Ivory Cue Joints

And I can understand why too. It's because of the metal insert in the shaft face which essentially render the joint connection practically speaking similar to a piloted steel version.
The basic difference becomes the surrounding collar and obviously one would be made of ivory and the other would be steel, albeit different materials.

This is going to sound braggadocio on my part but I only bought my Mottey cue because of Paul reputation for making one of the best piloted ivory joints and I'm not just saying'
that cuz I own one. But essentially I figured it would be 2nd to a flat ivory joint and I've got two now and that's been my experience even with a Paul Mottey piloted ivory cue joint.

So understandably from my experience, it stands to reason you probably wouldn't notice much of a difference, if any, comparing two piloted joints to each other since the shaft's core
connection is the same, i.e., metal to metal. However, with a flat faced ivory joint, the shaft face connection is all wood and the pin threads directly within the middle of the shaft. Hence,
there isn't any metal to metal connection in the cue's assembly which is a big factor in the sensation or feel. Even my Mottey has to take a back seat to my Scruggs and Owen cues.

Next month my new custom arrives and I'm betting dollars to doughnuts that it will have even better feel than this last Owen cue since the specs should be dialed in really tight. And I'm
keeping my mouth shut on how it looks........I don't want to jinx this cue because I've waited too long. Let's just say I have very high hopes......and my point was this cue also has a flat ivory joint.........there's a difference in feel for some of us and for others a cue with an ivory joint doesn't feel any different.

It's in all likelihood due to everyone having different olfactory senses and distinct tactile senses. Each of us has a system that works uniquely for that person, albeit similar to what everyone
else's systems do. Nonetheless, each of us feels and experiences things & sensations differently and perhaps that's why there's varying and contradictory opinions being expressed. I dunno
why but from my experience, it confirms that there is a difference in feel between an ivory cue joint and a steel cue joint.....to each their own.

Matt B.
 
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I did a test with my flat faced ivory joint with 3/8 10 pin, put a thick cardboard washer in between the joint and taped it, a friend if mine and I shooting around with it taped up not knowing if we were shooting with the ivory/ivory or cardboard washer in between could not tell a difference in feel or sound. Ivory joints are just pretty, and that's the only reason I wanted one
 
From tip to bumper, the choice of every part of the cue determines how it plays. Different combinations may be similar but they all have they're own unique characteristics. Building a GREAT playing/feeling cue does not happen by chance.....
 
Bavafongoul said:
And I can understand why too. It's because of the metal insert in the shaft face which essentially render the joint connection practically speaking similar to a piloted steel version.
The basic difference becomes the surrounding collar and obviously one would be made of ivory and the other would be steel, albeit different materials.

This is going to sound braggadocio on my part but I only bought my Mottey cue because of Paul reputation for making one of the best piloted ivory joints and I'm not just saying'
that cuz I own one. But essentially I figured it would be 2nd to a flat ivory joint and I've got two now and that's been my experience even with a Paul Mottey piloted ivory cue joint.

So understandably from my experience, it stands to reason you probably wouldn't notice much of a difference, if any, comparing two piloted joints to each other since the shaft's core
connection is the same, i.e., metal to metal. However, with a flat faced ivory joint, the shaft face connection is all wood and the pin threads directly within the middle of the shaft. Hence,
there isn't any metal to metal connection in the cue's assembly which is a big factor in the sensation or feel. Even my Mottey has to take a back seat to my Scruggs and Owen cues.

Next month my new custom arrives and I'm betting dollars to doughnuts that it will have even better feel than this last Owen cue since the specs should be dialed in really tight. And I'm
keeping my mouth shut on how it looks........I don't want to jinx this cue because I've waited too long. Let's just say I have very high hopes......and my point was this cue also has a flat ivory joint.........there's a difference in feel for some of us and for others a cue with an ivory joint doesn't feel any different.

It's in all likelihood due to everyone having different olfactory senses and distinct tactile senses. Each of us has a system that works uniquely for that person, albeit similar to what everyone
else's systems do. Nonetheless, each of us feels and experiences things & sensations differently and perhaps that's why there's varying and contradictory opinions being expressed. I dunno
why but from my experience, it confirms that there is a difference in feel between an ivory cue joint and a steel cue joint.....to each their own.

Matt B.
Click to expand...

1. You overthink things way too much.
2. What it the flat faced shaft has an insert?
 
there is a saying that goes somelthing like
if you beleive it its true
if you beleive you can tell what kind of joint is on a cue by feel
enjoy your dream world.........:grin-square:
..
..
because its not possible.....:eek:
 
kvinbrwr said:
Lou

Yup. A steel piloted joint weighs (working from memory) .8 ounces more than a piloted ivory joint. So even in 2 cues weighing the same with different joints, all else being equal, the weight distribution will be different.

Now lets go ask Efren what he thinks about that .8 ounce while he's running rack after rack with a broom handle.

Kevin
Click to expand...


Kevin., I think the cue matters more to some guys than others. Efren can beat us all with a broom handle. And then there have been stories of guys pulling a house stick off the wall and playing lights out.

On the flip side, there are guys that can't or won't do that. I seem to recall a story about snooker great Steve Davis leaving his one-piece cue in a London cab and offered a huge reward to get it back.

I sometimes wonder about players that play great and then at a later time in life, not so great, whether it's because they've changed cues. Like I said, the cue matters more to some guys than others. But maybe some of those guys don't know it matters to them.

Lou Figueroa
 
Bavafongoul said:
I learned after speaking with my cue-maker that the joint, pin and actual shape of the shaft originating from the joint to the tip have a lot to do with the feel of the cue.
I spoke with Bob after getting a '07 Shurtz cue a week ago and I had him change the joint from piloted steel to a flat faced ivory joint with 3/8x11 brass pin.

So after laying the '07 Owen cue side by side with my other cues and comparing it physically and also playability with my Scruggs cue which is also a flat faced ivory
joint and my Mottey cue with piloted ivory joint, I called Bob since my custom won't be finished until next month and I might want to teak the shaft specs a little.

We discussed why Bob makes his cue shafts physically different than other cues by extension of the bell shape approximately 2.5" - 3" from the collar. He also makes
the cue joint oversized and uses a big pin in his flat ivory cue joints. I has a tangible effect on the feel of the cue's hit and so I actually modified the original specifications
that I originally provided Bob for the three shafts he's making for my custom cue.

So there are other more subtle factors that work hand in hand with the cue joint but a flat ivory cue joint just feels different to me than a piloted steel joint. I wouldn't have
switched to buying only ivory cue joints if I couldn't discern the difference......my 4th one arrives next month. I'm telling you there is a different feel but you might not like it.

Matt B.
Click to expand...


I believe that when you are talking about "the feel" of a cue a big part of that is the sound you hear and the vibration transmitted to your grip hand. Some cues sound prettier than others. Some cues feel deader than others. As you say, all that is personal preference.

Lou Figueroa
 
The most significant differences in the "feel" of a cue is personal perception and preference.
 
Scott Lee said:
Larry...I don't recall Dan Janes doing this, but Bob Meucci sure did. He had most of the top pros using his cues, and he did the test with 8-10 of them. As you mentioned, none of them could tell a difference.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Scott Lee is right, i myself have ivory. I think this test should be done again.
 
I saw this thread the other day and re-read the replies. My first reply was not in much detail or too much thought given. I decided to play with a bunch of my cues and now give a better opinion of this subject.


#1 - Is there going to be a noticeable difference from joint to joint when the materials are near the same in
hardness, and weight? My observation is "no".

#2 - Does, or can a joint effect how a cue plays? My observation is "absolutely".

#3 - If different cues with different joints were put together, and the joints covered so people could hit balls to see if they could tell which joint they were hitting with, and assuming the cues were all properly balanced, I don't think you could do much more than guess what it is.

#4 - When there is a significant weight difference it absolutely will effect the play of the cue.

#5 - For some to say an ivory over stainless is just for show, or snob appeal, and to say there is going to be no difference in play when comparing a standard ivory joint to ivory/stainless is just plain ignorance. The same for the half stainless joint compared to the full stainless. The same when comparing stainless to any other non metal, or lighter joint. It's also ignorance to say the butt itself doesn't effect how a cue plays. It may be a minor difference in most cases, but it does. While exaggerated, would the same shaft play different if one butt was made from rubber, and the other made from steel even
if both were the same weight? Of course.


Just some random thoughts...

Chris
 
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CMD said:
I saw this thread the other day and re-read the replies. My first reply was not in much detail or too much thought given. I decided to play with a bunch of my cues and now give a better opinion of this subject.


#1 - Is there going to be a noticeable difference from joint to joint when the materials are near the same in
hardness, and weight? My observation is "no".

#2 - Does, or can a joint effect how a cue plays? My observation is "absolutely".

#3 - If different cues with different joints were put together, and the joints covered so people could hit balls to see if they could tell which joint they were hitting with, and assuming the cues were all properly balanced, I don't think you could do much more than guess what it is.

#4 - When there is a significant weight difference it absolutely will effect the play of the cue.

#5 - For some to say an ivory over stainless is just for show, or snob appeal, and to say there is going to be no difference in play when comparing a standard ivory joint to ivory/stainless is just plain ignorance. The same for the half stainless joint compared to the full stainless. The same when comparing stainless to any other non metal, or lighter joint. It's also ignorance to say the butt itself doesn't effect how a cue plays. It may be a minor difference in most cases, but it does. While exaggerated, would the same shaft play different if one butt was made from rubber, and the other made from steel even
if both were the same weight? Of course.


Just some random thoughts...

Chris
Click to expand...

A while back, Murray Tucker posted an article summarizing the results of the McChesney blind experiment from 1991. The link to his post is provided. I am not a statistician, so someone please correct me if I am wrong. But if I am correct, I believe these results are just below random guessing, but probably not significantly so.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3286694&postcount=18

I agree that different cues play differently. I also agree that the butt affects feel and play, even if it is to a lesser extent than the tip, ferrule, and shaft. There are too many factors that affect feel (particularly balance) that I don't see how to assign a specific characteristic to the joint.
 
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I think that when people try someone's else cue from a different cue-maker, and they like the way the cue plays......maybe even think it's the best playing cue they ever tried.......they misjudge the experience.

What I mean is they credit the cue-maker entirely with why the cue feels so better but don't even know how to figure out why. The first question I always ask is what type of tip is on the cue and its hardness? Is the tip is different than what I use? Is it a dime shape or nickel which I use or is it even more flat? Then I ask about the shaft weigh because that's a factor in why the cue feels better? Then I examine the taper of the shaft and of course whether the ferrules were 1" ivory which is on all my other cues. I figure out whether the cue-maker made the shafts differently than what I'm accustomed to playing with. Then I proceed to examine the cue's overall construction.....example, was it a short spliced cue......weight of the cue butt, balance, etc.

Heck, there are a dozen factors that affect how the cue feels in one's hands......and the cue joint is one of the more important considerations just like the cue tips are.......you need to figure out why a cue feels better and if you understand the anatomy of cue-making, it's not that difficult to do. But the cue joint is very important to the hit and feel of the cue and if anyone thinks otherwise, they are right.

You see this topic perfectly illustrates what Henry Ford once said....."Whenever any man believes he will succeed or he thinks he will fail, he is right on both points." Well, whenever any pool player tells you they can't feel the difference with a cue joint, especially a flat ivory cue joint, or that they can feel the difference, the pool player is right on both counts........just like Henry Ford uttered.

Matt B.
 
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CMD said:
"..... It's also ignorance to say the butt itself doesn't effect how a cue plays....."
Click to expand...

Absolutely... It's like saying the only reason my guitar plays so well is because of the neck... Of course it could be that the player has a little to do with it... Uh oh..May have just opened up another can o worms...lol
 
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