Subjective Aiming v Objective Aiming

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Interestingly, after conversations with a few pro friends of mine, I've actually reached a point where I don't consciously use a system on my more routine shots. I find that after a year or two of using the systems routinely, my sense of alignment and visualization - what "looks" right - has been enhanced so much that I can tell, system or not, that I'm lined up right. I don't consciously use or not use the system, although on tougher shots I 100% use it. But on easier to medium shots, I don't think about it and let it happen. I may be in the minority, but I've seen no decline in my ball pocketing, perhaps just a sloppy shot here and there. I did this after being told not to lose my "feel" and connection to the pocket by being too robotic with everything. I know that goes counter to most aiming system people, and my friends recommending this were not aiming system users, but I respected their opinion and think there's something to it. I think after a while, less and less conscious thought is needed to get down and come into the shot in a consistent and correct manner. I can still "see" the lines, angles, etc., I just don't need to stand behind the ball for 5 seconds to always consciously visualize them, if that makes sense. However, I always have something more specific to fall back on in pressure situations and on tougher cuts and longer shots.


Anyway, that's my rambling thoughts for the day. Maybe it will help you or someone else, maybe it won't. Maybe no one will read it... :)
Scott

Scott, no aiming system advocate is going to disagree with you on this part. When learning a system, you must be detail oriented and rather robotic. Such as CTE manual pivot. You then progress to CTE Pro One which is less robotic. Then, over enough time, your subconscious lines up using the system and not your conscious mind. Just like when you walk, you don't think about it, but your mind knows the correct "steps" to take to enable you to walk.

I find it beneficial to at times shoot a few racks off all with the conscious mind, just to reinforce the subconscious mind on just what I want it to do. Played correctly, I feel like I am just looking at the ball, getting down, no or only a few warmup strokes, and shoot the ball in the hole. Most of my conscious thinking while standing is setting in my mind just where I want to hit the cb and at what speed for position play.
 
Scott, no aiming system advocate is going to disagree with you on this part. When learning a system, you must be detail oriented and rather robotic. Such as CTE manual pivot. You then progress to CTE Pro One which is less robotic. Then, over enough time, your subconscious lines up using the system and not your conscious mind. Just like when you walk, you don't think about it, but your mind knows the correct "steps" to take to enable you to walk.

I find it beneficial to at times shoot a few racks off all with the conscious mind, just to reinforce the subconscious mind on just what I want it to do. Played correctly, I feel like I am just looking at the ball, getting down, no or only a few warmup strokes, and shoot the ball in the hole. Most of my conscious thinking while standing is setting in my mind just where I want to hit the cb and at what speed for position play.

Neil, To add to your thoughts:

It is natural and EASY to always be aware of the the visuals that lead to proper alignment. It is also natural and EASY to be aware of the sweep that occurs.

I WANT my FOCUS on specific things at certain times. My focus can shift from visuals to sweep to grip to certain aspects of the stroke. The focuses add up to proper concentration for the task at hand.

Stan Shuffett
 
Neil, To add to your thoughts:

It is natural and EASY to always be aware of the the visuals that lead to proper alignment. It is also natural and EASY to be aware of the sweep that occurs.

I WANT my FOCUS on specific things at certain times. My focus can shift from visuals to sweep to grip to certain aspects of the stroke. The focuses add up to proper concentration for the task at hand.

Stan Shuffett

I agree with you. I guess what I am trying to say is that when playing well, I'm not standing there for 10 sec. getting my visuals. I am aware of going through the process, and likewise aware if I didn't properly see the visuals. Lately, once I am down, I seldom move. Seldom even take a warmup stroke. I am just setting once again exactly what speed I want to go forward with, and still at the point of having to be quite aware of exactly how I am gripping the cue. Then just slowly pull back, making sure to stay on the exact same line, pause, then just go forward when my subconscious says to.

I guess I could say I am highly focused, but on the overall process, not any one deliberate thing. Highly focused, yet just being "aware". Nothing taken for granted, but nothing over thought about either. Just like walking, letting the subconscious do what it does best. Train it with what you want it to do, and how to do it, then let it do what it does best,.
 
I agree with you. I guess what I am trying to say is that when playing well, I'm not standing there for 10 sec. getting my visuals. I am aware of going through the process, and likewise aware if I didn't properly see the visuals. Lately, once I am down, I seldom move. Seldom even take a warmup stroke. I am just setting once again exactly what speed I want to go forward with, and still at the point of having to be quite aware of exactly how I am gripping the cue. Then just slowly pull back, making sure to stay on the exact same line, pause, then just go forward when my subconscious says to.

I guess I could say I am highly focused, but on the overall process, not any one deliberate thing. Highly focused, yet just being "aware". Nothing taken for granted, but nothing over thought about either. Just like walking, letting the subconscious do what it does best. Train it with what you want it to do, and how to do it, then let it do what it does best,.

Yes, once Pro One is learned, it's all natural. In other words, the language mind is not directing in any way.....one's visual intelligence leads the way and hopefully with few words cluttering up the process. Easier said done but that's the beauty of CTE. The mind can park itself on visual objectives and the mind/body can have awareness of a proper movement into CCB.

Stan Shuffett
 
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dont shoot the devils advocate
this is for discussion
in cte /90/90/see systems heir is a "perception" as described by stan for his system to all of them that has to be learned /repeated to get good at
ie how to align/how to pivot /sweep etc
(you can tell im no expert at these systems)


with ghost ball aiming after you learn where the the ghost ball spot is using cranefield (sp) arrows you just aim at that spot
standing behind the ball to see the target line
see this thread he did a great job at describing TANGIBLE line and aiming points
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=356582
getting the aim point you have an objective not "feel" spot to aim at
like hitting a one rail kick
you find your spot and hit it....:wink:
why must there be a war between you guys
people see and learn in different ways
in one pocket they say the best shot is the one you can execute
in aiming isnt the best system is the one that "clicks " for you????


agree ??yes/no
 
dont shoot the devils advocate
this is for discussion
in cte /90/90/see systems heir is a "perception" as described by stan for his system to all of them that has to be learned /repeated to get good at
ie how to align/how to pivot /sweep etc
(you can tell im no expert at these systems)


with ghost ball aiming after you learn where the the ghost ball spot is using cranefield (sp) arrows you just aim at that spot
standing behind the ball to see the target line
see this thread he did a great job at describing TANGIBLE line and aiming points
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=356582
getting the aim point you have an objective not "feel" spot to aim at
like hitting a one rail kick
you find your spot and hit it....:wink:
why must there be a war between you guys
people see and learn in different ways
in one pocket they say the best shot is the one you can execute
in aiming isnt the best system is the one that "clicks " for you????


agree ??yes/no

Can not take the arrow to a table for play.
Remove it and GB can not be seen plus GB needs adjustment...

CTE visuals are tied to regulation tables. Enough said.

Stan Shuffett
 
I have shot tons of rifles and pistols. Still do from time to time. Likening that to aiming in pool is foolish. There are far more differences than similarities.
 
Also......do you have a built in degree meter to indicate when a shot is 30 or 15 degrees or are you really just guessing that is the angle, when in reality it just might be 27 degrees.

You just continue to demonstrate that you are absolutely clueless about how Pro One even vaguely works.
 
Here are a few clips of some shots.......all ghost ball.

http://m.youtube.com/results?q=ducman 954

If I was tell you all you had to do is find the spot on the table that is a1/2 ball from the outer most edge of the OB and that is on the line to the center pocket and then roll the bottom of the CB over that spot, it would hard at first to find that spot because determining that spot would be subjective. Through experince ie. trail and error, the level of being subjective decreases but never totally goes away.

Now, training with Babe 's arrow , you now have a objective spot to see, to touch on the table. The arrow points to that spot on the table that is a 1/2 ball from the outer most edge of the OB.

Take the arrow away, your back to subjective aiming, but from using the arrow, the trail and error can be reduced becausevo the arrow giving you a objective spot on the table and not something subjective.

This is why I say all aiming systems are subjective. Implying that a system can give objective spots to aim with is very misleading.

Could you pls make some videos shooting spot shots and straight-ins? Cb-ob distance 3,5-4 diamonds. On straight shots the ob at least 2,5-3 diamonds distance to the pocket, and I would like to see 1. Stop, 2. Medium draw, 3. Power draw, 4. Medium follow, 5. Power follow. The videos you post show nothing to me. Not only cb-ob distance is very short but also the ob is 1 diamond or less from the pocket !!!!!!!!!!!
 
You just continue to demonstrate that you are absolutely clueless about how Pro One even vaguely works.

well- to have not *knowledge* is not a crime- but to be learn-resistant, and not being able to *understand* will always get you back from making the next step. that s far more important.

i recommend in this case not to make 1.000.000 balls....i would recommend to empty 1.000.000 cup of teas :p
 
Very well said Neil.

I am at this point myself - I see and shoot, there are no calculations or struggles to see visual perceptions.

Stan told me I would get there but until this past 4-5 months I had no idea how powerful it would be.

Cheers,
Gerry

Scott, no aiming system advocate is going to disagree with you on this part. When learning a system, you must be detail oriented and rather robotic. Such as CTE manual pivot. You then progress to CTE Pro One which is less robotic. Then, over enough time, your subconscious lines up using the system and not your conscious mind. Just like when you walk, you don't think about it, but your mind knows the correct "steps" to take to enable you to walk.

I find it beneficial to at times shoot a few racks off all with the conscious mind, just to reinforce the subconscious mind on just what I want it to do. Played correctly, I feel like I am just looking at the ball, getting down, no or only a few warmup strokes, and shoot the ball in the hole. Most of my conscious thinking while standing is setting in my mind just where I want to hit the cb and at what speed for position play.
 
Very well said Neil.

I am at this point myself - I see and shoot, there are no calculations or struggles to see visual perceptions.

Stan told me I would get there but until this past 4-5 months I had no idea how powerful it would be.

Cheers,
Gerry

Exactly, Gerry! one must trust the system at first by SEEING and shooting. In other words, simply eliminate the manual pivot, and move into a complete visual/ physical professional approach to each shot.
One must not let the lack of "perfect sweep pictures in their mind' prevent them from naturally moving into CCB. The perfect sweep pictures develop very quickly if the language mind is not allowed to interfere.
The language /math mind wants to know " how far". WELL....

If sweeps are a problem just go back to 1/2 tip pivots based on 2 FIXED CB EDGES for a short time......until the confidence can begin to occur with sweeping to CCB.
The sweeps are the same VISUALLY over and over.

Once I see the visuals I am absolutely connected to the tsble/shot line... I just shoot from there.

Stan Shuffett
 
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Here are a few clips of some shots.......all ghost ball.

http://m.youtube.com/results?q=ducman 954

If I was tell you all you had to do is find the spot on the table that is a1/2 ball from the outer most edge of the OB and that is on the line to the center pocket and then roll the bottom of the CB over that spot, it would hard at first to find that spot because determining that spot would be subjective. Through experince ie. trail and error, the level of being subjective decreases but never totally goes away.

duckie - How about a video of you running 9 ball racks instead of the 14 second clips of short distance shots. You might
get some credibility if you can do that. I'd guess most folks probably think this system would be for beginners. Again IMO.
 
Neil/Gerry/Stan, thanks for the comments.

I got to that point with Pro1 as well when I was using it, probably after 8 or 9 months and then continued to refine from there. Interestingly enough, when I worked on some other methods, I had to go through that same process again - getting comfortable with alignments, process, movements, etc. It is more of an awareness now, with special focus used on difficult shots, and as you guys said, when I feel I'm off a bit or getting a bit quick or sloppy, I go back to basics and shoot some racks with very conscious effort to re-emphasize key steps as needed.

For me, the benefit of the systems is the consistent approach and the consistency between shots. I end up aligning in a very similar way over and over again, typically with just 2 alignments on 80% - 90% of my shots. It basically ends up being just like shooting the same shot over and over again, vs. constantly having to estimate an offset (GB, thickness, etc.) for each shot. Shots no longer feel unique in any way, no sense of anxiety of not shooting this shot before, it's just align, move in, and shoot. It's been a nice confidence booster, for me at least. I do see the other side of the coin where people just want to visualize a GB or thickness or offset and feel like they are coming directly down the aim line. Again, whatever works, I wouldn't try to force anyone to use anything I do, I just present it as an alternative that could possibly lead to an improved awareness of ball pocketing, not to mention some of the side benefits.

Scott
 
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