CJ himself is a system then and i guess the transmission system in a car is not a system nor the digestive system or a 100,000 more things described as systems most of which have never explained a thing to me.
Are Systems Really Vital to Play Great Pool?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
CJ himself is a system then and i guess the transmission system in a car is not a system nor the digestive system or a 100,000 more things described as systems most of which have never explained a thing to me.
Transmission doesnt make the cut
I would probably say for the purposes of playing pool the transmission system isnt going to work for you then. Just my 2 cents worth.
I would probably say for the purposes of playing pool the transmission system isnt going to work for you then. Just my 2 cents worth.
You overvalue your contribution by a fifth of a dime and at this point i refer you to the well known 'Playing Chess with a Pigeon' quote
I think the intended question is "In addition to feel, do you also need to calculate to play great pool?"
For instance, you can calculate a bank using a banking system or an aim point using an aiming system. These type of calculation systems have their limitations based on the equipment though.
Also, what good is a calculation if you don't have a consistent routine and stroke? I think this is the area players should be focusing on the most, but I do believe there can be some value with systems.
For instance, you can calculate a bank using a banking system or an aim point using an aiming system. These type of calculation systems have their limitations based on the equipment though.
Also, what good is a calculation if you don't have a consistent routine and stroke? I think this is the area players should be focusing on the most, but I do believe there can be some value with systems.
Ah so Nasty then!
So you go directly to the nasty comment. Thats an educated way to debate. My overvalued opinion is at least mine to share. We Pidgeons do have Opinions.
So you go directly to the nasty comment. Thats an educated way to debate. My overvalued opinion is at least mine to share. We Pidgeons do have Opinions.
Certainly
A system could be nothing more than if you look here, then you can better understand the natural line which passes here. Now you understand what you need to do in order to make the shot.
I dont find that highly complicated to understand.
I find it odd that some people think something simple as pointing out a point or a place or a line is systemology that is to be denounced beyond the shawdow of a doubt.
I would dare say....the non descript methods of playing pool where you get no help...you just have to do it and tough it out are a great part of the reason that we have so many players.
That might have worked in a different time. We are today in the information age and systems are a way of describing the way we learn to feel and that is my opinion.
A system could be nothing more than if you look here, then you can better understand the natural line which passes here. Now you understand what you need to do in order to make the shot.
I dont find that highly complicated to understand.
I find it odd that some people think something simple as pointing out a point or a place or a line is systemology that is to be denounced beyond the shawdow of a doubt.
I would dare say....the non descript methods of playing pool where you get no help...you just have to do it and tough it out are a great part of the reason that we have so many players.
That might have worked in a different time. We are today in the information age and systems are a way of describing the way we learn to feel and that is my opinion.
Pro's systems are more "fine tuned" producing more positive results
I understand your point, however, there's plenty of systems to do things poorly too. Even beginners have a system for playing pool, it's just not the most effective one. As a matter of fact the game gets easier as you get to the higher levels of pool. What I do is much easier than what a beginner, intermediate or even advanced player does....the difference is my systems are slightly more "fine tuned" producing more positive results.
Many of my lessons start out with a "deprogramming period" where I explain and demonstrate why certain "common knowledge" is not effective. The most common topics are grip, and grip pressure - follow through length and speed - how to apply english - stance and why it's important to understand how the feet control BOTH sides of the body - aiming (consciously and subconsciously) - upper body angles and how to establish them consistently before you go down to shoot - why moving your back hand up and back changes your ability to control the cue ball - how to connect the shoulder, and the "chain reaction" of the arm/wrist/hand to the TIP - mental systems (taken from hypnosis, NLP, martial arts, zen, and other concepts and philosophies)
These categories of learning all have systems, and everyone must learn them in their own way. Rarely will someone learn these without the guidance of a mentor or professional teacher......in my day it was our "road partners" that wanted to win money betting on us that shared these powerful techniques. Now, that knowledge is diluted and opinionated. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I understand your point, however, there's plenty of systems to do things poorly too. Even beginners have a system for playing pool, it's just not the most effective one. As a matter of fact the game gets easier as you get to the higher levels of pool. What I do is much easier than what a beginner, intermediate or even advanced player does....the difference is my systems are slightly more "fine tuned" producing more positive results.
Many of my lessons start out with a "deprogramming period" where I explain and demonstrate why certain "common knowledge" is not effective. The most common topics are grip, and grip pressure - follow through length and speed - how to apply english - stance and why it's important to understand how the feet control BOTH sides of the body - aiming (consciously and subconsciously) - upper body angles and how to establish them consistently before you go down to shoot - why moving your back hand up and back changes your ability to control the cue ball - how to connect the shoulder, and the "chain reaction" of the arm/wrist/hand to the TIP - mental systems (taken from hypnosis, NLP, martial arts, zen, and other concepts and philosophies)
These categories of learning all have systems, and everyone must learn them in their own way. Rarely will someone learn these without the guidance of a mentor or professional teacher......in my day it was our "road partners" that wanted to win money betting on us that shared these powerful techniques. Now, that knowledge is diluted and opinionated. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Agreed
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A good deal of the systems I find mentioned here to my own personal view are more complicated than I have the time to deal with, when I can find easier ways of doing things.
You speak of the whole martial arts/zen thing and I can see where functioning as one within the universe of the pool table has a lot of merits, but when I review how much we are told about the Ghost Ball System, I can surely see why a lot of new players never matured into good players because Ive seen a lot get frustrated and quit. That doesnt necessarily mean that something was wrong personally with them.
It might be a direct reflection of the fact that the Ghost Ball System hasnt been helping things much with the amount of information that we give out on it. So when someone starts talking about a system Im happy something is keeping them playing pool.
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I agree with a lot of what you said. I am not a big proponnent of cte although I recognize that it might have some merits, its just not for me. I have my own systems for doing things, just as you have stated that you have yours...ieB]the view that the balls are flat and one dimensional[/BThis is your way of figuring things out and is "your system."
A good deal of the systems I find mentioned here to my own personal view are more complicated than I have the time to deal with, when I can find easier ways of doing things.
You speak of the whole martial arts/zen thing and I can see where functioning as one within the universe of the pool table has a lot of merits, but when I review how much we are told about the Ghost Ball System, I can surely see why a lot of new players never matured into good players because Ive seen a lot get frustrated and quit. That doesnt necessarily mean that something was wrong personally with them.
It might be a direct reflection of the fact that the Ghost Ball System hasnt been helping things much with the amount of information that we give out on it. So when someone starts talking about a system Im happy something is keeping them playing pool.
It is human nature to look for connections, look for patterns, look for explanations. It's what we do. But it doesn't mean they're always there and it would be a huge mistake to try and find a system where none exists. (Even if you give a cute name or its own set of initials
Lou Figueroa
Sure, but let's all agree that for a system to be useful it has to reasonably accurately represent reality, and that not all systems do that. Just because you can come up with a system doesn't mean it's a good system. I think this is the crux of the debate with some of the (unnamed) systems out there. It becomes a debate about whether systems, in general, are useful, rather than the specific system in question.
Supporter of system X: "Systems work!"
Critic of system X: "But your system doesn't make sense."
Supporter of system X: "Stop hating on systems!"
We've all seen systems that make no sense. Pool is full of them. Go to any pool room and you'll find people telling you that to make a particular bank or kick or shot you have to jack up and hit the cue ball at 7:30 and snap your wrist and aim at the second diamond and sacrifice a goat.
We need "systems" in everything we do. Take health. Doctors and nurses don't use intuition, they use a system, called biology. Other people use different, bogus systems that have them sitting under pyramids or refusing to vaccinate their kids. There, as in pool, the question isn't whether systems in general are useful, the question should be about the viability of a particular system.
Supporter of system X: "Systems work!"
Critic of system X: "But your system doesn't make sense."
Supporter of system X: "Stop hating on systems!"
We've all seen systems that make no sense. Pool is full of them. Go to any pool room and you'll find people telling you that to make a particular bank or kick or shot you have to jack up and hit the cue ball at 7:30 and snap your wrist and aim at the second diamond and sacrifice a goat.
We need "systems" in everything we do. Take health. Doctors and nurses don't use intuition, they use a system, called biology. Other people use different, bogus systems that have them sitting under pyramids or refusing to vaccinate their kids. There, as in pool, the question isn't whether systems in general are useful, the question should be about the viability of a particular system.
Nice
Ha, Ha, Ha, nice one.
I think it is one, Im just not sure what you would do with it if you had it but thats my opinion.
It is human nature to look for connections, look for patterns, look for explanations. It's what we do. But it doesn't mean they're always there and it would be a huge mistake to try and find a system where none exists. (Even if you give a cute name or its own set of initials
Lou Figueroa
Ha, Ha, Ha, nice one.
I think it is one, Im just not sure what you would do with it if you had it but thats my opinion.
Until then simply "be willing to be willing to be willing to look"
Systems are always there for those that are willing to look. If you're not willing to look maybe you can ask for willingness and someday it will be given to you. Until then simply "be willing to be willing to be willing to look".
'The Game is the Teacher'
It is human nature to look for connections, look for patterns, look for explanations. It's what we do. But it doesn't mean they're always there and it would be a huge mistake to try and find a system where none exists. (Even if you give a cute name or its own set of initials
Lou Figueroa
Systems are always there for those that are willing to look. If you're not willing to look maybe you can ask for willingness and someday it will be given to you. Until then simply "be willing to be willing to be willing to look".
'The Game is the Teacher'
It is human nature to look for connections, look for patterns, look for explanations. It's what we do. But it doesn't mean they're always there and it would be a huge mistake to try and find a system where none exists. (Even if you give a cute name or its own set of initials
Lou Figueroa
It is even a greater mistake to deny the existence of effective systems that ate there and do work. I watched your match with JB. You are a very systematic player. The fact that you obviously have issues with Stan and/or CTE is your choice. To continuously badmouth a system proven by many high level players to be bona fide speaks volumes about your own petty nature.
touretti
Registered
I'm going to almost piggyback what Chuck and Krupa said, but in a different light, and maybe some of you alluded or even directly stated this.
When it comes to a system or the "natural talent" of one player that seems to benefit him over another player, maybe his brain functions in a manner which allows him or her to already understand a utilize "systems", or certain mannerisms which may help to keep their games much more consistent then others.
However, let's consider the possibility that playing systematically, playing world class, without consciously reflecting on these things are one and the same. For instance, let's look at a player like Strickland. He mentions that things for him just clicked as soon as he hit the table. That doesn't mean that he doesn't use "systems"... it may be quite the opposite. He naturally understands systems or a systematic approach to billiards, but just haven't given the inherent ability to do so a label. Instead of saying "he naturally understands systems and pool inherently", we often refer to someone being a prodigy.
Perhaps the only thing special that the greats who don't use systems possesses is that they DO use systems and use them well, and have no clue? Just a thought.
This isnt to say at all that any one of these people are unintelligent; quite the opposite. Perhaps its just one of those things that you dont question...would you really want an answer, or would you keep using what works if it works?
When it comes to a system or the "natural talent" of one player that seems to benefit him over another player, maybe his brain functions in a manner which allows him or her to already understand a utilize "systems", or certain mannerisms which may help to keep their games much more consistent then others.
However, let's consider the possibility that playing systematically, playing world class, without consciously reflecting on these things are one and the same. For instance, let's look at a player like Strickland. He mentions that things for him just clicked as soon as he hit the table. That doesn't mean that he doesn't use "systems"... it may be quite the opposite. He naturally understands systems or a systematic approach to billiards, but just haven't given the inherent ability to do so a label. Instead of saying "he naturally understands systems and pool inherently", we often refer to someone being a prodigy.
Perhaps the only thing special that the greats who don't use systems possesses is that they DO use systems and use them well, and have no clue? Just a thought.
This isnt to say at all that any one of these people are unintelligent; quite the opposite. Perhaps its just one of those things that you dont question...would you really want an answer, or would you keep using what works if it works?
One thing about the old systems, like draw a line through the center of pocket and the OB (mine), ghost ball, and fractional, we know that you need a straight stroke to hit the target. We also know that these systems only get close to the pocket on the longer shots. We also know it's up to us to figure out all the other thing we have to do (feel and judgment) to get the ball in the pocket and get position for the next shots. There is no magic bullet. JT
he's one of the few that understand how ALL the games link together.
Earl Strickland is a very systematic player, his knowledge ranks very high on the scale of those with true, pool knowledge. I've learned many things playing golf, tennis, and pool with Earl, he's one of the few that understand how ALL the games link together.
The part of our mind that is responsible for utilizing systems is in the subconscious. We can think about the "symbols" that engage these systems, but ultimately they are done under out level of consciousness.
There are "tricks" to connecting these subconscious systems to our awareness, and many books have been written on the subject.
There's a funny "miss" quote that "ignorance is bliss," but that's not correct and taken out of context: The original quote is from Thomas Gray's poem and says
where ignorance is bliss,
'Tis folly to be wise.
Earl Strickland is a very systematic player, his knowledge ranks very high on the scale of those with true, pool knowledge. I've learned many things playing golf, tennis, and pool with Earl, he's one of the few that understand how ALL the games link together.
The part of our mind that is responsible for utilizing systems is in the subconscious. We can think about the "symbols" that engage these systems, but ultimately they are done under out level of consciousness.
There are "tricks" to connecting these subconscious systems to our awareness, and many books have been written on the subject.
There's a funny "miss" quote that "ignorance is bliss," but that's not correct and taken out of context: The original quote is from Thomas Gray's poem and says
where ignorance is bliss,
'Tis folly to be wise.
I can agree that the use of a system should be something natural and almost innate and that would speak loudly of the viability and useability of the system.
the systems used for our primary functions can be improved
I agree, we sometimes aren't aware that our entire lives rely on a system of some kind or another. We learn these systems, either on our own, or with another's assistance ie: parents, teachers, friends, Tv, Internet, experience, etc.
Even though the ones you mentioned are required for human existence, it's still true that:
Some people breathe better than others (especially if there's smoking involved)
Some people eat better than others (nutritious food and supplements are essential to maintain "disease reduced" health,
Some people drink better than others (water is vital to good health, and keeping hydrated is something that will also improve your pool game's consistency)
Some people sleep better than others. (there are more "sleep disorders" these days than any other time in history - meditation will help the mind that "races" and melatonin is useful for a natural sleep remedy - drugs help, but sooner or later have negative effects)
So even the systems used for our primary functions can be improved on with better information, and the willingness to look for our own best mental and physical health interests in mind. 'The Game is the Teacher'
I agree, we sometimes aren't aware that our entire lives rely on a system of some kind or another. We learn these systems, either on our own, or with another's assistance ie: parents, teachers, friends, Tv, Internet, experience, etc.
Even though the ones you mentioned are required for human existence, it's still true that:
Some people breathe better than others (especially if there's smoking involved)
Some people eat better than others (nutritious food and supplements are essential to maintain "disease reduced" health,
Some people drink better than others (water is vital to good health, and keeping hydrated is something that will also improve your pool game's consistency)
Some people sleep better than others. (there are more "sleep disorders" these days than any other time in history - meditation will help the mind that "races" and melatonin is useful for a natural sleep remedy - drugs help, but sooner or later have negative effects)
So even the systems used for our primary functions can be improved on with better information, and the willingness to look for our own best mental and physical health interests in mind. 'The Game is the Teacher'