So is there footage of the famous 1990's Challenge of Champions dumping scandal?

[Straightpool_99]

.............

 

[8pack]

I wonder what it would take for those people to see the dump? Maybe if Lebron had hung the 9 in the pocket and Buddy "miscued". I still think they would deny it. The more I watch the clips, the more certain I become that this was a clear dump. I realize that one can never "UNSEE" something, but even trying my best to look at the clips with a neutral perspective, this match looks very "off"! I have allready written my analysis so I won't rehash that but... Buddy is not just missing shots, but he's playing in same way a B-player would on a bad day! He does not look like a professional at all. LeBrons position play is abysmal throughout, and Hall on a good day would have completely smoked him.

I guess maybe some people think that this is how the professional players played back then?! Having watched countless accu-stats tapes with Hall on them I can assure you that this is not the case. Buddy was and always has been a model of consistency. Unless you come up with some lame explanation where he was "jarred" or something, his play is very, very much out of character.

That all the organisational entities "did not see" the dump can be easily explained by the fact that it was not in their best interest to expose the scam. What would they possibly gain from that? Half the freakin' pro tour was in on it, for crying out loud! What were they going to do, shut down the entire pro tour and ban half the players (the best ones at that)? Exposing the scam would make the concept look bad. Nobody would take it seriously after such a scandal! So, the pro tour would look bad, the challenge of champions tournament would look bad and the players would look bad, and what would be gained? A small sum could maybe be reclaimed and some pro players could get a slap on the wrists (best case scenario in a case like this, where it is very hard to actually prove they did what was claimed). They would, if the evidence could be found, probably have pleaded down to some lesser crime. The casino was the only entity that might have benefited from exposing the dump, but they may have thought further ahead and decided that smothering this concept in its infancy was a bad move. So they lost chump change (for them), but learned a lesson about trusting pool players. They might have thought they got off cheap. This was after the mob era, and burying them in the desert was not an option. They might also have gotten some EXCELLENT legal advice telling them that the dump would be impossible to prove conclusively in court, and to save their precious money. (Court costs for a large case like this might have been more than it was worth).

Like CJ said, the challenge of champions continued on for quite some time. It wouldn't have if this scandal had blown up, IMHO.
Let the hijack/commercial go on.

100 percent dump....and I'm pretty sure they had a plan ready if the dump went south. Mike misses the last shot, Buddy had know choice but to make it..if it was a hanger.

Maybe the person backing the tournament realized the game didn't deserve what these foolish players done to it. Just maybe keeping it hush hush was the best thing. Player's come and go ,but the Game will always be here.:smile:

Who really knows!

 

[JB Cases]

I wonder what it would take for those people to see the dump? Maybe if Lebron had hung the 9 in the pocket and Buddy "miscued". I still think they would deny it. The more I watch the clips, the more certain I become that this was a clear dump. I realize that one can never "UNSEE" something, but even trying my best to look at the clips with a neutral perspective, this match looks very "off"! I have allready written my analysis so I won't rehash that but... Buddy is not just missing shots, but he's playing in same way a B-player would on a bad day! He does not look like a professional at all. LeBrons position play is abysmal throughout, and Hall on a good day would have completely smoked him.

I guess maybe some people think that this is how the professional players played back then?! Having watched countless accu-stats tapes with Hall on them I can assure you that this is not the case. Buddy was and always has been a model of consistency. Unless you come up with some lame explanation where he was "jarred" or something, his play is very, very much out of character.

That all the organisational entities "did not see" the dump can be easily explained by the fact that it was not in their best interest to expose the scam. What would they possibly gain from that? Half the freakin' pro tour was in on it, for crying out loud! What were they going to do, shut down the entire pro tour and ban half the players (the best ones at that)? Exposing the scam would make the concept look bad. Nobody would take it seriously after such a scandal! So, the pro tour would look bad, the challenge of champions tournament would look bad and the players would look bad, and what would be gained? A small sum could maybe be reclaimed and some pro players could get a slap on the wrists (best case scenario in a case like this, where it is very hard to actually prove they did what was claimed). They would, if the evidence could be found, probably have pleaded down to some lesser crime. The casino was the only entity that might have benefited from exposing the dump, but they may have thought further ahead and decided that smothering this concept in its infancy was a bad move. So they lost chump change (for them), but learned a lesson about trusting pool players. They might have thought they got off cheap. This was after the mob era, and burying them in the desert was not an option. They might also have gotten some EXCELLENT legal advice telling them that the dump would be impossible to prove conclusively in court, and to save their precious money. (Court costs for a large case like this might have been more than it was worth).

Like CJ said, the challenge of champions continued on for quite some time. It wouldn't have if this scandal had blown up, IMHO.
Let the hijack/commercial go on.

Well, consider this.

No one on any forum ever posted that the 91 challenge of champions looked like a dump PRIOR to someone introducing the idea (anchoring) that it was one.

So millions of people, many of them very good amateur players, watched this and no one got on a forum, back then Rec.Sport.Billiards, and Alt.Sport.Pool and said that it was a dump.

Why not? Did all these hard core pool fans who can all play a little conspire to keep it off the internet?

I think for the hell of it I might run an experiment in Vegas this coming July. I will ask players if they read AZB. If they say no I will show them the clips and record their reactions. I am willing to bet than not 2 in 10 say it was a dump. I bet they talk about pressure, I bet they talk about nerves, I doubt many will jump to the conclusion that it was a dump based solely on the videos.

I will do that with as many people as I am able to because it might hard to find a lot of people who don't read azb.

But after they give me their initial reaction, if they don't say anything about a dump I will say what if I told you that there was rumor of a dump, what do you think now?

I will bet that nearly 100% of the people would then say, sure it looks like a dump.

We will see if I am right. I am pretty sure I am based on the psychological studies already out there but in any event it should be interesting.

Oh and I won't show clips of the 91 COC. I will show clips of some other event where the favorite loses to the underdog with the favorite dogging shots. Where no one ever accused either player of dumping. Just to prove that introducing the allegation at the right moment influences people's perceptions.

 

[JoeyInCali]

100 percent dump....and I'm pretty sure they had a plan ready if the dump went south. Mike misses the last shot, Buddy had know choice but to make it..if it was a hanger.

Maybe the person backing the tournament realized the game didn't deserve what these foolish players done to it. Just maybe keeping it hush hush was the best thing. Player's come and go ,but the Game will always be here.:smile:

Who really knows!

If Jesus came down and told everyone it was a dump, a few will still deny it .
The word that this event was a dump was long been going on in the pool circles .
It wasn't started here.
Jay was the ref . He said it was a dump. What motive would he have to say that ? To get elected into the hall of fame ?
The videos just support the common knowledge already.
Pool table with home table pocket openings and US Open Champions jumping and dogging it sure look convincing to me.

 

[wayne]

On my worse day I would be a heavy favorite to make Buddy's combo.
On my best day I would be a big underdog to make earl's combo.

I set up a similar combo for my 3 year old grandson and he made it, using a bamboo pole. Of course he wasn't under the pressure of the top pros and he doesn't know what dogging is yet.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Well, consider this.

No one on any forum ever posted that the 91 challenge of champions looked like a dump PRIOR to someone introducing the idea (anchoring) that it was one.How could anyone start talking about the alleged dump until they started talking about it? This makes no sense the way it's written.

So millions of people, many of them very good amateur players, watched this and no one got on a forum, back then Rec.Sport.Billiards, and Alt.Sport.Pool and said that it was a dump.They had computers in 1991? I got my first one in about 2002.

John,

You listed a bunch of players the other day and said you never heard about any of them being "dumpers". This shows you are out of the loop in the USA pool scene, that's all.

What date was the earliest that you can say with certainty that you first heard of the 1991 COC being a dump?

ONB

 

[JB Cases]

If Jesus came down and told everyone it was a dump, a few will still deny it .
The word that this event was a dump was long been going on in the pool circles .
It wasn't started here.
Jay was the ref . He said it was a dump. What motive would he have to say that ? To get elected into the hall of fame ?
The videos just support the common knowledge already.
Pool table with home table pocket openings and US Open Champions jumping and dogging it sure look convincing to me.

If it was "common knowledge" then how come no one put it out on the forums until just a few years ago?

You were part of RSB. From 96 until now no one mentioned it on there as far as I know.

If it was such common knowledge then someone would have brought it up on a discussion forum.

If you think it's so easy to make those outs Joey how about we play a little game when I get to Hard Times. For $1000 per out I will start you out with the same starting position of every out that Buddy and David Howard had. You have to play them all. Each time you don't run out it's $1000 to me and each time you do it's $1000 to you.

Deal?

 

[JB Cases]

John,

You listed a bunch of players the other day and said you never heard about any of them being "dumpers". This shows you are out of the loop in the USA pool scene, that's all.

What date was the earliest that you can say with certainty that you first heard of the 1991 COC being a dump?

ONB

I guess I am out of the loop because on AZB, on RSB, in the pool mags and in all the books I have ever read no one has ever said that all those players were known to dump - and by that I mean outside of the 91 COC. None of those players have reputations for dumping backers and matches that I know of. I guess being involved in pool forums for 20 years and traveling around to hundreds of tournaments doesn't keep me in touch enough to know who the folks are who have a rep for dumping and who doesn't.

I want to say that this topic came up on here several years ago and that's the first time I heard of being a dump. Can't give you a date.

And to be clear I am not saying it was or was not. I am saying that the whole damn pool world kept it a secret if it was....which is highly unusual in the internet age of people dying to spread gossip and rumor.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

If Jesus came down and told everyone it was a dump, a few will still deny it .Let Him speak for himself please.

The word that this event was a dump was long been going on in the pool circles .
It wasn't started here.Correct.

Jay was the ref . He said it was a dump. What motive would he have to say that ?None at all. To get elected into the hall of fame ?

The videos just support the common knowledge already.Very flawed thinking. If you think something is true already and then see a video that supports your theory, it could be reinforcing your misperceptions.

Pool table with home table pocket openings and US Open Champions jumping and dogging it sure look convincing to me.Me too but I try to remain open-minded about it. It's tough./QUOTE]

Fair is fair.

ONB

 

[JoeyInCali]

If it was "common knowledge" then how come no one put it out on the forums until just a few years ago?

You were part of RSB. From 96 until now no one mentioned it on there as far as I know.

If it was such common knowledge then someone would have brought it up on a discussion forum.

If you think it's so easy to make those outs Joey how about we play a little game when I get to Hard Times. For $1000 per out I will start you out with the same starting position of every out that Buddy and David Howard had. You have to play them all. Each time you don't run out it's $1000 to me and each time you do it's $1000 to you.

Deal?

When you convince Jay it was not a dump, let us know.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=108502&highlight=1991+challenge+champions

 

[Old Nine Baller]

I guess I am out of the loop because on AZB, on RSB, in the pool mags and in all the books I have ever read no one has ever said that all those players were known to dump I did not ever say "all of those players were known dumpers" only that your post was the 2nd most hilarious in the entire thread because you don't know about the dumpers on your list.- and by that I mean outside of the 91 COC. None of those players have reputations for dumping backers and matches that I know of.You not knowing about them changes nothing. I guess being involved in pool forums for 20 years and traveling around to hundreds of tournaments doesn't keep me in touch enough to know who the folks are who have a rep for dumping and who doesn't.I guess.

I want to say that this topic came up on here several years ago and that's the first time I heard of being a dump. Can't give you a date.Bearing in mind that I don't much care about the goings on in the pool world, yes I can tell you when I first heard of it.

And to be clear I am not saying it was or was not.I understand that John. I am saying that the whole damn pool world kept it a secret if it was....which is highly unusual in the internet age of people dying to spread gossip and rumor.

John,

If I sent you a PM or an e-mail with the alleged "dumpers" on your list you still wouldn't know any more than you do now about them. You would just think I'm someone with an ax to grind for some reason unknown to you. If you don't know then you don't know, it's that simple.

ONB

 

[JB Cases]

When you convince Jay it was not a dump, let us know.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=108502&highlight=1991+challenge+champions

I am asking you. I am not even talking about it being a dump or not. I know what Jay said and Jay can't get up in a court and say it was a dump for a fact he can only say he THINKS it was one.

I am talking pool playing here. You think all the outs were cosmos so take my money and embarrass me. Any APA 5 ought to be able to get out with those outs that you are convinced were dumped on. We can go to the amateur side at HT with the big pockets and you show me that you can run out each time that David Howard and Buddy Hall did not for $1000 per out.

I am scared to take that bet if I have to be the one holding the cue.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I am asking you. I am not even talking about it being a dump or not. I know what Jay said and Jay can't get up in a court and say it was a dump for a fact he can only say he THINKS it was one.

I am talking pool playing here. You think all the outs were cosmos so take my money and embarrass me. Any APA 5 ought to be able to get out with those outs that you are convinced were dumped on. We can go to the amateur side at HT with the big pockets and you show me that you can run out each time that David Howard and Buddy Hall did not for $1000 per out.

I am scared to take that bet if I have to be the one holding the cue.

As usual you have a way of twisting and manipulating.
Buddy missed a hanger 8 and a hanger combo.
We can set those shots up and I can shoot them .
Hell, I'd stake Busti shoot that combo shooting behind his back from the other side of the table.

I'd shoot that 2-ball Howard missed too.

You just like arguing to no end.

 

[JB Cases]

John,

If I sent you a PM or an e-mail with the alleged "dumpers" on your list you still wouldn't know any more than you do now about them. You would just think I'm someone with an ax to grind for some reason unknown to you. If you don't know then you don't know, it's that simple.

ONB

Well I would know what you have to say. If you are reporting on matches that no one else has ever reported on openly then I would file it away as unconfirmed.

One thing I have learned on forums is that it's the easiest thing in the world to tarnish people's reputations with veiled accusations of impropriety that can't be revealed. I know so and so did such and such but I can't talk about it. Just trust me, he's a scumbag.

People have done it to me so I am pretty sensitive when I see it being done to others.

You might be right, Rempe, Hall, Varner, Howard, Lebron, and Sigel might all be people who dump every match they play in. They might have dumped the rail for 20 years. My point was and is that they are not PUBLICLY known for this.

Maybe you should write a book if you have a lot of inside dirt to tell. Jay's Pool Wars obviously wasn't detailed enough with the dirt on these guys.

 

[JB Cases]

As usual you have a way of twisting and manipulating.
Buddy missed a hanger 8 and a hanger combo.
We can set those shots up and I can shoot them .
Hell, I'd stake Busti shoot that combo shooting behind his back from the other side of the table.

I'd shoot that 2-ball Howard missed too.

You just like arguing to no end.

Why not run the table? You act like pros never miss. You mention Busty I have seen him miss STRAIGHT IN SHOTS from feet. I have also seen run out sets.

I don't know why you think that combo was so easy, especially for 50k. But beyond that if it was a dump then Buddy is the stupidest dumper on the planet because he should have never let it get to the point of him having to shoot it.

He should have lost the set 9-5 and never let it get to hill-hill.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Well I would know what you have to say. If you are reporting on matches that no one else has ever reported on openly then I would file it away as unconfirmed.

One thing I have learned on forums is that it's the easiest thing in the world to tarnish people's reputations with veiled accusations of impropriety that can't be revealed. I know so and so did such and such but I can't talk about it. Just trust me, he's a scumbag.

People have done it to me so I am pretty sensitive when I see it being done to others.

You might be right, Rempe, Hall, Varner, Howard, Lebron, and Sigel might all be people who dump every match they play in. They might have dumped the rail for 20 years. My point was and is that they are not PUBLICLY known for this.

Maybe you should write a book if you have a lot of inside dirt to tell. Jay's Pool Wars obviously wasn't detailed enough with the dirt on these guys.

John,

Some (more than 1) of those guys are publicly (in poolrooms) known for it. I'll not tarnish anyone here by naming names of anything I can't prove. I'm not looking to write a book and I don't have a lot of inside dirt to tell. I'm just telling you that simply because you don't know something doesn't mean that others don't, that's all.

ONB

 

[JoeyInCali]

Why not run the table? You act like pros never miss. You mention Busty I have seen him miss STRAIGHT IN SHOTS from feet. I have also seen run out sets.

I don't know why you think that combo was so easy, especially for 50k. But beyond that if it was a dump then Buddy is the stupidest dumper on the planet because he should have never let it get to the point of him having to shoot it.

He should have lost the set 9-5 and never let it get to hill-hill.

Did Busti shoot around .700?

JAY SAW THAT LAYOUT himself . RIGHT THERE IN PERSON.
IT WAS A HANGER.
Buddy hit the 8-ball on the wrong side . Missed the pocket by 4 inches or so

It's the sum of all parts that convinces people it was a fixed tournament .
You can go on and on on .
Let me know when Jay changes his mind.

 

[PINKLADY]

....If you are reporting on matches that no one else has ever reported on openly then I would file it away as unconfirmed....

this is easily solved.

call Matt Braun.
call Mark Griffin.
call Greg Sullivan.
call Badi Nazhat.
call Barry Hearn.

.

 

[JB Cases]

this is easily solved.

call Mike, the promoter that Jay referenced.
call Mark Griffin.
call Greg Sullivan.
call Badi Nazhat.
call Barry Hearn.

.

Matt Braun you mean?

I am not sure why you listed the other promoters. Do they all have stories of the top players mentioned dumping in their events that we don't know about?

I have never heard Mark, Greg, Badi, or Barry mention anything about those players dumping. Have you?

 

[JB Cases]

Did Busti shoot around .700?

JAY SAW THAT LAYOUT himself . RIGHT THERE IN PERSON.
IT WAS A HANGER.
Buddy hit the 8-ball on the wrong side . Missed the pocket by 4 inches or so

It's the sum of all parts that convinces people it was a fixed tournament .
You can go on and on on .
Let me know when Jay changes his mind.

Again why did Buddy go to the shot? he didn't have to, he could have missed any of the other balls, he could have played out of position. He could have even played the position on the combo so that it was even more off angle.

You keep hanging onto that missed combo as if it's the smoking gun but in fact it's not. My contention is that an experienced player like Buddy doesn't even play it like that if he intends to miss. Instead he would play it so that the cue ball position makes a miss much more likely and thus more believeable.

All it would take is a little extra juice to put the cue ball in positions where the position play isn't so perfect. But he didn't do that....no he played for optimal cue ball position to make the combo and then dogged it.

Again, if it was a dump, and people have called me to tell me it was, these champions were the worst dumpers on the planet to let it go hill/hill with Buddy facing what you think was an unmissable combination on the nine.