Are Systems Really Vital to Play Great Pool?

[CJ Wiley]

Systems are useful and without them no human being would be alive

I "real eyes" you have a problem with the word "system" and, like many other words it does have different meanings......this kinda "goes" without saying (no, it didn't really "go" anywhere) 'The Linguistic Game is the Teacher'

The intent of this thread is to bring out the fact that even playing the game poorly requires a system.....and as we improve we are improving out system of play. There are systems of playing pool that are all encompassing....this means they cover:

1) Shot Speed

2) Angle Creation for Ball Pocketing, Position Play and Caroms

3) Cue Ball Targeting (where exactly you need to contact the cue ball to create any desired shot)

Systems are useful and without them no human being would be alive.

I don't recall saying we were just talking about aiming systems or that we were even talking about them in the first place. My point, to repeat, is that it is problematic when too broad a definition is used, particularly when a word has been used in a specific way by a sub-culture such as ours, for a century or more. In the case of pool, "system" has usually been used, to quote Mike Shamos, "A method of aiming shots, often based on the diamonds..." More recently of course we have other systems, some of which really aren't.

Lou Figueroa
according to CJ
used a "system"
to type this post

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's not a game, or a sport, it's an "art form"

Could it be that systems prevent one from playing their best?

So I answer no, that systems are not vital to playing great pool, but practice is., ie hit a million balls and this is training not a system. Big difference.


And this is what really pisses me off about those that still push any system as the way to play your best. This is not the truth.

I've been reading this forum for over a year now and NO ONE has ever stated that using their "system" is essential for anyone (but themselves) to play their best.

There's many ways to play pool, and although there are certain common denominators, it's a very personal way of self expression......it's not a game, or a sport, it's an "art form" to many people. There's many ways to play the piano, but at the end of the day, it's the music that makes the difference. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[West Point 1987]

Just wanted to point out this can be done with an extremely loose grip as well.

I'm not talking about the cradle part as a fulcrum with the heal of the hand pushing down so you can lift the cue...in my grip, the thumb, index and middle finger contact the cue with no daylight, firm enough that I could lift the cue off my bridge hand, and even write my name in the air.

 

[lfigueroa]

I "real eyes" you have a problem with the word "system" and, like many other words it does have different meanings......this kinda "goes" without saying (no, it didn't really "go" anywhere) 'The Linguistic Game is the Teacher'

The intent of this thread is to bring out the fact that even playing the game poorly requires a system.....and as we improve we are improving out system of play. There are systems of playing pool that are all encompassing....this means they cover:

1) Shot Speed

2) Angle Creation for Ball Pocketing, Position Play and Caroms

3) Cue Ball Targeting (where exactly you need to contact the cue ball to create any desired shot)

Systems are useful and without them no human being would be alive.

Well, what I realize is that you just want to play games with the word "system."

Some folks will buy into your game, others... not so much.

Lou Figueroa

 

[jburkm002]

Question? Since we are stuck on the definition of a system as it relates to pool. There are those that agree and disagree with aiming systems. That may never end. What about other systems? Kicking and banking for example. I think a good kicking system had value. I tried kicking by feel all my life and suck at it. Working on a kicking system and hope it helps. I guess diamonds are on the table for a reason. Never seen that question. Why are there diamonds on the table???

 

[JB Cases]

oh, I understand how a discussion forum works. (really But you said, "No where did I say that Mosconi used it." I was just explaining that I was aware of that and the genesis of my question. Now go pick a fight with another case maker or something.

Lou Figueroa

Then you should have explained that in your first response to palmerfan. But you didn't. Why not? Playing a little word chess and trying to set him up for the kill?

seems like if you already knew the answer it is you who are picking fights Lou.

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[JoeyInCali]

Question? Since we are stuck on the definition of a system as it relates to pool. There are those that agree and disagree with aiming systems. That may never end. What about other systems? Kicking and banking for example. I think a good kicking system had value. I tried kicking by feel all my life and suck at it. Working on a kicking system and hope it helps. I guess diamonds are on the table for a reason. Never seen that question. Why are there diamonds on the table???

Jimmy Reid's banking system is the nuts.

 

[lfigueroa]

Then you should have explained that in your first response to palmerfan. But you didn't. Why not? Playing a little word chess and trying to set him up for the kill?

seems like if you already knew the answer it is you who are picking fights Lou.

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Palmerfan said Mosconi used parallel aiming. I asked for a reference. How is that picking a fight? Maybe he knows something I don't? Maybe he read something somewhere? Heard an interview? Talked to an old timer? Maybe Mosconi himself told him that?

Being curious is not picking a fight, John.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JoeyInCali]

Palmerfan said Mosconi used parallel aiming. I asked for a reference. How is that picking a fight? Maybe he knows something I don't? Maybe he read something somewhere? Heard an interview? Talked to an old timer? Maybe Mosconi himself told him that?

Being curious is not picking a fight, John.

Lou Figueroa

Wasn't that in his book?
He placed some masking tape on the table.

Tournament director Wayne Norcross here used to tour with Willie as his opponent. He has pictures and articles to prove it. Wayne still ran 60-100 easily in his 70's here. He said, ghost ball was the only aiming way they knew then. Including Willie.
Let me say that again, Wayne said this himself. I never talked to Willie.
Wayne also patterned his slip stroke after Willie.
Here's Wayne in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb6CKYqTC98
Watch him slip the grip hand around :55 ever so slightly.

 

[JB Cases]

From an amateur perspective systems are not vital. Per my experience in conversation with many champions systems are vital to playing championship level pool. I define a system as a closed loop beginning with a method of aiming that is deliberate and an execution that is consistent. System implies reliability and that is vital to doing anything great.



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[lfigueroa]

Wasn't that in his book?
He placed some masking tape on the table.

Tournament director Wayne Norcross here used to tour with Willie as his opponent. He has pictures and articles to prove it. Wayne still ran 60-100 easily in his 70's here. He said, ghost ball was the only aiming way they knew then. Including Willie.
Let me say that again, Wayne said this himself. I never talked to Willie.
Wayne also patterned his slip stroke after Willie.
Here's Wayne in action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb6CKYqTC98
Watch him slip the grip hand around :55 ever so slightly.

It'd be interesting to see some of those clippings. Can you scan and post?

Lou Figueroa

 

[JoeyInCali]

It'd be interesting to see some of those clippings. Can you scan and post?

Lou Figueroa

It will be tough Lou.
Wayne retired and moved to the desert .

I had dinner with Dwayne back in '96 iirc at the Riviera in Vegas.
We walked by Lou Butera and he and Lou ragged on each other .
I asked Wayne how he knew Lou.
Lou beat him at the Stardust in the world straight pool championship ( iirc it was Wayne's fifth match. I believe Hopkins won the tournament but I'm not sure ).
When we got home, Wayne showed the paper clippings of that tournament.
Wayne is from PA too, like Mosconi.
I used to rag him on his stroke, calling it Philadelphia Pump Stroke.
Wayne , as you can see from that video, has a butter smooth stroke.
And he patterned it after Willie , as I mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mosconi&Moore.png
As you can see from that pic, Wilie holds the cue a little forward.
He slips his hand back in the final stroke.

 

[jburkm002]

Answer you own question. Find out what system the top 10 players use. If they say I don't use a system or say I don't know. Then put that in the feel column or the IDK I just shoot column. If they say practice, drills etc then put that in the I work on my game column. Or just share exactly what they say and put each player in their own column. Then everyone can take away what they want from their own words. Feel free to explain to them what system they are using or why they should use a system. I think it would be interesting project for some media type. Ask as many pro's as possible specific questions and lets hear the answers. Let them settle some arguments on here. So this could be interesting. Lets find specific questions for the pro's. Maybe some will answer and some won't. Meet a pro ask if they will answer a few questions? Might work

 

[CJ Wiley]

champion billiard players utilize diamond systems in one shape or form

The game of pool is all about creating angles, and controlling motion. The diamonds divide the table evenly and create some accurate "diamond systems," - champion billiard players utilize diamond systems in one shape or form (developing a precise touch is developed over time using the diamonds as a reference).

I learned these systems out of Willie Hoppe's book many years ago, and they're still as good today as they were then.

Question? Since we are stuck on the definition of a system as it relates to pool. There are those that agree and disagree with aiming systems. That may never end. What about other systems? Kicking and banking for example. I think a good kicking system had value. I tried kicking by feel all my life and suck at it. Working on a kicking system and hope it helps. I guess diamonds are on the table for a reason. Never seen that question. Why are there diamonds on the table???

 

[lfigueroa]

It will be tough Lou.
Wayne retired and moved to the desert .

I had dinner with Dwayne back in '96 iirc at the Riviera in Vegas.
We walked by Lou Butera and he and Lou ragged on each other .
I asked Wayne how he knew Lou.
Lou beat him at the Stardust in the world straight pool championship ( iirc it was Wayne's fifth match. I believe Hopkins won the tournament but I'm not sure ).
When we got home, Wayne showed the paper clippings of that tournament.
Wayne is from PA too, like Mosconi.
I used to rag him on his stroke, calling it Philadelphia Pump Stroke.
Wayne , as you can see from that video, has a butter smooth stroke.
And he patterned it after Willie , as I mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mosconi&Moore.png
As you can see from that pic, Wilie holds the cue a little forward.
He slips his hand back in the final stroke.

Well it was a thought, Joey. I love the old clippings and have seen a bunch. Always very cool stuff.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

The game of pool is all about creating angles, and controlling motion. The diamonds divide the table evenly and create some accurate "diamond systems," - champion billiard players utilize diamond systems in one shape or form (developing a precise touch is developed over time using the diamonds as a reference).

I learned these systems out of Willie Hoppe's book many years ago, and they're still as good today as they were then.

From Robert Byrnes's "McGoorty The Story of a Billiard Bum"" one of the great books on billiards:

#####
“In Hoppe’s book on how to play billiards is a long section on the diamond system, charts showing how to count the spots on the rails and figure out where to aim by using arithmetic. Now that is a joke, because he was not a system player. I went out to Navy Pier one morning during the 1950 tournament to practice and there was Hoppe all alone in the hall. He had the book open and was shooting shots from the diagrams... trying out the system. He looked up at me and said, “You know, Dan, it works. But you need a perfect stroke.’

Those charts were put in the book by Bryon Schoeman and a lot of them are haywire. Sometimes one of my students will show me the book and say, ‘Look at this McGoorty. Hoppe says you can hit the rail here and end up there.’

‘My boy,’ I say, ‘it can’t be done. Those charts are just pretty pictures.’

Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson.

Guys like Hoppe, Cochran, and Schaefer, they knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn’t need to use any system. They could get four out of two by elevating the cue alittle and putting a touch of masse on the ball. The system? What system? f*ck the system.’”
#####

Lou Figueroa

 

[JB Cases]

From Robert Byrnes's "McGoorty The Story of a Billiard Bum"" one of the great books on billiards:

#####
“In Hoppe’s book on how to play billiards is a long section on the diamond system, charts showing how to count the spots on the rails and figure out where to aim by using arithmetic. Now that is a joke, because he was not a system player. I went out to Navy Pier one morning during the 1950 tournament to practice and there was Hoppe all alone in the hall. He had the book open and was shooting shots from the diagrams... trying out the system. He looked up at me and said, “You know, Dan, it works. But you need a perfect stroke.’

Those charts were put in the book by Bryon Schoeman and a lot of them are haywire. Sometimes one of my students will show me the book and say, ‘Look at this McGoorty. Hoppe says you can hit the rail here and end up there.’

‘My boy,’ I say, ‘it can’t be done. Those charts are just pretty pictures.’

Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it. That was done by Copulus, Layton, and Clarence Jackson.

Guys like Hoppe, Cochran, and Schaefer, they knew the table so well, all the angles, all the returns, they didn’t need to use any system. They could get four out of two by elevating the cue alittle and putting a touch of masse on the ball. The system? What system? f*ck the system.’”
#####

Lou Figueroa

So, just to be clear. You said in a previous post in a time far away that IF Willie Mosconi himself woke up from the dead and told you in person that CTE was a good system you would say to him go back to sleep Willie. BUT you are willing to quote an alcoholic hobo for his hearsay remarks about what SUPPOSEDLY a world champion said about diamond systems?

And now, you have a living champion, a guy who can run you off the table without even thinking hard about it, telling you that he learned valuable information from those systems and to you McGoorty is the more valid source?

I happen at this very moment to have the ear of probably the best three cushion player in the United States. I will ask him about the value of diamond systems to 3 cushion and report back to you.

 

[SmoothStroke]

TRACK LINES.
If you know how to use track lines you can do anything you want.

Using stroke and spin you get into your desired track, it's pretty simple, very simple, very.
Emphasis on SPIN. Spin is a must in this game. I will save my center ball comments for another 100 years.

The game tells you what it wants, gives you your choices or options. You move the ball around in the track it asks you to follow, or you choose to follow,simple, simple, simple. A straight stroke and tip accuracy is another story.

Track lines are so easy it's stupid. Many people are making this game so complicated when it is so easy to understand. I wonder if they just love to hear themselves talk or want to day in and day out talk about how knowledgeable they are.

Line in, line out, track line, all visual. Ray Charles can do it with a straight stroke and spin.

It's not rocket science.

I can teach you any system you want, fry your brain, confuse you, takes about 95 years for a student to learn systems, 200 years to perfect them, then you stand at the table trying to play mathematician.

ORRRRRRR… in 15 minutes show you how to use the tracks and buy me an ice tea. All you need to bring is a straight stroke, spin, sense of humor. If you need a straight stroke we can fix that also.

I might try and confuse you with rail track and cue ball track.
Bring your natural, if you don’t have one I will give you one.

If you think Efren uses track lines you would be thinking on the right track.
Watches Is The Teacher

 

[genomachino]

We all use some kind of system......

Our brains are helping us do so many things that we can't even imagine what it does on a pool shot.

From a beginner to a pro player we all do something that could be considered a system.

It's pretty nice when there is something that we can do to help the brain get the job done.

Just like bowling. Some bowlers aim at the pins and some bowlers use the arrows on the alley.

The only difference is the ones that aim at the pins usually don't bowl that well.

The ones that use the arrows bowl much better.

Saying that a player doesn't use some kind of system if kind of silly.

If a player thinks he has to tap his foot 3 times and spin in a circle and does it every time, that's his system.

Kind of rediculous to even argue about it.

Just my opinion.

 

[lfigueroa]

So, just to be clear. You said in a previous post in a time far away that IF Willie Mosconi himself woke up from the dead and told you in person that CTE was a good system you would say to him go back to sleep Willie. BUT you are willing to quote an alcoholic hobo for his hearsay remarks about what SUPPOSEDLY a world champion said about diamond systems?

And now, you have a living champion, a guy who can run you off the table without even thinking hard about it, telling you that he learned valuable information from those systems and to you McGoorty is the more valid source?

I happen at this very moment to have the ear of probably the best three cushion player in the United States. I will ask him about the value of diamond systems to 3 cushion and report back to you.

No. Hoppe is the valid source.

"McGoorty" is filled with a wonderful amount of detail about pool and billiards during the early part of the last century and each reader has to make up their own mind as to how much credence to give Danny McGoorty's account. I, and apparently Robert Byrne, find him highly credible.

Lou Figueroa