Challenge of Champions dump

That's pretty damn funny, considering the "I am right until you prove me wrong" crap that the AS people fling around. Who needs evidence, JB and CJ, when you've got video proof to "real eyes"? You guys are a hoot. Just goes to show that putting people on ignore doesn't keep them from saying stupid things.
 
Banks said:
That's pretty damn funny, considering the "I am right until you prove me wrong" crap that the AS people fling around. Who needs evidence, JB and CJ, when you've got video proof to "real eyes"? You guys are a hoot. Just goes to show that putting people on ignore doesn't keep them from saying stupid things.
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Once again, the video is not proof. Was Earl dumping when he lost to Efren despite only needing three games when Efren needed 17?

Did Shane dump to Alex after being 20 games ahead going into the last day going to 100?

The video BY ITSELF doesn't mean anything. IF taken in the CONTEXT of an alleged dump then some people will look at it and say, oh yeah sure of course he was dumping, what pro would ever miss those shots...

We don't go around talking about high stakes misses as if they are intentional missed shots UNLESS someone makes an accusation of dumping.
 
JB Cases said:
Well without corroboration it's not a fact it's a speculation. On the witness stand the cross examination would go like this,

Mr. Helfert, you stated it's a fact that the players illegally colluded to fix the outcome and defraud the casino, perpetrating multiple felonies is that true?

Yes, that's what I said.

So Mr. Helfert can you tell the court how you know that this is a fact. What knowledge of this conspiracy did you have and why did you conceal that knowledge from the authorities? Were you part of the conspiracy Mr. Helfert? Did you participate in the discussions prior to the alleged conspiracy? Did any of the defendants confess to you personally?

Please answer the questions Mr. Helfert.

Well, in my experience it looked like a dump. People were "talking" you know, rumors and then well you know I have been around and it just looked like Buddy was dumping. No, no one confessed to me. No I wasn't part of it. No I had no prior knowledge. But look man if you have any pool sense at all you can plainly see it was a dump.

Mr. Helfert have you ever before in your experience and capacity as a tournament director seen good players miss easy shots in title matches?

Yes of course I have.

Is it common practice to assume that the player who misses easy shots is fixing the outcome?

No, but it does happen.

Looking at exhibit A, B, C, D, and E, we have five title matches, each one for amounts equal to or greater than the one being played for in the match under investigation. In your opinion are these indicative of dumping when the players shown miss this same types of shots as Mr Hall missed?

um, no, those were clearly pressure situations where the player dogged those shots.

So Mr. Helfert is it fair to say that "dogging" looks a lot like dumping?

Yes it does. Done skillfully there is almost no perceptible difference.

So then Mr. Helfert is it then just your opinion that Mr, Hall dumped and not a fact as you stated?

Yes it is my opinion that Hall dumped.

You have no factual evidence of this alleged conspiracy do you Mr. Helfert?

No I don't. But anyone who knows pool knows what it was.

Ok Mr, Helfert, thank you. Let the jury understand that Mr. Helfert has no first hand knowledge of this alleged conspiracy, that his view is personal opinion only and not a statement of fact.

____________________________

Again, not saying it didn't happen, saying that I personally don't believe it did. I do certainly believe that bets were taken on Lebron. Hell if I were him I would have had twenty shills betting on myself at 20-1 fix or not. Whoever thought Mike Lebron could not win three short sets against that field is out of their minds.

I just HONESTLY think that given the Vegas reputation for retribution, the number of people involved, and other factors that it probably did NOT go down as has been reported here.

If I was the vegas book I would have said 20-1 only drew 11 bets? Well that's not worth doing, screw booking pool we have much more lucrative sports to book.

And with that I am done. I want to say this in closing, I HOPE that the players I grew up reading about and idolizing did not collude like this. And if they did then it's a shame. I can also wholeheartedly believe that Allen Hopkins did not participate because of all the players I have met he is the most upstanding of them in my personal dealings and the most business minded, long term vision minded player that I have dealt with.

Jay, I believe you fully believe what you wrote. You are much more plugged in than most of us and certainly having been the TD you were right there. So nothing personal against you, just pointing out that even though you were there you weren't part of it so at the end of the day there is still doubt legally speaking.
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If we're talking about a real courtroom I suspect there's a good chance they'd certify Jay as an expert (or a smart prosecutor would) or if they couldn't because he had direct knowledge of the event, he'd testify and they'd tie it to an expert. A defense attorney would likely stipulate that Jay was an expert because it would be really bad to have one expert get up and say that a known expert was correct in his opinion. By cross he may be able to discredit one direct but then you'd have a second expert saying that the known expert was right and he'd be undoing what the defense had just done

What were we talking about again?
 
JB Cases said:
That movie was awesome. Also goes to show you that the "story" depends on who is doing the telling.

I guess you are more like the Kathy Bates character? Set in your ways and demanding the world conform to your idea of what it should be?
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Funny, but that's really you.
A story that has video proof and an expert eyewitness.
But, you're pathological so it doesn't surprise me you'll argue a few more thousand words going around the circle and back and to the side.
 
Efren despite only needing three games when Efren needed 17?

Did Shane dump to Alex after being 20 games ahead going into the last day going to 100?

The video BY ITSELF doesn't mean anything. IF taken in the CONTEXT of an alleged dump then some people will look at it and say, oh yeah sure of course he was dumping, what pro would ever miss those shots...

We don't go around talking about high stakes misses as if they are intentional missed shots UNLESS someone makes an accusation of dumping.
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Your math is a little off on that one.
Earl was ahead 104-87 at best going to 120. Earl got to 117 after they were tied at 115. At 117, Earl went nuts after he scratched on a break .
That was for $75K ( it was 75-25 parity ) and neither one was jumping like Buddy Hall and David Howard against a huge underdog.
Earl didn't dog his $100K 10 racker.
Neither did Efren and Feijen for $165K in Tokyo.
Buddy didn't dog his $10K 10-ball match with Efren.
No way was he going to dog it against Lebron.
You can hire F Lee Bailey, Dr Lee and Allan Dershowitz, I still believe Jay.

These are champions.
 
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So if Mike hangs the 9 does Buddy miscue, foul, tapping the cue ball on a warm up stroke, follow the 9 into the pocket, or try to scratch in a different pocket?
 
The man regarded as one of the best 9 ball players of his era simply doesn't miss that combination when there's $50K on the line. OK - maybe he misses it once out of 1,000 times.

So we should conclude that a miss on a shot that BH makes 999 out of 1,000 times, coupled with a 20-1 betting line on his opponent, coupled with suspect play in several other matches, coupled with numerous persons speculating, discussing and in many instances confirming that it was a dump ..... that it wasn't a dump?!

If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's not an elephant.

Having said that, there's no way to prove that - so at the end of the day it's all speculation. All those players are and were great champions so maybe the events just aligned in such a way that the nearly impossible happened. At the end of the day, only the people who played know what happened.
 
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JB Cases said:
Well without corroboration it's not a fact it's a speculation. On the witness stand the cross examination would go like this,

Mr. Helfert, you stated it's a fact that the players illegally colluded to fix the outcome and defraud the casino, perpetrating multiple felonies is that true?

Yes, that's what I said.

So Mr. Helfert can you tell the court how you know that this is a fact. What knowledge of this conspiracy did you have and why did you conceal that knowledge from the authorities? Were you part of the conspiracy Mr. Helfert? Did you participate in the discussions prior to the alleged conspiracy? Did any of the defendants confess to you personally?

Please answer the questions Mr. Helfert.

Well, in my experience it looked like a dump. People were "talking" you know, rumors and then well you know I have been around and it just looked like Buddy was dumping. No, no one confessed to me. No I wasn't part of it. No I had no prior knowledge. But look man if you have any pool sense at all you can plainly see it was a dump.

Mr. Helfert have you ever before in your experience and capacity as a tournament director seen good players miss easy shots in title matches?

Yes of course I have.

Is it common practice to assume that the player who misses easy shots is fixing the outcome?

No, but it does happen.

Looking at exhibit A, B, C, D, and E, we have five title matches, each one for amounts equal to or greater than the one being played for in the match under investigation. In your opinion are these indicative of dumping when the players shown miss this same types of shots as Mr Hall missed?

um, no, those were clearly pressure situations where the player dogged those shots.

So Mr. Helfert is it fair to say that "dogging" looks a lot like dumping?

Yes it does. Done skillfully there is almost no perceptible difference.

So then Mr. Helfert is it then just your opinion that Mr, Hall dumped and not a fact as you stated?

Yes it is my opinion that Hall dumped.

You have no factual evidence of this alleged conspiracy do you Mr. Helfert?

No I don't. But anyone who knows pool knows what it was.

Ok Mr, Helfert, thank you. Let the jury understand that Mr. Helfert has no first hand knowledge of this alleged conspiracy, that his view is personal opinion only and not a statement of fact.

____________________________

Again, not saying it didn't happen, saying that I personally don't believe it did. I do certainly believe that bets were taken on Lebron. Hell if I were him I would have had twenty shills betting on myself at 20-1 fix or not. Whoever thought Mike Lebron could not win three short sets against that field is out of their minds.

I just HONESTLY think that given the Vegas reputation for retribution, the number of people involved, and other factors that it probably did NOT go down as has been reported here.

If I was the vegas book I would have said 20-1 only drew 11 bets? Well that's not worth doing, screw booking pool we have much more lucrative sports to book.

And with that I am done. I want to say this in closing, I HOPE that the players I grew up reading about and idolizing did not collude like this. And if they did then it's a shame. I can also wholeheartedly believe that Allen Hopkins did not participate because of all the players I have met he is the most upstanding of them in my personal dealings and the most business minded, long term vision minded player that I have dealt with.

Jay, I believe you fully believe what you wrote. You are much more plugged in than most of us and certainly having been the TD you were right there. So nothing personal against you, just pointing out that even though you were there you weren't part of it so at the end of the day there is still doubt legally speaking.
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Just wanted to let you know I didn't read any of this.

Like I said in the post right before this :

John if you want to pretend they didn't dump, pretend away, just without me !!! :D
 
JoeyInCali said:
Your math is a little off on that one.
Earl was ahead 104-87 at best going to 120. Earl got to 117 after they were tied at 115. At 117, Earl went nuts after he scratched on a break .
That was for $75K ( it was 75-25 parity ) and neither one was jumping like Buddy Hall and David Howard against a huge underdog.
Earl didn't dog his $100K 10 racker.
Neither did Efren and Feijen for $165K in Tokyo.
Buddy didn't dog his $10K 10-ball match with Efren.
No way was he going to dog it against Lebron.
You can hire F Lee Bailey, Dr Lee and Allan Dershowitz, I still believe Jay.

These are champions.
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Yep they are champions. Who HAVE dogged it for the cash in matches. I could go through 100s of you tube videos and prove it to you but what would that do?

David Howard made some great shots that he didn't have to make. If he was dumping then he could have missed those tough shots and NO ONE WOULD HAVE SAID HE MISSED THEM ON PURPOSE. But instead if he misses some easier ones then all of the sudden he is dumping???

Not only were these players colluding they were all apparently brand new to the art of hustling and missing on purpose??????

To the end that they did it in the most "obvious" way possible by dogging easy shots?

You think these players - all Champions - didn't ever learn how to miss?

My thought is that if they were dumping then no set would have gone hill/hill - no reason to let it get close at all and be forced to open it up.

My speculation is that Buddy would have lost 9-5 at best.

It's way easier to simply add a touch more spin and leave yourself hooked or in really bad position on the next ball that you have to try and bank than it is to deliberately miss ducks. Even I know that and I am not a champion.
 
JB, If you want ot believe a FAIRYTALE, then believe that Lou was betting on you
in your big match. He tried to dump, but just couldn't play bad enough. :grin-square:
 
JB Cases said:
My thought is that if they were dumping then no set would have gone hill/hill - no reason to let it get close at all and be forced to open it up.

My speculation is that Buddy would have lost 9-5 at best.
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Buddy wouldn't have snapped them the way he did on hill hill either imo. plus I just can't see a 7 way even split if all they could bet on Lebron was $200. And Buddy has reportedly said he did not dump.

Just not enough evidence for me to convict him or the others.
 
itsfroze said:
JB, If you want ot believe a FAIRYTALE, then believe that Lou was betting on you
in your big match. He tried to dump, but just couldn't play bad enough. :grin-square:
Click to expand...


Now wait a minute.

Lou Figueroa
not possible,
him canceling
all side bets
anywhos
 
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itsfroze said:
Just wanted to let you know I didn't read any of this.

Like I said in the post right before this :

John if you want to pretend they didn't dump, pretend away, just without me !!! :D
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Ok thanks for letting me know you didn't read it. :-)

It's not about pretending. It's about not condemning for me. Sorry but I have seen far too many people throughout history railroaded on flimsier evidence than this.

You all remember when James Walden was crucified by a lot of people here when a "stakehorse" got on telling a story about sending James a bunch of money and James allegedly using it all for drugs instead of going to the tournament the money was for?

For several days James was called every vile word known and put right up there with Hitler as one of the worst humans ever. A few of us defended him saying that doesn't sound like the James we know.

We were soundly told off.

THEN

What happens but to find out that it was a vindictive girlfriend who made the whole thing up.

OOOPS. Jumped the gun with the vilification huh?????

Now, you all want to use HEARSAY - to accuse seven professional players who each have had no taint on their reputations - of felony theft and conspiracy for a 20 year old event. A situation that was NOT picked up by any of the pool media all throughout the nineties, not discussed on any forum until one guy asked about it on a little forum and was told that Strickland said .......... more HEARSAY.

Now, again, MAYBE it happened. And then MAYBE it didn't. That's called REASONABLE DOUBT.

I have reasonable doubt based on all I have seen written about this so far. You and others lean the other way. Fine, every one of us is entitled to our opinion of it.

BUT you should keep in mind that pyschology has proven time and time again that people will interpret the SAME situation differently for a variety of reasons. One of which is when the situation is filtered through a set of anchors planted in their minds. Anchors are suggestions or made up scenarios that cause a person to react a certain way.

Go to you tube and find dozens of such videos showing this effect.

I PROMISE YOU that I could take just about any match where a player dogged it and with a little suggestive language convince a lot of people that the player actually dumped the match.
 
itsfroze said:
JB, If you want ot believe a FAIRYTALE, then believe that Lou was betting on you
in your big match. He tried to dump, but just couldn't play bad enough. :grin-square:
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I agree with that. He played pretty damn bad and I dumped myself.
 
Celophanewrap said:
If we're talking about a real courtroom I suspect there's a good chance they'd certify Jay as an expert (or a smart prosecutor would) or if they couldn't because he had direct knowledge of the event, he'd testify and they'd tie it to an expert. A defense attorney would likely stipulate that Jay was an expert because it would be really bad to have one expert get up and say that a known expert was correct in his opinion. By cross he may be able to discredit one direct but then you'd have a second expert saying that the known expert was right and he'd be undoing what the defense had just done

What were we talking about again?
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Exactly. :-)
 
punter said:
Oh no you didn't just throw Ronnie Allen under the bus. Do you have any real evidence that Ronnie Allen dumped? :eek::eek:
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P'shaw.. I bet if you had asked him, he would've said he didn't. At least we've put that rumor to bed using sound logic. :rolleyes:
 
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