2 Rail Bank System Question?

Zphix

Zphix

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yo fellas,

I saw a Dr. Dave video on the Plus Diamond system for 2 rail kicks because I've been finding myself needing to 2 rail or 3 rail kick more and more as I play more so I needed to practice them.

Dave outlines the Plus Diamond system, which works as follows:

L4KFJUm.jpg


Shooting at the rail number shifts the kick that many diamonds up table. So, the OB is 3 diamonds away from the CB on the same rail, so aiming through the 3rd number (or 1st diamond on the rail to the right) will send the CB 3 diamonds left on a 2 rail kick.

But, the examples shown in his video only outline shots where the CB and the OB are almost perfectly lined up making it easy to count diamond distances.

How do you use this when the OB and CB are not on the same line, but are diagonal like so:

7ArhSYz.jpg


How do you find the 1st rail target position in this scenario?
 
The plus system is pretty good when the balls are near a rail and the numbers are easy to find, but when the balls are not close to the target rail (the bottom rail in your pictures), I use a different method.

First, find the mid-point between the cue ball and the ball you're trying to hit. Then lay the butt of your cue over that point and point the tip directly at the center of the pocket which connects to the two rails you're using to kick.
Then shift the cue parallel across until its over the cue ball and your stick will be pointing at the correct contact point on the first rail (use moderate running english).
It requires no numbers or calculation and is pretty accurate once you get a feel for how much english is necessary.
 
I recall watching this video and one of the other techniques shown addresses your question.

The system for two rail kicks was to take the midpoint between the cue and object balls, take that point to the corner pocket between the two rails you intend on using, and use that line to parallel shift to your cue ball; that is where you aim.

I have to say that I used this method for a time with great success. However, as most people will mention, myself included, systems like this are a good general guideline, but better to understand the geometry, table movements, and factors involved in these moves than to "black box" the information with these systems.
 
You need to have an understanding of the path of a cb for starters. Starting out with this kicking method there is a lot of trial and error. If the OB is mid table and not perfectly on the line if you were to hit the CB at the 3rd number, then you have to move to the next number and see if the OB gets in the way of the imagined CBs path.

I prefer to use a different method for 2 rail kicks when the target ball is mid table;

- Find the middle point between CB and OB
- With your cue, point it through the middle point towards the pocket the CB will travel towards to hit the first rail
- Next shift the cue parallel over to the CB until its in the centre of the CB, your cue should point at the rail
- Where it points at the rail this is where the CB has to hit

* You have to hit the shot with running English, it varies from table to table but as a bench mark try it on the table you play on with 1 tip high, 1 tip running English at a speed just hard enough to hit the OB. Hit it at this speed all the time whilst figuring it out for tour table, but vary the amount of spin used until you consistently hit the OB. Next you can vary the speed to find out what spin you need to apply for what speed.

I find the above to be the most consistent way to hit 2 rail kicks. No diamonds, no math, just lines.
 
Pidge said:
I prefer to use a different method for 2 rail kicks when the target ball is mid table;

#1- Find the middle point between CB and OB
#2- With your cue, point it through the middle point towards the pocket the CB will travel towards to hit the first rail
#3- Next shift the cue parallel over to the CB until its in the centre of the CB, your cue should point at the rail
#4- Where it points at the rail this is where the CB has to hit
.
Click to expand...

I am having a tough time making a mental picture of your instructions, mainly #2, (I numbered the instructions for clarity)
 
Pidge said:
You need to have an understanding of the path of a cb for starters. Starting out with this kicking method there is a lot of trial and error. If the OB is mid table and not perfectly on the line if you were to hit the CB at the 3rd number, then you have to move to the next number and see if the OB gets in the way of the imagined CBs path.

I prefer to use a different method for 2 rail kicks when the target ball is mid table;

- Find the middle point between CB and OB
- With your cue, point it through the middle point towards the pocket the CB will travel towards to hit the first rail
- Next shift the cue parallel over to the CB until its in the centre of the CB, your cue should point at the rail
- Where it points at the rail this is where the CB has to hit

* You have to hit the shot with running English, it varies from table to table but as a bench mark try it on the table you play on with 1 tip high, 1 tip running English at a speed just hard enough to hit the OB. Hit it at this speed all the time whilst figuring it out for tour table, but vary the amount of spin used until you consistently hit the OB. Next you can vary the speed to find out what spin you need to apply for what speed.

I find the above to be the most consistent way to hit 2 rail kicks. No diamonds, no math, just lines.
Click to expand...

I basically use this method, except I will tend to arc away from the center point a little, so the butt of the cue travels a little faster than the tip when moving away from the line from mid point to the pocket.

I do this based on the fact that the cue ball path towards and away from that corner are not parallel. At least not when using running English. If you use center ball a lot of times you are still going to get more of an angle off of the second rail.

OP, you can use this method, and also check it with the plus system by looking at what diamond the butt of your stick points to, then repeat the procedure going towards the object ball. In your example, it looks like it would be 2-1/4 for cue ball and 7-1/4 for eight ball, so you would shoot towards the center diamond on the short rail.
 
fastone371 said:
I am having a tough time making a mental picture of your instructions, mainly #2, (I numbered the instructions for clarity)
Click to expand...
Number 2 is the mid way point between on and CB. Draw a line straight from CB to on, find the middle of this line. Now point your cue from the mid way point to the pocket in which you are shooting towards, move that line with your cue parallel until its over the CB. This is the line the CB needs to take with running English.
 
Zphix said:
How do you use this when the OB and CB are not on the same line, but are diagonal like so:

7ArhSYz.jpg


How do you find the 1st rail target position in this scenario?
Click to expand...

Good question. For any system there will always be shots
that fall in between the track lines.

The suggestions about using the midpoint estimation trick are good, but they need
some feel and experience to make them work, since the angle out isn't parallel to the angle in.
You can use spin to try to make those angles more parallel, but you still
must make a feel-based adjustment on how much spin to use at different angles and speeds.

Another way is a little more systematic, but takes practice too.

Memorize the complete track of the 2-rail kicks, not just the starting and ending point.
Memorize where the cue ball hits the 2nd rail on all of these tracks.
If you're lazy... you can see that the highest contact point (2-ball track)
hits about a diamond away from the corner.
And that the lowest (7-ball track) hits about half a diamond from the side.
So just memorize that all the other tracks fall in between and you can estimate.

B7BvqfY.jpg

Second version if it helps visualize things better.

So once you know these tracks, here's the trick I use to adjust.
This is your example pic, and I've got the system diagram laid on top,
but very faint so it's not too cluttered.

First, what track is the cue ball nearest? It's nearest the 5 ball's track.
Which I've made a faint white color.

lJic36z.jpg


See the white line from the 2nd rail to the hole? That's still our 5 ball track.
How far is the 8 ball from that line? I used that short yellow line to illustrate
that the gap between the white track, and the 8 ball, is about 2/3rds of a diamond.

So all I have to do is, start out like I'm aiming at the 5's usual spot on the 1st rail...
the middle diamond... and then adjust 'inward' enough to land 2/3rds of a diamond higher.

How would I land 2/3rds of a diamond higher? Well, if you wanted to land 1 diamond higher,
you would adjust inward half a diamond on the first rail. That's how the system works.
Every half diamond you adjust on the first rail, lands a whole diamond lower on the last rail.

So another way of looking at it is... whatever distance you want to adjust, cut that in half.
If you want to land 2/3rd diamond higher, adjust 1/3rd diamond on the first rail.

The black and red lines are there to illustrate a trick you can use to 'double check'.
If the angles were all perfect mirrors, the ball would move on the black line
(which happens to be a 45 degree line, so it's easy to predict).

But in reality the path doesn't move on perfect mirror angles.
The angle always widens. By the time the cue ball hits the last rail,
instead of landing where the black line ends, it lands a whole diamond
longer/lower than that. Which I illustrated with the red line.

That red line passes through the 8 ball, which tells me that
I'm probably on the right track (literally) to make a good hit.
 
Good post creedo.

A big problem with the center line parallel shift method is that it isn't symmetrical. Take creedo's 2-ball path. Find the correct English to make that shot in the corner (I need quite a bit of running English to make the system work). Watch the line that the ball travels to go into the corner pocket. Now shoot the shot backwards, from the corner down that same line to where the 2-ball is in the diagram. I come in very wide, by at least a diamond. I can't even hit the 2-ball from the corner because i can't hit close enough to the corner pocket.

What seems to me to be happening is that, when you hit at a shallow angle to the rail, the outgoing angle significantly widens. So, when you hit from the 2-ball to the corner, you're at a steep angle into the first rail, and it comes off the second rail fairly parallel. But if you go the other direction, you're at a shallow angle to the first rail, and so it does not come off the second rail parallel, instead it widens significantly.

Not sure why, but I assume it has to do with the topspin.

Feedback from creedo and others appreciated.
 
The 2-cushion parallel system is very, very broken at some angles. Maybe you can sort of make it work by changing the spin. If you construct the mirrored image of the target you are shooting at, you can tell very quickly which angles just don't work at all. How to construct that double-mirrored target is my July 2004 article here: http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004.pdf
A little time with targets like that will convince you that for many two-cushion shots you need to find some other system or pour on the compensation.
 
fastone371 said:
I am having a tough time making a mental picture of your instructions, mainly #2, (I numbered the instructions for clarity)
Click to expand...

I don't want to start another apa argument here, but go to apa website, click on pro instruction/ Dr. CUE. He has a lot of great videos on two rail kicks and banks. Or go to youtube and search Dr Cue. He has a lot of good videos. Some very basic, some more advanced. He explains the midpoint two rail kick.
 
BRussell said:
....Not sure why, but I assume it has to do with the topspin.

Feedback from creedo and others appreciated.
Click to expand...
The cue ball does not go in a straight line after hitting a cushion -- it curves. The angle into the cushion is almost never equal to the angle out. The angles and curves all depend on how much follow and sidespin you have on the ball. With all of that going on, it is a mistake to think of the cushions as mirrors except for a very limited range of shots.
 
fastone371 said:
I am having a tough time making a mental picture of your instructions, mainly #2, (I numbered the instructions for clarity)
Click to expand...

Here's one using a complimentary kick/bank point.
The mark where your cue intersects is your aim point on opposite rail.
If your target is an object ball away from a pocket, place your cue tip under opposite rail where the mirror image of the object ball would be.
 

Attachments

  • 20140525_205524.jpg
    20140525_205524.jpg
    93.6 KB · Views: 367
buckshotshoey said:
Here's one using a complimentary kick/bank point.
The mark where your cue intersects is your aim point on opposite rail.
If your target is an object ball away from a pocket, place your cue tip under opposite rail where the mirror image of the object ball would be.
Click to expand...

I assume that in the diagram A-G is supposed to be parallel to M-N. If so, and you hit the object ball full to bank it, it will bank short every time.

If you're kicking, the angle will depend on the speed and the cloth. Be sure to test the system on a strange table before you have to use it.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I assume that in the diagram A-G is supposed to be parallel to M-N. If so, and you hit the object ball full, it will bank short every time.
Click to expand...

That's true. If you hit pocket speed it will usually fall. If you hit em hard, it will end up short. Just hard enough to make the ball. Hitting harder then pocket speed will require english, or an aim point farther down tbe rail.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top