Are Systems Really Vital to Play Great Pool?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
Yes they do. You dont think shifting a race car is a systematic process?
I readily admit that I play by feel, but I also admit that what I do is systematic in how I approach it. If you do things like stand behind the shot, visualize your ghostball, then get down on the line to the aiming point, you are doing things systematically as well. But you somehow have a mental block with the word system. If you dont subscribe to a particular system, so be it. But be smart enough to acknowledge it doesnt work for you etc, as opposed to a blanket statement that systems are nonsense. Its semantics.
You cant wipe your ass without a system, ie step one, put toilet paper in hand, step two, wipe ass, step three repeat as needed.
Chuck
the advantages to knowing systems is we dont have to memorize as many individual shots if we know them,and its impossible to remember all the different shots and possibilities,systems help us to do that and to gategorize and group shots in our minds. I am a big systems person,and at times i have thought that it diminishes my intuitive abilities. I think to effectively use systems and their variations you have to play for a certain amount of time. The thing is because of the variables involved,speed of the cloth, rail distortion and other factors,every system has a point where it breaks down or terminates. I think they are a good base yo build on,and i have used some of the popular kicking systems to create my own systems,after beating just the cueball around the table for hours,and controlling the variables as best as i can.
The System Master!
Lmao.....yep youre the guy I want building my cue case...omg what have you been doing with that hand.?.....lol....practicing again huh?
Lmao.....yep youre the guy I want building my cue case...omg what have you been doing with that hand.?.....lol....practicing again huh?
The Term System....dirty word
For me it seems the word system has become a Dirty word but really describes "a way" to make shots.
For all it is I think the people who founded CTE.....I know it originally came from Hal Houle had to be really imaginative people and Stan Shuffet really poured himself into it.
I think that CTE is no different from any other......Way of Making Shots....in the fact that its a Way. It is certainly not the only way but is valid within the type of systems that hold similar qualities.
For some reason that word System became a dirty word among those who weren't open to being taught a system. Its really silly when you think about it but from what Ive seen people are very opinionated about things even if they know they are wrong. I call it Testosterone Blindness. If someone isn't ready for help, They aren't going to do well with any other way than what they are currently using. They need to bang the head on the wall until the noggin softens some. Then maybe they will get ready if they don't improve.
For me it seems the word system has become a Dirty word but really describes "a way" to make shots.
For all it is I think the people who founded CTE.....I know it originally came from Hal Houle had to be really imaginative people and Stan Shuffet really poured himself into it.
I think that CTE is no different from any other......Way of Making Shots....in the fact that its a Way. It is certainly not the only way but is valid within the type of systems that hold similar qualities.
For some reason that word System became a dirty word among those who weren't open to being taught a system. Its really silly when you think about it but from what Ive seen people are very opinionated about things even if they know they are wrong. I call it Testosterone Blindness. If someone isn't ready for help, They aren't going to do well with any other way than what they are currently using. They need to bang the head on the wall until the noggin softens some. Then maybe they will get ready if they don't improve.
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Yes all race car drivers use the Hamfaulk system of weight displacement.
Can you be systematic without having a system? Of course, it's called routine. Most of follow a routine when we are brushing our teeth, shampooing our hair, driving etc... we have to in order to function. Can we change that routine?
Of course we can. The other day I came across an article that said you only need a tiny bit of toothpaste instead of the glob that covers all the bristles. I read the article and it made perfect sense and I thought of all the toothpaste I wasted in my life and immediately changed to using 1/4 of the amount I previously did. Small change but it was an immediate one.
I certainly believe that most people play pool with no real conscious system. They aren't out there measuring up the shots with any real objectivity. They go with the looks good feeling and get down and play. And a lot of them get into trouble in their runouts because of it. I also think that some people can certainly be too reliant on a system to the point that they are unable to change when change is needed.
A top player told me that every top player plays with systems whether they admit it or not. I don't know if this is true and I don't see how such an absolute statement can be true. There simply has to be players out there who see and shoot without ever in their life having consciously adopted a formal method. However in my personal conversations with top players I have found that most of them do in fact have methods that they repeat shot for shot to insure that they are consistent in their aim and approach shot after shot.
I don't even know why this is a big deal. In our shop we develop methods and adopt methods that are systematic by nature, ways of thinking about how to do a project that follow certain rules. Wood workers do it, cue makers do it, all craftsmen do it. Nobody is out there winging it on every job. The few that try often fail quickly.
If you do the same steps every time then you are following a routine and acting systematically even if what you are doing has no name in my opinion.
Of course we can. The other day I came across an article that said you only need a tiny bit of toothpaste instead of the glob that covers all the bristles. I read the article and it made perfect sense and I thought of all the toothpaste I wasted in my life and immediately changed to using 1/4 of the amount I previously did. Small change but it was an immediate one.
I certainly believe that most people play pool with no real conscious system. They aren't out there measuring up the shots with any real objectivity. They go with the looks good feeling and get down and play. And a lot of them get into trouble in their runouts because of it. I also think that some people can certainly be too reliant on a system to the point that they are unable to change when change is needed.
A top player told me that every top player plays with systems whether they admit it or not. I don't know if this is true and I don't see how such an absolute statement can be true. There simply has to be players out there who see and shoot without ever in their life having consciously adopted a formal method. However in my personal conversations with top players I have found that most of them do in fact have methods that they repeat shot for shot to insure that they are consistent in their aim and approach shot after shot.
I don't even know why this is a big deal. In our shop we develop methods and adopt methods that are systematic by nature, ways of thinking about how to do a project that follow certain rules. Wood workers do it, cue makers do it, all craftsmen do it. Nobody is out there winging it on every job. The few that try often fail quickly.
If you do the same steps every time then you are following a routine and acting systematically even if what you are doing has no name in my opinion.
I have seen some people on here argue against a system that they don't see as being correct. They have became labeled as system haters by some when in fact I don't think they are system haters at all, they just do not agree with that particular system.
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Ok they are specifically hating
Or perhaps they are just disagreeing and the people they disagree with hate that and in response they try to label them haters.
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, I'd have traded you a case for some vicariousity and time with my teacher.
When trying to "master" something there's a old saying that I believe is true and it involves why it takes a master to train a master "you can see me better than I can see me because there's only air between us - I can't see me as well as you can see me because I'm looking through a life-time of rationalizations and justifications" .......this is true in martial arts and from my experience it holds true in pocket billiards as well.
I agree with you on many topics, just don't underestimate what you can learn vicariously on the subconscious level. Next time you play a big match, I'll be willing to work with you for 15 hours and the results will be different......you were so close to Texas, wish you would have come down for a few days, I'd have traded you a case for some vicariousity and time with my teacher.
'The Game is the Teacher'
When trying to "master" something there's a old saying that I believe is true and it involves why it takes a master to train a master "you can see me better than I can see me because there's only air between us - I can't see me as well as you can see me because I'm looking through a life-time of rationalizations and justifications" .......this is true in martial arts and from my experience it holds true in pocket billiards as well.
I agree with you on many topics, just don't underestimate what you can learn vicariously on the subconscious level. Next time you play a big match, I'll be willing to work with you for 15 hours and the results will be different......you were so close to Texas, wish you would have come down for a few days, I'd have traded you a case for some vicariousity and time with my teacher.
'The Game is the Teacher' I will defer to your experience since you are speaking from a champion's perspective while I obviously am not.
I am just mainly speaking theoretically.
Did you know that Walter Lindrum was only allowed to use one ball for the first three years of his billiards training? He had to learn to lag that one ball to any spot on the table precisely before his father would allow him a second ball. This is not the best example because Walter's father and older brother were already billiards champions but it does illustrate I think the levels that one can go to that most people don't even consider.
You know I am an advocate of systems and knowledge and patterns.
One pocket is a game where good things can happen if you consistently play the balls in certain patterns, such as tickies toward the pocket. It's very difficult to actually practice all the possibilites in a pool room setting but I could imagine a person spending months practicing nothing but until they got so consistent at figuring out the patterns that they would be freakishly good at that type of shot.
And in fact when good 3 cushion players play one pocket you can see how they apply that knowledge to the game to a great advantage.
I am in full agreement you in the practical sense that champions breed champions. I also think it's possible for an average player to be an above average coach. The great boxers generally didn't have champions training them.
In a theoretical sense though I do "firmly" believe that at least for the task of clearing the table it should be possible for a person of reasonable intelligence and adequate physical ability to learn all he needs to learn to run out any table according to the rules if given enough table time and sufficiently motivated. Like with a shock collar
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the willingness to change certain thoughts, attitudes and beliefs about the game.
The outcome of an effective system in pool is to maximize your touch and feel. This is intuitive and processed below the level of consciousness - there are ways to develop this "Touch" although it does take the willingness to change certain thoughts, attitudes and beliefs about the game......and how it is processed subconsciously.
The outcome of an effective system in pool is to maximize your touch and feel. This is intuitive and processed below the level of consciousness - there are ways to develop this "Touch" although it does take the willingness to change certain thoughts, attitudes and beliefs about the game......and how it is processed subconsciously.
to say "everything is a system" is ludicrous of course
You better have a system for brushing your teeth (or you may be missing some teeth), but to say "everything is a system" is ludicrous. Many things are, including our own body's circulatory system, cardiovascular system, immune system, lymphatic system, etc.
The strategic thinking and also the advanced performances in sports/games are systematic. Beginners have systems to do things "the hard way," and the more advanced a participant gets the more refined their systems become - this, as a direct result reflects on the consistency.....it's not "rocket science," although it may be "rocket system". I enjoy watching beginners play pool, always learning something new concerning "what not to do".
'The Systematic Game is the Teacher'
You better have a system for brushing your teeth (or you may be missing some teeth), but to say "everything is a system" is ludicrous. Many things are, including our own body's circulatory system, cardiovascular system, immune system, lymphatic system, etc.
The strategic thinking and also the advanced performances in sports/games are systematic. Beginners have systems to do things "the hard way," and the more advanced a participant gets the more refined their systems become - this, as a direct result reflects on the consistency.....it's not "rocket science," although it may be "rocket system".
I enjoy watching beginners play pool, always learning something new concerning "what not to do". 'The Systematic Game is the Teacher'
But knowing when and how is not a systemic approach.
I raced motorcycles for 5 years. There is no system to tell you how to go fast on a motorcycle. You can read all the books on motorcycle suspension, you can read all the books on motorcycle engines, but they will not make you fast.
Consider this....how can one racer be faster that another in the same car or bike. Both are using the same "system" but one is faster, why?
They both can read to same books about going fast, but one is faster, why?
When you see shit happening in front of you at speed on a track, you don't think, you react......if you think first, you could be dead. You think there is a system for this?
To use a system means your thinking......what you want is not to think, but react to see ,then do, nothing in between and no system will teach you this.
Wiping my ass is not a system but procedure,routine, method.....and then again maybe I get in the shower after a shit therefore never wiping my ass, that maybe my routine.
Too many people are applying the term "system" to things that are not.
A motorcycle is composed of very strict systems. The internal combustion engine is one of them.
Im glad you have gotten past the point of having to remember that paper in hand is the first step. I think most people who have played the game for a while have as well. But as I said before its semantics. You can call it an approach, or a method, or a procedure, or a routine. It doesnt matter, its all the same thing in the end, a systematic approach to doing things. Once youre proficient, you dont have to think about it. It takes me about a minute and 30 seconds to run a rack of 9 ball. I dont think. Ive played this game for about 35 years, and in all that time, amazingly the shots havent changed. Just like racing a car or a motorcycle. You feel when its time to shift based on experience. First time you drove a stick, was listening to the engine, or thinking about the tach a natural thing? No. You had to learn. You had to learn when to release the clutch etc etc etc.
Let go of semantics Duckie, youll be a happier person for it.
Chuck