Aiming Systems • Techniques • ETC

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If you can stay in perfect line through the whole rack you can use center pocket and center ball. How many pros stay in perfect line on position the whole rack? Get out of line and most likely you will need to spin/throw the ball and/or cheat the pocket. IMO Stevie Moore has got at least a ball worse since he has been using an aiming system. Also, he looks confused on how to hit half his shots. Johnnyt

Watch poolactiontv.com today, and watch him. It is crazy, and confusing what he is doing. So far from a consistent PSR
 
First, like joey, I purchase aiming systems to see if I can get something from them. I do think some are snake oil.

Did anyone watch Stevie Moore last night in the Smokey Mountain Shootout? Even Big Truck was commenting on WTF was he doing, and we all know he is a Pro One proponent. He was coming into the shot weird, almost putting his head on top of the cue and walking straight into the shot. Watch the stream today to see if he does the same thing.

Maybe he has a new system. I would call it the rifle.

He looked like he was doing the Tango with the cue as his partner. JT
 
First, like joey, I purchase aiming systems to see if I can get something from them. I do think some are snake oil.

Did anyone watch Stevie Moore last night in the Smokey Mountain Shootout? Even Big Truck was commenting on WTF was he doing, and we all know he is a Pro One proponent. He was coming into the shot weird, almost putting his head on top of the cue and walking straight into the shot. Watch the stream today to see if he does the same thing.

Maybe he has a new system. I would call it the rifle.

I thought he looked liked a matador. It was different but I don't begrudge anyone for trying something new, I also noticed he was playing with a javalin.
 
So you use several systems as a pre shot routine? Wouldn't just one system make you more consistent?
Yes, it would. Shame their is not just one shot in pool. I will use SEE to pocket a ball direct. Pro One to pocket a very thin cut direct. Tom Rossman's M&M method mixed with SEE for banking. Pocket 5 system for 3 rail kicks and so on.

I'm not against any system or method. I'm just of the belief that to market something you have to use facts, and be on the more humble side. From what I've read, neither Stan or Ekkes have ever claimed their systems to be 100% usable by everyone on the planet, but a high number of people have seen the benefit of what their systems can bring to the table and both are more than willing to help those who have trouble picking the systems up.
 
Amen to that

Aiming systems and techniques that some people SELL are not necessary for everyone. That is the cold-blooded truth. You can still go hit a million balls and you might reach Nirvana or not......

However, I have thought on this A LOT. Everyone knows that there isn't an aiming system out there or a technique that I don't like. I have purposefully kept an open mind about every aiming system and every technique used by others and the bottom line is they all work for some people, sometimes a lot of people.

We aren't all built the same, physically, mentally or emotionally and that's why there are all these different ways that people suggest that you can play and improve your game.

While there is a cookie-cutter method of playing pool, it isn't for everyone BECAUSE we don't all see things the same way.

For those of you that dislike or hate (PUT IN YOUR MOST HATED SYSTEM HERE), because it doesn't work for YOU, don't think it doesn't work for SOMEONE ELSE, because it DOES. It might not help YOU, but it does help others. So instead of running behind every thread that offers another option for aiming, shooting or playing and pissing in those cheerios, consider that someone else who doesn't see things just as you do, might just be helped by that particular aiming system.

I have made it a life-long work of learning and appreciating the way different people play pool. I have probed the minds of the best pool players on the planet. I have paid for pool lessons from the best pool players on the planet. They all offer UNIQUE perspectives about how they see things and how they accomplish things and you should consider this before admonishing things that haven't helped you. Please consider that you might not need (or find it valuable) that particular piece of the puzzle but someone else MIGHT and you could be the one preventing them from improving their pool game. We aren't all made alike.

Just sayin......

JoeyA

Nice Post JoeyA!

I see the whole world of aiming system people and Natural Method Players as a society of friends and brothers who naturally argue over something. Both sides are trying to get to the same end.

I have my own beliefs on Aiming and keep them mostly to myself for now. If I had a copy of a CTE I would try it to see what I could get from it and I've watched some of an older version of cte cd at a friends house and found it very interesting and what shots I tried I nailed them and probably for several reasons including the fact that since I see when the shot is on, I knew to stop adjusting.

What I find interesting about this whole argument is this:

I don't think if someone from the Natural side of things were to find a plausible explanation of how "they" did things that he would be "well received." I find that unless you have mindlessly hit balls until your hands bleed that maybe you aren't allowed in the club. I don't know this for sure but it seems to me that most of this argument is like two kids......yes it is....no it isn't....that goes on forever.

Then you have the JB vs. Lou Figueroa match that I didn't see but hasn't settled anything.

I think its great that we all play pool and that's a nice way to spend a day hanging out with friends....that's about all I think is important actually.....Yes it is ...No it isn't...who cares? Its whatever flips your flop. If you have a way you see to hit shots is that an aiming system? If it is then more of us are guilty. I don't remember the ghost ball pointing the way? I must have missed it. Dang!! Foiled again.!
 
First, like joey, I purchase aiming systems to see if I can get something from them. I do think some are snake oil.

Did anyone watch Stevie Moore last night in the Smokey Mountain Shootout? Even Big Truck was commenting on WTF was he doing, and we all know he is a Pro One proponent. He was coming into the shot weird, almost putting his head on top of the cue and walking straight into the shot. Watch the stream today to see if he does the same thing.

Maybe he has a new system. I would call it the rifle.

I watched Stevie. I watched him win a tournament last weekend and he's done well this weekend, in final 16 and still playing. I watched him miss one shot only that was make able yesterday. What was your point? Watch closer, he is not walking straight into the shot.
 
You are very blind. Did you actually listen to Big Truck he was going to ask Stevie wtf he was doing

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk
 
Isn't it wonderful to have this aiming spam back in the main forum? It's like checking my e-mail at 4am.

And Cookie.. what do you mean 'was'? Stan still claims that it is geometrically correct, but can't provide proof. You know what it's called when people make claims that they can't back up? Apparently, aiming systems ..
 
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I did learn something

Isn't it wonderful to have this aiming spam back in the main forum? It's like checking my e-mail at 4am.

And Cookie.. what do you mean 'was'? Stan still claims that it is geometrically correct, but can't provide proof. You know what it's called when people make claims that they can't back up? Apparently, aiming systems ..

i did learn something from Stan. That no matter who you are or what you do a sweep is exactly equal to a 1/2 tip manual pivot (the system geometrically connects to the table, but you have to adjust by pivoting. It is new math 2+1 and a pivot equals 3) It is an amazing break through in the physical nature of the body. In fact Gruden, is teaching it in his football camps. If you throw across your body it is equal to a football width of distance. the perfect way to lead a receiver.

I agree this belongs in the aiming forum
 
You are very blind. Did you actually listen to Big Truck he was going to ask Stevie wtf he was doing

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Not sure what big truck asking Stevie anything has to do with it. I doubt that big truck knows Pro One.
 
They're just snake oil. However the more knowledgeable you become , the more self-awareness you'll gain. You will adjust your game to your ability.

Your ability is what adjusts your game ,, some people could spend every moment of their spare time learning CTE and not get that much better while others with more ability might see a spike in their game ,,, I call this new stick syndrome ,,, we all know it ,, you pic up a stick that feels real good you go to the table and play lights out ,,
Confidence and natural ability goes a long ways


1
 
Unfortunately, I didn't communicate the intention of my thread well enough. It wasn't to start the arguing that is regularly seen about aiming systems.

I was hoping that the thread might persuade those who think they know it all, that they don't know it all for every one.

What I know about pool is only from my own personal path. That knowledge may or may not be what you need to learn.

Your own personal pool knowledge may or may not be what I need to learn.

I don't have any problem with someone thinking that what they know is the absolute best way to aim, stand, bridge, hit the cue ball, stroke etc, FOR THEMSELVES. I do have a problem with anyone thinking that THEIR WAY is the best way for EVERYONE.

That is why I suggest that instead of making negative comments about this one or that one, this thing or that thing, you should perhaps, open your mind to other possibilities and perspectives if not for yourself, then FOR OTHERS.


JoeyA
 
Isn't it wonderful to have this aiming spam back in the main forum? It's like checking my e-mail at 4am.

And Cookie.. what do you mean 'was'? Stan still claims that it is geometrically correct, but can't provide proof. You know what it's called when people make claims that they can't back up? Apparently, aiming systems ..

There are plenty of beliefs that people have in this world that can't necessarily be proven. On the other hand there's never been any proof that CTE is not geometrically correct.
Can you back up your assumption it's not?
 
John, according to the latest CTE/Pro One video, certain alignments are claimed to lead to a shot that is geometrically over-cut, but that actually relies on throw to straighten the shot out. Throw is a variable, the amount of which is dictated by angle, shot speed, and ball condition. How can an aiming system be "pure" if it includes a variable as part of the system itself? ;)

Anyway, I paid my money, I got my peak. I can't make it work so far, but that doesn't mean I have to blast it on AZB with claims that it is all snake oil. Instead, I'm gonna "put it on the shelf", as old CJ likes to say. Come back to it when I'm ready, or consider it part of my pool education to find out what doesn't work for me. I'm with Joey. There is no reason to run around trying to invent windmills to tilt with, there's too much real evil in the world I'd rather dedicate my time to try and correct.

The overcut is the automatic compensation as I understand it.

Here is the layman version.

I follow the directions without adjusting and the shoot the cue ball straight and the ball goes in. I don't know why.

Here is Stan's findings, using the system the correct visual and sweep leads to a cue position that is sitting in the same position as if the shooter had used ghost ball and chosen consciously to correctly compensate for cut-induced-throw.

He finds that to be true regardless of the shot. For whatever reason using the CTE perceptions leads the shooter to a position that overlaps the correct shot line precisely.

I don't know why this is. To me this would all be fairly easy to figure out IF anyone were willing to spend some time doing some really good measurements. I think that you could build a room where the table, floor and walls were mapped out on a grid. Or at least cameras were set up in such a way that an exact 3d grid could be overlaid over the video later.

Then you put out dozens of reference shots and let CTE users shoot them. Each reference shot would have a line mapped out virtually that is the 100% correct shot line compensated for contact induced throw at say a medium speed. The shooters would be unaware of this line. The shots would vary from straight in to almost 90 degree cuts.

The test would indicate a few things.

1. Is there consistency in the physical approach to the shot from shooter to shooter.
2. Does the shooter choose the right shot line regardless of their ability to actually execute the shot?
3. Is the shooter compensating subconsciously or consciously deviating from the system instructions to find the shot line? (this I guess would be indicated by indecision)
4. Of the shooters who chose the right shot line how much then does execution matter?

I would use this setup to test all sorts of players - those who profess to not use any system whatsoever - point and shoot, those who claim to use ghost ball, those who use contact point, those who use other systems. Obviously the biggest challenge would be finding a large enough group of decent players to pick your subjects from. I submit that the BCAPL-CSI events in Vegas are the perfect place to find that group of players and that such a room could be set up there.

It would also be a perfect place to take players who don't use any system and test their shotmaking ability before and after learning a system and to record their physical approach to the shots before and after.

For me the systems work, they work as claimed even if the proponents don't know exactly why they work. All I can say to this is that man figured out how to make fire long before man could explain why what they did makes fire. Long before man had a word for combustion and understood fire on a molecular level man used fire to get shit done.

I honestly feel that this is the case with aiming systems now. We use them and go holy crap this works without knowing exactly why.

I want to go back in time a little bit. In the late eighties at Jamacia Joes I think in Oklahoma City, could have been any pool room I frequented back then, a man showed me a cut shot, a seemingly impossible shot to cut the ball backwards into the corner pocket. Try as I might with both eyes open this shot would not go. Always hit it too thick.

Then he says to me close one eye. And the eye would be one or the other depending on the cut direction. Close one eye and shoot it he says. I do and the object ball splits the pocket. I say damn that's weird. But it works. Why does it work? Obviously there is something going on with the perception with both eyes open that led me to believe I was choosing the right shot line but I wasn't. With one eye the illusion was eliminated and I guess I saw the shot clearly and was able to cut it in cleanly.

I am sure someone could explain the math of this as relates to optics and 3d space but why would that matter to me? The point is that if I was betting someone on this shot and I knew the one eye method and they didn't then I would win the lunch money all day because no matter how hard they tried they would be inconsistent at best with two eyes on the shot.

Now, with CTE/ProOne and with other methods, I feel like the illusion is taken out and the right shot line is there for me. I don't need to know exactly why it works with the underpinning math and science. As a player I only want to make balls.

And the flipside to using a method that gets me to the shot line confidently is that now I have to focus even more on my physical ability to control my stroke. Now it's not just lackadaisical whatever aiming and shooting but instead focused precision aiming which SHOULD BE coupled with rigorous dedicated physical control. In my case the physical control is lacking but the aiming is there.
 
Geometrically Correct?

There are plenty of beliefs that people have in this world that can't necessarily be proven. On the other hand there's never been any proof that CTE is not geometrically correct.
Can you back up your assumption it's not?

Cookie,
My opinion but Geometrically Correct? What does that mean anyway? I think that's sort of like 6 is a half dozen. I find that statement interesting but I know what Stan likely means. Ive seen some of his posts about it being geometrically correct for banks, which to me is wonderful I love banks but its probably off by at .25 diamond at the result end least. Most banks play with a medium stroke a little short if they are shot at the geometrically correct aiming line. So its pocket speed that pots the shot at the geometrically correct banking line if there isn't other things like cling on the shot. So if those geometrically correct banks are going in medium speed to me it means that the shot was a little wide of being truly geometrically correct but I could care less as long as it works for someone.

Im not sure that being geometrically correct is something you want in aiming anyway. If its geometrically correct then how does the shot go in when cit is thrown in there, obviously the aiming line was off line just a bit.

Regardless of the method the shot needs to go in. I think I'll go play some and do that. Sure is a lot of fun.
 
Unfortunately, I didn't communicate the intention of my thread well enough. It wasn't to start the arguing that is regularly seen about aiming systems.



I was hoping that the thread might persuade those who think they know it all, that they don't know it all for every one.



JoeyA


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