about for me.
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That's the biggest problem on Az, to many people just want to argue & stir up shit.
Not just speaking about Lou's & your battles but in general.
 
voiceofreason said:
What is an aiming system?

Are there really players out there that do not aim? Don't be daft.
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I don't think anybody in the "feel" camp is claiming that they don't aim. It's the use of the word "system" that provides all the fuel for animosity.

A system is usually a complex set of specific components that are stitched together to create a desired action, or a cohesive set of actions, designed to achieve a predictable result. This could be a control system for guided missiles, a computer operating system, a parimutuel betting system, etc. If you look at any of the pivot-based aiming systems, they seem to fit this description.

Just trying to send the CB into the ghost ball position, or using a portion of the ferrule to align with the outside of the OB, is certainly a way of aiming the shot, but hardly fits the definition of an "aiming system" in my mind.

The debate all along has been that a small and extremely vocal minority feel that such a system is an impossibility, even without any personal experience with any of the systems. The bitter resentment that arose from these debates comes from this same minority relentlessly attacking those who have actually tried these systems and have found them useful.
 
I wasn't trying say anything against aiming systems or even tips and LD shafts. I believe in aiming systems. I believe a shaft that shoots straighter has to be better for anyone's game. I was just pointing out that before we try anything to verify we have a good stroke. If you have a bad stroke you could say an aiming system or LD shaft sucks. Why because we still have the same flaws that can not be cover up by something new.

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Diamond69 said:
To me it is very simple.

TO EACH THEIR OWN!

If you don't use one, fine.

If you do use one, fine. Whether it works as advertised, helps beginners get better faster, or just a placebo effect that gives a player confidence.

I never understood why anyone would want to disprove something that they don't need or use.
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Tap, tap. And concerning the bolded part, it must be something in the food (those Monsanto bastards and their GMO crap!), for today's cling-to-a-signpost extremist society that is hell-bent on converting everyone to their point of view.

Did you watch right after the match concluded, after the handshake and pictures, when JB and Lou were discussing amongst themselves the idea of burying the hatchet once and for all? What did you see? They engaged in a continuation of "forced conversion" to the other's side -- especially on JB's part. Even after all is said and done, John wanted to "convert" Lou, and vice-versa -- Lou wanted to "convert" John that aiming systems are crap. All this, instead of letting it go.

As you can see the match "proved" NOTHING. What it did do, is to instill a lot more respect for each other. And that perhaps is the best result of all -- couldn't ask for any better.

-Sean
 
I could see in your match that you had technical knowledge of the game. I could also see you appeared to be using a system on banks which you did very well. Maybe a different game would have been better and allowed you to work out the kinks in your stroke. Or to get into stroke as they say. Not a fan of one pocket but I did enjoy the match. Fix that stroke and I bet your wins go up.

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How do you aim at a object ball without using some system? I use
Ghost ball I see the point Of contact and I can hit it. Any of the other systems if they work for you that's great if not use something else. I hit a few balls using toi and I made the balls but I liked my way better it felt more natural to me. I don't understand why that if you don't use a certain system why you would knock it, it probably works for someone else.


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Yes, to each his own, and may civility reign on this forum.

One match doesn't prove anything about any system.

As an outsider looking in on the CTE debate, the detractors of CTE seemed to be saying
1. The explanations of CTE are near-incomprehensible, and
2. You may be making balls, but the laws of physics demand that you are making some unaccounted-for adjustments

Whatever.

If it works for you, I'm happy - keep on doing what you are doing.

I wish I could have seen the match. Is it posted anywhere?
 
sfleinen said:
Tap, tap. And concerning the bolded part, it must be something in the food (those Monsanto bastards and their GMO crap!), for today's cling-to-a-signpost extremist society that is hell-bent on converting everyone to their point of view.

Did you watch right after the match concluded, after the handshake and pictures, when JB and Lou were discussing amongst themselves the idea of burying the hatchet once and for all? What did you see? They engaged in a continuation of "forced conversion" to the other's side -- especially on JB's part. Even after all is said and done, John wanted to "convert" Lou, and vice-versa -- Lou wanted to "convert" John that aiming systems are crap. All this, instead of letting it go.

As you can see the match "proved" NOTHING. What it did do, is to instill a lot more respect for each other. And that perhaps is the best result of all -- couldn't ask for any better.

-Sean
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Neither of us were trying to convert the other one. All I said was that I genuinely think that Lou would see the merit in the methods if he would get together with Stan. Lou said he genuinely doesn't want to spend time with any method he feels is useless.

At the end of the day I can respect anyone who sticks by their conviction. In leather working there are methods that some people swear by and others think that are not needed. I am the type who tries them out and if I find them useful then I keep them and if not then I forget about them.

Others don't even try them because they already know that they have no use for them. That's fine.

Where I have a problem as I explained to Lou at the end is in actively trying to stop people from learning them. And it's my perception that continually interrupting conversations about them to voice your opinion that the methods are useless IS actively trying to prevent others from using them. Now, in fairness Lou said he should be allowed to express his opinion.

I agree but it should be clear to everyone that this is where discussions turn into arguments and arguments turn into snide remarks and snide remarks turn into challenge matches. :-)

So this all boils down to the new way to hustle being attacking another man's methods.

Kidding but no one was trying to convert, we were conversing and I paid 10k to have the conversation.
 
JB Cases said:
Neither of us were trying to convert the other one. All I said was that I genuinely think that Lou would see the merit in the methods if he would get together with Stan. Lou said he genuinely doesn't want to spend time with any method he feels is useless.

At the end of the day I can respect anyone who sticks by their conviction. In leather working there are methods that some people swear by and others think that are not needed. I am the type who tries them out and if I find them useful then I keep them and if not then I forget about them.

Others don't even try them because they already know that they have no use for them. That's fine.

Where I have a problem as I explained to Lou at the end is in actively trying to stop people from learning them. And it's my perception that continually interrupting conversations about them to voice your opinion that the methods are useless IS actively trying to prevent others from using them. Now, in fairness Lou said he should be allowed to express his opinion.

I agree but it should be clear to everyone that this is where discussions turn into arguments and arguments turn into snide remarks and snide remarks turn into challenge matches. :-)

So this all boils down to the new way to hustle being attacking another man's methods.

Kidding but no one was trying to convert, we were conversing and I paid 10k to have the conversation.
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John:

You may be able to see the transformation that I, myself, went through in my maturity on these boards. In the beginning of my membership on these boards, I'd jump into everything -- I do have an opinion on most things -- but learned, over time, that sometimes expressing that opinion causes more heartache -- for me -- than it gives satisfaction for the interaction.

And, while exercising [learned] restraint, I found that I was able to digest things a bit more, and even warmed up to aiming systems. (If you ask Dave S., you'll know that he and I spend a lot of time discussing systems and their virtues.) I still play by my "system" -- which you know is back-of-ball -- but I'm actively pursuing knowledge of other systems, all in the name of following my own advice to be a consummate cue sports student.

Why am I saying this? Restraint. I had to learn it. And I believe many others here need to learn it, too. It's not an easy thing to learn, being as passionate as you, Lou, myself, and many other readers here are. That's why we're here in this forum. (Well, many of us -- some are just trolls. ;) )

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
As you can see the match "proved" NOTHING. What it did do, is to instill a lot more respect for each other. And that perhaps is the best result of all -- couldn't ask for any better.

-Sean
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I like this part the best.
This game needs honorable opponents.

...and I really enjoyed the match.

And I would rather watch one-pocket and straight pool than any rotation game.
 
I didn't see this match as a system battle at all. No single match could prove anything in that department. The only proof I see here, is that its a bad idea to play a guy at his own game.... especially 1 pocket.

John showed some heart getting back into the match, I give him that. But heart is rarely enough to overcome many years of 1 pocket experience. If your strategy is to hope or assume the other guy will fold, and you're all in......you just made yourself a bad game.
 
Didn't the argument start a decade ago ( or older than that ) when someone said Hal's system was the nuts ? It didn't matter where the pockets were.
Then new systems from that came out. Which I wonder why b/c HH's system was already supposed to be the nuts.
 
Bambu said:
I didn't see this match as a system battle at all. No single match could prove anything in that department. The only proof I see here, is that its a bad idea to play a guy at his own game.... especially 1 pocket.

John showed some heart getting back into the match, I give him that. But heart is rarely enough to overcome many years of 1 pocket experience. If your strategy is to hope or assume the other guy will fold, and you're all in......you just made yourself a bad game.
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It's not a bad game.
 
As has been said, the Lou-vs-John match proved nothing as far as CTE aiming goes. It didn't prove that CTE works, and it didn't prove that it doesn't. There may never be a match that will prove, or disprove, CTE because it's not the kind of thing that can be easily done.

The 10K match was interesting; but from an entertainment standpoint, only. In my opinion, what would make a better match for comparison's sake would be a 14.1 match between Lou and Stan. Both men are very experienced in 14.1, and 14.1 is a game where there is a greater number of cut shots, which would give a little clearer picture of the aiming consistency achieved by each man.

Would there be any interest from Lou and Stan in putting a match like that together?

Roger
 
Roger Long said:
As has been said, the Lou-vs-John match proved nothing as far as CTE aiming goes. It didn't prove that CTE works, and it didn't prove that it doesn't. There may never be a match that will prove, or disprove, CTE because it's not the kind of thing that can be easily done.

The 10K match was interesting; but from an entertainment standpoint, only. In my opinion, what would make a better match for comparison's sake would be a 14.1 match between Lou and Stan. Both men are very experienced in 14.1, and 14.1 is a game where there is a greater number of cut shots, which would give a little clearer picture of the aiming consistency achieved by each man.

Would there be any interest from Lou and Stan in putting a match like that together?

Roger
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I doubt anyone is that naive.
How about a system player like Stevie Moore versus Alex Pagulayan?
 
JB Cases said:
It's not a bad game.
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I agree -- it was most definitely NOT a bad game. Everyone's engaging in "20/20 hindsight" but that hindsight is imagined. John had just as much a chance as Lou. And look what happened -- the games that Lou got in the beginning were due to severe mistakes by John, and likewise, during the middle / latter half of the match, Lou seemingly went to sleep a bit, and John capitalized. (John actually started moving better than Lou towards the middle of the match.) It wasn't a runaway.

-Sean
 
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