A TOI Question to ponder- who uses it???

JayCall

JayCall

Stringbean
Silver Member
OK guys, I watch alot of pool matches and i was thinking about the players i have seen possibly using the TOI technique..

Here is a short list of players (aside from Cj of course) that I have recognized as using TOI or a system very similar to it. no offense if you are one of these players and you dont use it... these are just my observations..


Jayson Shaw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKf_d3G93y4
Dave Hemmah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQmYa__EUrU
Scott Frost
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xK05_cL8y0E

Maybe Alex P....(see him hitting alot of inside shots)

a couple of local shortstops around my neck of the woods play pretty good using it on exclusively half table shots to kill the cue...


All of these players seem to stick to the inside of the cueball the majority of the time..

any one else observe this or have any other players i may have missed?
 
Last edited:
I've seen Efren run through several racks of 10 ball and Straight Rotation using it...he only hits spin shots when he needs it. He seems to go back and forth; he'll use TOI for a while, then you'll see him drawing the CB across the table with low outside. Everyone seems to think he uses spin on everything, but he loves the inside of the CB, so long as he stays in line with it. It's really hard to spot (that's kind of the idea). A lot of times it will look like he's drawing with outside, but you can see the CB isn't spinning at all after contact or it kills of the rail.

Spanish Mike Lebron used to use it, too. I seem to remember a Mexican player that seemed to use it, but can't remember...I'll try and dig him up on YouTube.
 
I played that style and he told me Efren used the "Touch" of Inside

West Point 1987 said:
I've seen Efren run through several racks of 10 ball and Straight Rotation using it...he only hits spin shots when he needs it. He seems to go back and forth; he'll use TOI for a while, then you'll see him drawing the CB across the table with low outside. Everyone seems to think he uses spin on everything, but he loves the inside of the CB, so long as he stays in line with it. It's really hard to spot (that's kind of the idea). A lot of times it will look like he's drawing with outside, but you can see the CB isn't spinning at all after contact or it kills of the rail.

Spanish Mike Lebron used to use it, too. I seem to remember a Mexican player that seemed to use it, but can't remember...I'll try and dig him up on YouTube.
Click to expand...

That's right, it was Mike Lebron that first told me that Efren's "Secret" was using the "Touch" of inside......Mike knew I played that style and he did as well.

Many of our "inner circle" of top notch road-players using a "type" of TOI......I simply developed it into a teachable system that anyone can learn. It now takes me less than 3 hours to teach, however, most times I have to fine-tune fundamentals so the player's stroke is accurate and consistent enough to enjoy the full benefits of TOI.
 
Wish they would use a different cue ball some times. So you could see better how pros play shots. I argue with a buddy of mine. That good pros don't play as much side spin as we think. More center low and high. Or some inside

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
jburkm002 said:
Wish they would use a different cue ball some times. So you could see better how pros play shots. I argue with a buddy of mine. That good pros don't play as much side spin as we think. More center low and high. Or some inside

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
The Pro Cup ball can be very deceptive. It can appear the ball has lots of spin on it when in fact it doesn't. I've noticed this especially on draw shots as the ball comes back towards me. Its more practical to pay attention to how the CB reacts of a cushion to see what and how much spin has been applied.

Pros don't use as much spin as say a short stop for good reason. Its more accurate and takes out any variables in throw and such. What I believe sets a pro and short stop apart most of all though is their positional play, more so than their potting abilities. Pros play position extremely accurately, so rarely have to use side spin to get position on the next ball, unless they have planned to play it that way. I have a friend that loves playing with too much English, he enjoys it so why not. But to get to the next level he needs to start understanding less is more.
 
I think in a Robert Byrne video, he says pros stay within the circle around the nine on a nine ball as far as tips of English goes.

I believe I heard CJ say in his video if you are more than two tips of inside on your shot you should readjust your aim because it's too much.

Maybe CJ can verify this?
 
I firmly believe it's easier to cut balls using TOI

Cardigan Kid said:
I think in a Robert Byrne video, he says pros stay within the circle around the nine on a nine ball as far as tips of English goes.

I believe I heard CJ say in his video if you are more than two tips of inside on your shot you should readjust your aim because it's too much.

Maybe CJ can verify this?
Click to expand...

Two tips can sometimes be difficult to judge, especially on longer shots.

Try this, though, set up a thin cut with the balls 4/5 inches apart. Then go two tips to the inside and aim the middle of your tip or shaft at the edge of the object ball. Accelerate and cut the ball in the corner (or side)....if you cut it too much use less inside and try again.....you'll see how thinly and accurately you can cut balls using the inside reference point......on the other hand, if you try to use "outside" your tip will be pointing out into thin air.....you make the choice, I firmly believe it's easier to cut balls using TOI unless the shot required spin. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
CJ Wiley said:
Two tips can sometimes be difficult to judge, especially on longer shots.

Try this, though, set up a thin cut with the balls 4/5 inches apart. Then go two tips to the inside and aim the middle of your tip or shaft at the edge of the object ball. Accelerate and cut the ball in the corner (or side)....if you cut it too much use less inside and try again.....you'll see how thinly and accurately you can cut balls using the inside reference point......on the other hand, if you try to use "outside" your tip will be pointing out into thin air.....you make the choice, I firmly believe it's easier to cut balls using TOI unless the shot required spin. 'The Game is the Teacher'
Click to expand...

Using this method proved fairly consistent for cutting balls thin. I noticed the deflection to be similar on about every shot. Eventually I moved the balls farther apart and tried to estimate the deflection at different distances. I had some success with the longer thin cuts, but couldn't find a method of accurately hitting the contact point.

Then,rather than move my aim to the contact point, I used more deflection on the cue ball to get a thinner cut. Oddly enough it was easier to use the deflection to hit my aiming point than to try to simply aim at the object ball. If I had a thinner cut, I used more deflection to move the cue ball rather than aim at a different point.

Lots of possibilities, here. I still have quite a few ideas to test out, but I was hitting the balls much better. That's always good! :thumbup:
 
Since personal observation is being used, I say none of them us TOI, but whatever spin is needed to get to the next shot.

Thing about using personal observation is you can be very bias in your observation. Meaning you are gonna see what you want to.

I'd prefer a persons response to what they use rather than what someone believes someone use through just observation.

Oh.....TOI is right up there as useless......but that is just my observation.
 
duckie said:
Since personal observation is being used, I say none of them us TOI, but whatever spin is needed to get to the next shot.

Thing about using personal observation is you can be very bias in your observation. Meaning you are gonna see what you want to.

I'd prefer a persons response to what they use rather than what someone believes someone use through just observation.

Oh.....TOI is right up there as useless......but that is just my observation.
Click to expand...

That's because you don't get it. To say it's useless may be your observation, but it's wrong. On a back cut shot into the side pocket, if you use TOI, and aim to the inside pocket instead of center, your chances of a successful shot increase tremendously. And your cue ball doesn't pickup unwanted spin from the cut like it would if you shot it with center ball.

That's a fact, not just an observation.
 
duckie said:
Since personal observation is being used, I say none of them us TOI, but whatever spin is needed to get to the next shot.

Thing about using personal observation is you can be very bias in your observation. Meaning you are gonna see what you want to.

I'd prefer a persons response to what they use rather than what someone believes someone use through just observation.

Oh.....TOI is right up there as useless......but that is just my observation.
Click to expand...
Are you saying you've never shot a shot with inside to kill the cue ball, lessen the distance a cue ball travels after contact, to widen or shorten an angle or to throw a ball? I'm by no means a devoted TOI user, but if I asked my self the same questions I couldn't say I haven't. Once you realize the benefit of hitting some shots with inside is massively beneficial then you might rethink your post.
 
You're useless

duckie said:
Since personal observation is being used, I say none of them us TOI, but whatever spin is needed to get to the next shot.

Thing about using personal observation is you can be very bias in your observation. Meaning you are gonna see what you want to.

I'd prefer a persons response to what they use rather than what someone believes someone use through just observation.

Oh.....TOI is right up there as useless......but that is just my observation.
Click to expand...



Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
 
I think you are incorrect

jburkm002 said:
Wish they would use a different cue ball some times. So you could see better how pros play shots. I argue with a buddy of mine. That good pros don't play as much side spin as we think. More center low and high. Or some inside

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

From a discussion with Shane and someone who plays with Shane alot, they do use bottom and top, but would rather stay on the horizontal center of the cue ball. The reasoning is very simple. The tangent line doesn't change that way. When using top or bottom you are altering the tangent line, making it harder to know where the cue ball is going.
 
robsnotes4u said:
From a discussion with Shane and someone who plays with Shane alot, they do use bottom and top, but would rather stay on the horizontal center of the cue ball. The reasoning is very simple. The tangent line doesn't change that way. When using top or bottom you are altering the tangent line, making it harder to know where the cue ball is going.
Click to expand...

All well and good. Except for the little fact that using the tangent line means using a stun shot. Which means you seldom are hitting on the horizontal center of the cb. You usually are hitting it below center. To utilize the tangent line, the cb must be sliding when it makes contact with the ob. Also, if using right or left on the horizontal axis, the cb will still go down the tangent line, but the actual tangent line will shift a little due to hitting the ob in a different place to allow for throw and still making the ob.
 
Last edited:
Or you could use the RAM shot at all distances to stick as close to the horizontal plane of the cue ball. That's what the pros do, right?
 
"CJ, this can't be true, there must be a harder, more difficult way".

As far as perspective is concerned TOI fits the eye better because it's the same side of the cue ball that will contact the object ball for ANY cut shot. When cutting the ball to the right, you use "Right TOI," when cutting the ball to the left you use "Left TOI".

It's soooooo simple that it leaves players saying "CJ, this can't be true, there must be a harder, more difficult way".....and yes, there are lots of hard, difficult ways to play pool and many players are "stuck" using them.

TOI builds a foundation that allows players to improve day after day, week after week, and year after year.....I'm still learning new TOI shots to this day and I've used it for many years at the highest levels of competition.



Mikjary said:
Using this method proved fairly consistent for cutting balls thin. I noticed the deflection to be similar on about every shot. Eventually I moved the balls farther apart and tried to estimate the deflection at different distances. I had some success with the longer thin cuts, but couldn't find a method of accurately hitting the contact point.

Then,rather than move my aim to the contact point, I used more deflection on the cue ball to get a thinner cut. Oddly enough it was easier to use the deflection to hit my aiming point than to try to simply aim at the object ball. If I had a thinner cut, I used more deflection to move the cue ball rather than aim at a different point.

Lots of possibilities, here. I still have quite a few ideas to test out, but I was hitting the balls much better. That's always good! :thumbup:
Click to expand...
 
the TOI type players are always tough.

JayCall said:
Mcready uses this same technique on 99% of his shots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsHAG8YrXG8
Click to expand...

I believe you're right, even though the TOI wasn't known as a system or technique back then Keith certainly favors the NO SPIN (after contact) style of play.

We've played a few times and our styles are very similar, and that always worried me...I like playing players that use a lot of spin, however the TOI type players are always tough.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top