Pivot Point

[Jaden]

Pivot point information would dispel arguments over deflection as well.

The pivot point is one of the most powerful concepts in pool, IMHO.

Every cue has one (or more, see above), they are easy to find and easy to use, and they reduce a lot of the "religious" arguments about FHE, BHE, low deflection, high deflection, good cue, bad cue, etc., into unnecessary vapor.

Yet, 100% of the players I have randomly polled at my local pool hall have never heard of the concept.

In my opinion, pivot points should be disclosed as routinely as other cue measurements (weight, length, tip diameter, etc.).

The pivot point will tell you exactly how much deflection a given shaft has.

The farther back the pivot point, the lower the deflection. It is really that simple.

Also when changing cues for a feel player it is still a must know because the closer a new cue is to having the pivot point of your old cue, the easier it will be for you to adjust to it.


Jaden

 

[Jaden]

There are other stroke flaws that can cause BHE failure...

I am going to need a few days....
this is all kind of new to me.

aside from that,
DTL said:

Must be raising up or moving during the last forward stroke

I just recently noticed this is a problem for me.
I might need a a couple weeks...
thx for the input guys, maybe we all get a little better.
steven

Squeezing the cue differently, swiping, pulling up, the closeness of parallel to the table the orientation is of the shaft.

All of these things can minimize the effectiveness of BHE.

As it so happens all of these things will also throw you off when using methods other than BHE also including feel, BHE gives you the ability to know it's not the adjustment for spin that is wrong (in most cases and types of shots).

Jaden

 

[dr_dave]

I found my pivot point as well, following drDave video.
I was able to spin the ball in place pretty good a couple times, not always.

I can see the benefit of bridging exactly there on a breakshot in nine ball.

On a long straight shot, I see no advantage whatsoever.
If, on an off center hit, whitey is indeed sent on the correct line due to my proper bridge on the pivot point, whitey is still spinning and must throw the shot off.
What other, if any applications of this knowledge besides a breakshot am I missing?

Back-hand English (BHE) with the bridge at the natural pivot length is appropriate for short and/or high-speed shots. For slow and longer shots, Front-hand English (FHE) is more appropriate. For all shots in between, you either need to vary your bridge length, or use a combination of BHE and FHE, or just aim intuivtively based on many years of successful practice and experience. For more info, see:

aim compensation for squirt, swerve, and throw
and
back-hand english (BHE) and front-hand english (FHE)

Regards,
Dave

 

[jburkm002]

Do pros adjust for all this or do they just shoot?

 

[dr_dave]

Do pros adjust for all this or do they just shoot?

Pros typically adjust for squirt, swerve, and throw instinctively, intuitively, and/or subconsciously based on many years of successful practice and experience.

For those who haven't yet put in all of the table time necessary to do this well, the BHE, FHE, and BHE/FHE-combo techniques can be helpful.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Pidge]

Do pros adjust for all this or do they just shoot?

The vast majority just shoot. If you have the experience, then there is no substitute for using English. If you are not 100% familiar with using English for the majority of shots, then BHE, FHE and a mixture of the two will do just fine if done correctly. Eventually you will get a feel for what "looks right" for the shot at hand when you angle your cue to play with side spin. Once you start recognizing that shots look like they should pot when using BHE, FHE or a mixture of the two then it is time to start relying on previous experience and getting down with your tip pointing at the part of the cue ball you intend on hitting.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Do pros adjust for all this or do they just shoot?

The have to adjust or the balls won't go in. I guess the real question is whether they do it consciously or not. I think when they're playing well it's unconscious.

I remember one BCA Trade Show where Bob Meucci had his Myth Destroyer (squirt/deflection tester) on the floor. He was demonstrating an inch or two of squirt and one top player remarked in surprise, "My cue does that?!?" It is possible to play very, very well without knowing any of this stuff.

 

[Jaden]

I've already proven that for the majority of shots that's not the case.

The have to adjust or the balls won't go in. I guess the real question is whether they do it consciously or not. I think when they're playing well it's unconscious.

I remember one BCA Trade Show where Bob Meucci had his Myth Destroyer (squirt/deflection tester) on the floor. He was demonstrating an inch or two of squirt and one top player remarked in surprise, "My cue does that?!?" It is possible to play very, very well without knowing any of this stuff.

I've shown that this isn't the case.

I setup a LIVE stream with a caller who called in and after getting down on the shot aiming straight in, I had the caller tell me what english to put on the ball.

By elevating and lowering my bridge and pivoting the cue, I made every shot that wasn't very slow or VERY long without adjusting.

IOW, the vast majority of shots do not require additional adjustment.

YES, there are situations that require adjustment, but the vast majority of shots can easily be made using center ball aiming and BHE.

It helps to minimize swerve effects by elevating and lowering the bridge for follow and draw and keeping the cue relatively parallel to the playing surface.

There are also stroke flaws that many people might not even consider flaws that can influence the effectiveness of BHE.

Jaden

p.s. This was done on a table with 4" corner pockets...

 

[Matt]

The have to adjust or the balls won't go in. I guess the real question is whether they do it consciously or not. I think when they're playing well it's unconscious.

I remember one BCA Trade Show where Bob Meucci had his Myth Destroyer (squirt/deflection tester) on the floor. He was demonstrating an inch or two of squirt and one top player remarked in surprise, "My cue does that?!?" It is possible to play very, very well without knowing any of this stuff.

Even though I know about the physics and the adjustments I'm making when I shoot, I don't think about it when I'm playing unless I'm confronted with an unusual shot, usually when other balls are blocking one of my normal position routes. In those cases, the knowledge comes in handy, but there's no substitute for experience and muscle memory when you need to consistently execute.

I think that the real edge that you gain by understanding what's going on is that you can apply that to understand what's happening when a shot doesn't go as planned. Without knowing about cue ball squirt, and other effects such as throw and swerve, most players conclude that they didn't choose the correct contact point on the object ball when they were lining up the shot. In reality, they probably just didn't compensate correctly.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I think that the real edge that you gain by understanding what's going on is that you can apply that to understand what's happening when a shot doesn't go as planned. Without knowing about cue ball squirt, and other effects such as throw and swerve, most players conclude that they didn't choose the correct contact point on the object ball when they were lining up the shot. In reality, they probably just didn't compensate correctly.

I agree with this but I think a player who works on their misses without the background knowledge will eventually discover where to point the cue stick to make the shot and then the shot will feel right to them for the required line up.

 

[jburkm002]

Be nice once technology catches up. Meaning I watched Darren Appletons drill video. He would tell everyone what English he was playing using the clock method. What always gets me when someone says I used 3 o'clock but not how they applied 3 o'clock (FHE, BHE and parallel) and why. I did not learn about parallel English until reading it on this forum. Never knew how you applied english could give different results. That would be a great video to put out if there isn't already one.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I setup a LIVE stream with a caller who called in and after getting down on the shot aiming straight in, I had the caller tell me what english to put on the ball.

By elevating and lowering my bridge and pivoting the cue, I made every shot that wasn't very slow or VERY long without adjusting.

IOW, the vast majority of shots do not require additional adjustment.

YES, there are situations that require adjustment, but the vast majority of shots can easily be made using center ball aiming and BHE.
..

I'd say that moving your bridge around is an adjustment. If the shots are easy, maybe they'll go in. I doubt you could repeat your experiment successfully with a spot shot.

 

[Matt]

I agree with this but I think a player who works on their misses without the background knowledge will eventually discover where to point the cue stick to make the shot and then the shot will feel right to them for the required line up.

I like to think that knowledge shortens the process of choosing the right shot. However, learning through experimentation may have the advantage in terms of ingraining the shot into the subconscious.

 

[Jaden]

I"m NOT moving my bridge around.

I'd say that moving your bridge around is an adjustment. If the shots are easy, maybe they'll go in. I doubt you could repeat your experiment successfully with a spot shot.

Elevating your bridge is NOT moving your bridge around.

and it doesn't change the fact that for the majority of shots you come across, you can just aim center ball and leave your bridge in the same relative position.

It also helps to mark the pivot point on your cue so you are sure that you are bridging in the right place.

I put a dot on my shaft to reference the pivot point.

Actually, it's not the exact pivot point but rather a starting reference point for me based on my preshot routine because I actually hold the cue in line about a quarter ball in and above the center of the CB and then pull back once I'm in line and practice stroke at center ball and then practice stroke with the english that I"m applying.

The only possible adjustment that is being made even subconsciously would be a leaning of up to 1 or 2 mm in one direction or the other of the pivot point. I will acknowledge that possibility but even still there is no better way to adjust for using side spin, especially extreme side spin than BHE.

I recently impressed Corey Deuel demonstrating BHE to him.

Jaden

 

[Pidge]

Be nice once technology catches up. Meaning I watched Darren Appletons drill video. He would tell everyone what English he was playing using the clock method. What always gets me when someone says I used 3 o'clock but not how they applied 3 o'clock (FHE, BHE and parallel) and why. I did not learn about parallel English until reading it on this forum. Never knew how you applied english could give different results. That would be a great video to put out if there isn't already one.

I remember watching a video by Tor Lowry. He mentions that when applying English you line up centre ball and during the process of stroking the CB you move the back of the cue to contact what ever part of the CB you need. No mention of pivot points. Its surprisingly effective even when I don't bridge on my cues pivot point. I can't explain why, but it is. Its not for me though. I find it very difficult to judge how much English I'm applying. I'd much rather set up with the amount of English I need and cue straight. But you never know, you might have better luck with it.

 

[naji]

If you choose a slightly different bridge length -- in this case longer -- you will be able to cancel the combination of squirt and throw. That is, if you bridge back farther than the "real" pivot point and happen to hit with left english, you will land a little to the right of center on the object ball but the left english will bring the shot back to straight. Similarly if you hit with right english the cue ball will land on the left of the object ball (a little) and the right english will throw the shot back to straight.

The correct bridge length to get this happy cancellation for a particular shot will depend on the speed of the shot, amount of draw/follow and the distance to the object ball since swerve is also involved.

Only if CB arrives at OB with CB at stun condition, other wise will not throw the ob as much if any, and only Squirt in effect no swerve. Slow follow throw will have squirt and swerve depending on distance swerve might take over.

 

[Matt]

I recently impressed Corey Deuel demonstrating BHE to him.

I'm a bit disappointed that Corey didn't know about BHE. Even if he doesn't use it, I would've thought that he would at least know about it given how carefully he's tinkered with other parts of the game. Maybe he just learned to shoot without it and never had a need to go study up on how to make balls with english...

...there is no better way to adjust for using side spin, especially extreme side spin than BHE.

So are we calling BHE and adjustment or not? Any way that consistently arrives at the correct combination of tip placement, angle, and speed to execute the shot as intended is just as good as the next. I find that consciously pivoting once I'm down on a ball is less effective for me than just getting down on the shot in the correct alignment to begin with based on my intuition and understanding of squirt, throw, swerve, etc. I also prefer to play with the Mezz "LD" shaft, so I don't have a pivot point near a normal bridge length on my cue.

 

[naji]

I was just reading the thread on bridge length and the pivot point was mentioned a couple of times. I realize I may get hammered for not knowing, (grin), but how do I find the PP? Be gentle....

Just remember, you will not be able to put a lot of english using PP. When you strike CB with a cue, you impart translation force (moves cue forward), and rotational force (spins) CB. PP it seems to use a lot of the cue force toward translation energy, and some for rotational, parallel english, seem to impart high rotational energy much higher than PP english, Efren and many top players use parallel english for high english display of CB power! Of course no english is best if you can help it.


My advise! buy OB2 (LD) and learn to play parallel english or close to parallel, as well pivot at all bridge lengths (learn the cue at every possible way) 4000 shots possibilities.

 

[Jaden]

BHE does NOT require getting down on the shot first and then pivoting.

I'm a bit disappointed that Corey didn't know about BHE. Even if he doesn't use it, I would've thought that he would at least know about it given how carefully he's tinkered with other parts of the game. Maybe he just learned to shoot without it and never had a need to go study up on how to make balls with english...

So are we calling BHE and adjustment or not? Any way that consistently arrives at the correct combination of tip placement, angle, and speed to execute the shot as intended is just as good as the next. I find that consciously pivoting once I'm down on a ball is less effective for me than just getting down on the shot in the correct alignment to begin with based on my intuition and understanding of squirt, throw, swerve, etc. I also prefer to play with the Mezz "LD" shaft, so I don't have a pivot point near a normal bridge length on my cue.

BHE is about using the discovered and known pivot point of the shaft to adjust for side spin while using the natural aim line.

It doesn't require that you get down on the shot first.

Here is one example of how to use BHE without getting down on the shot and then pivoting.

I call it bridge lining.

If you look at the shot and determine the aimline from center ball what you would do is grab the cue from the pivot point and as you step into the shot with the english you want to apply, ensure that your bridge hand is on that line. IOW the point of the shaft that is the pivot point is placed in line with a center ball shot AS you step into the shot with the tip of the cue pointing at the place on the CB that you wish to strike.

This would allow you to use BHE without pivoting after being down on the shot.

Jaden

 

[Jaden]

Actually the reason I brought it up to him.

I'm a bit disappointed that Corey didn't know about BHE. Even if he doesn't use it, I would've thought that he would at least know about it given how carefully he's tinkered with other parts of the game. Maybe he just learned to shoot without it and never had a need to go study up on how to make balls with english...

So are we calling BHE and adjustment or not? Any way that consistently arrives at the correct combination of tip placement, angle, and speed to execute the shot as intended is just as good as the next. I find that consciously pivoting once I'm down on a ball is less effective for me than just getting down on the shot in the correct alignment to begin with based on my intuition and understanding of squirt, throw, swerve, etc. I also prefer to play with the Mezz "LD" shaft, so I don't have a pivot point near a normal bridge length on my cue.

The reason I brought it up to him was because of his comments along with John Schmidt's during the pre TAR interview about aiming systems.

It was more a response to John's referring to aiming systems not seeming to be able to work because of a lack of ability to adjust for deflection and the fact that aiming systems will typically only get you a no english starting point which seemed ineffective to him.

John was busy so I didn't get a chance to explain and demonstrate it to him.

Jaden