ivory ban?

[cueaddicts]

And we can now proudly say that it will not enter into the United States.

When they die, why not use the material as part of a highly focused conservation strategy. Thousands do die each year of natural causes, you know. Maybe you don't....lol. Hell, guess we should just burn it or crush it all.

Your assumption is that **all ivory** used in pool cues or other art forms that have been around for tens of thousands of years is ALL illegally obtained and from poached, murdered animals. That is factually incorrect and beyond ridiculous. This isn't a black and white issue like that. But that's the mindset in DC these days. No common sense, just looking for an "easy fix" that gets headlines. People with that mindset aren't capable of a complex discussion or solution.

 

[slide13]

I'm all for getting away from ivory being used in cues and for any control they can put in place to keep new ivory from coming into the country. I am completely for doing whatever we can to protect elephants from the brutality of the illegal ivory trade.

That being said, I don't think making it illegal to sell cues that already contain ivory is a proper course of action. It's really not fair to those who purchased these items when it was perfectly legal to do so and I don't see it having a significant enough impact on the value of new ivory that there would be any harm in making an exception.

I think there needs to be a grace period to give everyone a chance with products that currently contain ivory to get proper notarized documentation of the item (pictures, descriptions, etc) and then let such documentation serve to allow future interstate sales. After this one year grace period you're out of luck for getting this documentation and all interstate sales of non-documenented products containing ivory could be illegal. I think that would give the much needed loophole for those who have acted in accordance with the law and will soon find themselves in possession of items that they can no longer sell out of state.

 

[slide13]

When they die, why not use the material as part of a highly focused conservation strategy. Thousands do die each year of natural causes, you know. Maybe you don't....lol. Hell, guess we should just burn it or crush it all.

Your assumption is that **all ivory** used in pool cues or other art forms that have been around for tens of thousands of years is ALL illegally obtained and from poached, murdered animals. That is factually incorrect and beyond ridiculous. This isn't a black and white issue like that. But that's the mindset in DC these days. No common sense, just looking for an "easy fix" that gets headlines. People with that mindset aren't capable of a complex discussion or solution.

The problem is you can't tell if ivory is from those that die naturally vs those that are poached and slaughtered. If it was easy to do so then your solution would make a lot of sense but it isn't. Allowing any legal trade of new ivory only encourages more poaching, in my opinion as it makes it easy and incredibly low risk to move illegal ivory when there is perfectly legal ivory being bought and sold.

 

[BJTyler]

??

Maybe. We don't really know yet what the impact will be. Maybe other countries will follow suit. I'm glad we're setting the example. It has to start somewhere.

Seems as if many recent policies have been enacted under similar circumstances.

BTW...I fully promote sensible, well thought out policies/laws that promote the ethical treatment of all animals (magnificent, gorgeous, or otherwise) without recklessly infringing upon the liberty of the individual.

 

[BJTyler]

What normally happens to the price of items the government tries to ban?

Generally speaking, when an item is banned, the "price" you pay to obtain that item goes up, while the "price" you receive for selling the item goes down.

The difference in these two "prices" is exactly equal to the expected fines and penalties for breaking the law.

 

[cueaddicts]

The problem is you can't tell if ivory is from those that die naturally vs those that are poached and slaughtered. If it was easy to do so then your solution would make a lot of sense but it isn't. Allowing any legal trade of new ivory only encourages more poaching, in my opinion as it makes it easy and incredibly low risk to move illegal ivory when there is perfectly legal ivory being bought and sold.

Of course. Whatever the proper thing to do is....that will certainly not be an easy task. The easy approach is what's being done. I wonder how much money does our government plan to go into debt for to enforce this new interstate sale ban. Once this ban goes into effect, it will be business as usual for poachers because the demand for illegal ivory is not here. If that is the case, then how is what they are doing the "right" and "proper" action.

Later folks....just more food for thought.

 

[jtaylor996]

And we can now proudly say that it will not enter into the United States.

We could say that in 1980...

 

[jtaylor996]

It turns out elephants are just jerks, anyways:

 

[jtaylor996]

The problem is you can't tell if ivory is from those that die naturally vs those that are poached and slaughtered. If it was easy to do so then your solution would make a lot of sense but it isn't. Allowing any legal trade of new ivory only encourages more poaching, in my opinion as it makes it easy and incredibly low risk to move illegal ivory when there is perfectly legal ivory being bought and sold.

It is not, and has not been for a very, very long time legal to bring in raw ivory in any way shape or form to the US. The only ivory that can be brought in has to be part of some antique worked item, with appropriate documentation to that fact.

What you assume the new regs are doing has already been on the book for decades...

 

[FranCrimi]

We could say that in 1980...

Oh right, I stand corrected. The new law is more extensive.

 

[jtaylor996]

Mammoth ivory is legal, in fact FWS suggests that musical instruments get refitted with that instead of elephant ivory.

So the elephant in this room is that the solution to the problem is complete extinction of elephants. Then it would be perfectly legal to use and deal in old stocks of ivory.

 

[slide13]

It is not, and has not been for a very, very long time legal to bring in raw ivory in any way shape or form to the US. The only ivory that can be brought in has to be part of some antique worked item, with appropriate documentation to that fact.

What you assume the new regs are doing has already been on the book for decades...

Yes, I'm aware of that, I was refuting the argument that using ivory from animals that died of natural causes was a good idea because it didn't directly involve the killing of elephants. The previous post I quoted was the impetus for my statement.

I'm fine with legal ivory currently used in things like cues and instruments and I believe there should be a way to ensure the ability to sell these items legally in the future through some sort of verification or registration. I would be for a brief grace period to allow bulk sellers to move their existing stock of legally obtained ivory. I would like to see future use of ivory, regardless of its source, eliminated as I believe any active ivory market encourages illegal poaching. I do realize that the US contribution to that is negligible compared to other countries, but that doesn't make it morally or ethically okay on my view.

 

[jtaylor996]

The FWS themselves refute your statement that the US market as it currently sits encourages poaching.

 

[skins]

So by your reasoning we should go into EVERYTHING with the thought that it could all be taken away at any moment..that is NOT freedom...if you agree than you don't want freedom... Sad day in America if there are more opinions like yours out there... Very sad..

One more thing your thought of you buying even though YOU KNEW you were contributing to the horror makes your argument even worse for you... Not looking good Fran...

Sorry, I have cues with ivory as well that I purchased back when I was willing to rationalize how the ivory came to be in the cue. Now I'm willing to accept the consequences because I accept now how horrific it all was.

Such is life. Making things right often comes at a price.

 

[slide13]

The FWS themselves refute your statement that the US market as it currently sits encourages poaching.

Really? This is from the FWS website:


What is the U.S. role in the illegal elephant ivory trade?
The United States is among the world’s largest consumers of wildlife, both legal and illegal. As with any black market trade, it is difficult to determine the exact market value or rank the U.S. role in comparison to other nations. However, we remain a significant ivory market, and we must continue to be vigilant in combating illegal ivory trade. By effectively controlling illegal ivory trade at home and assisting elephant range states and consumer countries around the world, we can have a significant impact on elephant conservation.

Our current laws and regulations focus on controlling import and export, while allowing some ivory trade within the United States. Ivory sold in the United States typically involves worked items such as carvings and components of larger finished products such as knife handles, billiard cues, and furniture. Ivory is sold in retail shops as well as through online sellers. Though there is trade in antiques and other legally acquired ivory imported prior to the 1989 AECA ivory import moratorium, we believe a substantial amount of elephant ivory is illegally imported and enters the domestic market. It is extremely difficult to differentiate legally acquired ivory from ivory derived from elephant poaching. Our criminal investigations and anti-smuggling efforts have clearly shown that legal ivory trade can serve as a cover for illegal trade. As just one example, Service and state officers seized more than two million dollars-worth of illegal elephant ivory from two New York City retail stores in 2012.

 

[Colonel]

The FWS themselves refute your statement that the US market as it currently sits encourages poaching.

Quite frankly I don't give a tinkers damn what the FWS thinks. I don't think they have a right to tell me what I or anyone else can do with cues I've owned for years

 

[Afrika]

This subject has been beaten to death on African Hunting and Musician websites for a couple of months. Bottom line is unless one has a very deep pocket for legal fees do not purchase nor sell any item with ivory after this month's end----intra or inter state. Reams of paperwork required to verify the ivory and the buyer or seller is left holding the bag if the paperwork or origin and date is forged or done incorrectly. Just not worth the risk. As for import, I legally brought African ivory tusks into the USA under CITES about four years ago. In fact, until this year it was legal to hunt and bring the ivory back under CITES treaty. Still legal to hunt, just can't bring the ivory to the USA. Other countries still allow the hunted ivory entry under CITES. Sadly the hunting money funding the anti poaching effort in Africa will dry up leaving only the local people eating the elephants and the poachers killing them for ivory----much like Kenya. A slow path to extinction.

 

[BHQ]

It is not, and has not been for a very, very long time legal to bring in raw ivory in any way shape or form to the US. The only ivory that can be brought in has to be part of some antique worked item, with appropriate documentation to that fact.

What you assume the new regs are doing has already been on the book for decades...

bingo, we have a winner!!!

 

[jtaylor996]

Really? This is from the FWS website:


What is the U.S. role in the illegal elephant ivory trade?
The United States is among the world’s largest consumers of wildlife, both legal and illegal. As with any black market trade, it is difficult to determine the exact market value or rank the U.S. role in comparison to other nations. However, we remain a significant ivory market, and we must continue to be vigilant in combating illegal ivory trade. By effectively controlling illegal ivory trade at home and assisting elephant range states and consumer countries around the world, we can have a significant impact on elephant conservation.

Our current laws and regulations focus on controlling import and export, while allowing some ivory trade within the United States. Ivory sold in the United States typically involves worked items such as carvings and components of larger finished products such as knife handles, billiard cues, and furniture. Ivory is sold in retail shops as well as through online sellers. Though there is trade in antiques and other legally acquired ivory imported prior to the 1989 AECA ivory import moratorium, we believe a substantial amount of elephant ivory is illegally imported and enters the domestic market. It is extremely difficult to differentiate legally acquired ivory from ivory derived from elephant poaching. Our criminal investigations and anti-smuggling efforts have clearly shown that legal ivory trade can serve as a cover for illegal trade. As just one example, Service and state officers seized more than two million dollars-worth of illegal elephant ivory from two New York City retail stores in 2012.

Really. Read here, their logic makes no sense in light of the size of the illegal market in the US, vs the amount being poached. The poached stuff isn't coming here.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougban...l-elephants-and-treat-americans-as-criminals/

To quote:

Outlawing this trade makes no sense. In September 2012 USFWS admitted: “we do not believe that there is a significant illegal ivory trade into this country.”

 

[Afrika]

Perhaps the real goal is anti hunting? Hoping Americans will stop legal hunting of elephants if they cannot bring the ivory back. That is all that makes sense.