Sorry---more about pivot points.

[Jodacus]

I find the idea of pivot points fascinating. Someone
suggested a relationship between LD shafts and
a front hand pivot. What would that relationship be?
Is there really a difference between pivoting the
front hand vs the rear hand?

I also see the idea that speed somehow affects the
pivot point. My understanding was that the pivot
point is one exact place and only works (perfectly)
for one exact speed. Is this correct?

So if I wanted to shoot a softer shot can I move the
pivot point (back?) and have it work perfectly or acceptably?

Thanks to all for more discussion.

Joe

 

[Jaden]

The only relationship...

I find the idea of pivot points fascinating. Someone
suggested a relationship between LD shafts and
a front hand pivot. What would that relationship be?
Is there really a difference between pivoting the
front hand vs the rear hand?

I also see the idea that speed somehow affects the
pivot point. My understanding was that the pivot
point is one exact place and only works (perfectly)
for one exact speed. Is this correct?

So if I wanted to shoot a softer shot can I move the
pivot point (back?) and have it work perfectly or acceptably?

Thanks to all for more discussion.

Joe

The pivot point on LD shaft technology is farther back than is traditionally used for a bridge.

This means that when applying side spin, you have to shift the bridge hand (front hand) to make sure you are in proper alignment for applying the side spin when using low deflection tech.


Actually, it applies to anytime you are applying side spin that starts with a natural no side spin aimline where you're NOT lined up with your bridge at the pivot point, or when you have to adjust from that initial aimline for swerve etc... because of having to hit too soft or shooting too far away etc..

Basically, you are using FHE any time you can't lock in your bridge hand and keep it there from the initial aimline.

You can still use BHE with a LD shaft (I do) but you have to bridge farther back on the cue than is typically used or taught as being ideal.

I had posted a thread that describes how to use BHE with a LD shaft and then still adjust your bridge to any position that you would like. Let me see if I can find and link to that thread for you really quick...


Here you go.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=362204&highlight=deflection

Jaden

 

[naji]

The pivot point on LD shaft technology is farther back than is traditionally used for a bridge.

This means that when applying side spin, you have to shift the bridge hand (front hand) to make sure you are in proper alignment for applying the side spin when using low deflection tech.


Actually, it applies to anytime you are applying side spin that starts with a natural no side spin aimline where you're NOT lined up with your bridge at the pivot point, or when you have to adjust from that initial aimline for swerve etc... because of having to hit too soft or shooting too far away etc..

Basically, you are using FHE any time you can't lock in your bridge hand and keep it there from the initial aimline.

You can still use BHE with a LD shaft (I do) but you have to bridge farther back on the cue than is typically used or taught as being ideal.

I had posted a thread that describes how to use BHE with a LD shaft and then still adjust your bridge to any position that you would like. Let me see if I can find and link to that thread for you really quick...


Here you go.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=362204&highlight=deflection

Jaden

Jaden, would you say the more pivot angle you have (your butt hand move further away from no english aim line) the shorter the bridge; i agree on standard light pivot angle your bridge will be longer on any cue provided we are putting extreme english on all cases.
What do you think? thanks.

 

[Johnnyt]

I don't know how a lot of players ran/run a lot of balls and racks W/O knowing anything about pivot points and a few other things that have been talked about on here lately. If more of the new players to the game and a few not so new would pay a lot more attention to the basics, like stance, line of aim, a good PSR, and a repeatable straight stroke, they would be a lot better off. JMO. Johnnyt

 

[Jodacus]

Thanks Jaden,

I have not read completely through your linked thread
but I will. If you would please tell me what your thoughts
are on my other questions. I have experimented with BHE,
I think I will pursue it further.


I hope others will respond as well.

Thanks

 

[Jaden]

I would say that it's not specific in that regard...

Jaden, would you say the more pivot angle you have (your butt hand move further away from no english aim line) the shorter the bridge; i agree on standard light pivot angle your bridge will be longer on any cue provided we are putting extreme english on all cases.
What do you think? thanks.

If I understand what you're asking I would say that it isn't relative to the amount of English.

The closer your bridge is to the ball, the less likely stroke flaws are to affect the outcome of the shot. wrist pulling, swiping, etc... can throw off a shot and the farther your bridge is from the shot, the more those flaws are likely to affect the outcome.

The biggest advantage of low deflection technology is that they allow for less variance. What I mean by that is that the line of the cue is closer to the original aimline for any type of side spin you use because the pivot point is further back.

People are under the false assumption that LD tech makes it easier to aim. It doesn't.

It makes variance in aimline less. This makes it appear that you aren't adjusting at all, but it really just means that the change shift in angle from the original aimline is less.

This will result in more consistency in the long run, but for some people it is difficult to adjust to. Feel players and users of BHE (consciously or subconsciously) will have the most difficulty in adjusting to LD tech and often won't see the benefit.

The understanding of PPA (pivot point aiming) or at least knowledge of it, will make it easier for these players to adjust.

Feel players could also have difficulty adjusting but would probably eventually adjust.

Jaden

 

[Jaden]

Absolutely...

I don't know how a lot of players ran/run a lot of balls and racks W/O knowing anything about pivot points and a few other things that have been talked about on here lately. If more of the new players to the game and a few not so new would pay a lot more attention to the basics, like stance, line of aim, a good PSR, and a repeatable straight stroke, they would be a lot better off. JMO. Johnnyt

You are unequivocally correct here. Those are the fundamental things that people should be focused on first and foremost and can go a LONG way towards bringing someone to their highest level.

When I teach people, I do it in stages. beginners and intermediate players should not be working on sidespin at ALL IMO.

If you don't have the things you mentioned down and working well you shouldn't be trying to use sidespin.

Once you do start using sidespin, you should understand PP and IMO you should use some form of PPA.

Do you have to in order to perform at a high level??? No, some world champions don't have a clue what they did in order to aim and adjust for anything (although there is still high levels of conscious knowledge that they have, NO ONE just plays pool at a top level naturally, it just doesn't happen).

Jaden

 

[Johnnyt]

You are unequivocally correct here. Those are the fundamental things that people should be focused on first and foremost and can go a LONG way towards bringing someone to their highest level.

When I teach people, I do it in stages. beginners and intermediate players should not be working on sidespin at ALL IMO.

If you don't have the things you mentioned down and working well you shouldn't be trying to use sidespin.

Once you do start using sidespin, you should understand PP and IMO you should use some form of PPA.

Do you have to in order to perform at a high level??? No, some world champions don't have a clue what they did in order to aim and adjust for anything (although there is still high levels of conscious knowledge that they have, NO ONE just plays pool at a top level naturally, it just doesn't happen).

Jaden

I agree. Johnnyt

 

[Jaden]

There are points of contention on the answers to some of your questions.

I find the idea of pivot points fascinating. Someone
suggested a relationship between LD shafts and
a front hand pivot. What would that relationship be?
Is there really a difference between pivoting the
front hand vs the rear hand?Yes and No. If you end up on the right line for your cue to make the shot consistently, there is no difference in how you did it, be it FHE, BHE, Feel or whatever. Is there a difference though, absolutely. BHE is the easiest way IMO to find the correct aimline for sidespin.

The key word there is FIND....

It isn't necessarily the easiest way to execute the shot.

FHE allows you to start and maintain the most comfortable bridge position for you regardless as to where your cues PP is and it allows for many different body positions and allows for less arm movement on shot execution.

I also see the idea that speed somehow affects the
pivot point. My understanding was that the pivot
point is one exact place and only works (perfectly)
for one exact speed. Is this correct? I don't believe so, it definitely works for more than one speed. The thing that is certain is that it doesn't work well on slower shots, especially when distance is involved.

The slower the shot or the more distance that's involved (distance between CB and OB, not so much between OB and pocket), the more adjustment is necessary.

I showed via live demonstration that it works for many shots and speeds and I showed in that demonstration where it falls short as well and requires adjustment. I also did it on a table with 4" pockets so it's not like the table allowed a wide margin of error either.

I did so by setting up a video stream and having a viewer call in and after I got down on the shot, I had them tell me what english to put on the ball, whether it was inside draw, or outside follow, etc... and keeping my bridge locked in place (aside from lowering or elevating it for draw and follow) I shot the shot and made it with the type of english that the caller asked for.

So if I wanted to shoot a softer shot can I move the
pivot point (back?) and have it work perfectly or acceptably?

Let me think about this for a second, I've always adjust my aim slightly to the opposite side of the spin I was applying for softer shots so I need to consider the bridge adjustment for a second....

Yes, I believe that adjusting your bridge backwards for softer shots will help t adjust(a key thing to remember if you elect to do it this way though is that the farther back you bridge, the less offset there is, so there is a point of diminishing returns). I personally prefer to keep my bridge as consistently in the same place as possible though. I think a combination of FHE and BHE is best for adjusting for softer shots. It's similar to adjusting for masse shots.

I have a formula I use for that as well, which of course(just like all banks and kicks) requires some feel for speed.

Thanks to all for more discussion.

Joe

There is definitely NOT a consensus on the answers to some of your questions. I'll answer MY thoughts on your questions in blue within the quote of your post.

Jaden

 

[naji]

If I understand what you're asking I would say that it isn't relative to the amount of English.

The closer your bridge is to the ball, the less likely stroke flaws are to affect the outcome of the shot. wrist pulling, swiping, etc... can throw off a shot and the farther your bridge is from the shot, the more those flaws are likely to affect the outcome.

The biggest advantage of low deflection technology is that they allow for less variance. What I mean by that is that the line of the cue is closer to the original aimline for any type of side spin you use because the pivot point is further back.

People are under the false assumption that LD tech makes it easier to aim. It doesn't.

It makes variance in aimline less. This makes it appear that you aren't adjusting at all, but it really just means that the change shift in angle from the original aimline is less.

This will result in more consistency in the long run, but for some people it is difficult to adjust to. Feel players and users of BHE (consciously or subconsciously) will have the most difficulty in adjusting to LD tech and often won't see the benefit.

The understanding of PPA (pivot point aiming) or at least knowledge of it, will make it easier for these players to adjust.

Feel players could also have difficulty adjusting but would probably eventually adjust.

Jaden

Try one more time, If the tip say at extreme right hand english, i can have the butt either parallel no pivot, or pivot such a way that the butt is at middle (center line of cb), tip at extreme RH english, or butt left of the center line (extreme) pivot (still RH english) , in this extreme pivot the pivot point changes , and could be very short bridge , and vary as you change butt location?

 

[Jaden]

no it doesn't change...

Try one more time, If the tip say at extreme right hand english, i can have the butt either parallel no pivot, or pivot such a way that the butt is at middle (center line of cb), tip at extreme RH english, or butt left of the center line (extreme) pivot (still RH english) , in this extreme pivot the pivot point changes , and could be very short bridge , and vary as you change butt location?

no the amount of english does NOT change the pivot point. Distance between OB and CB has an effect and speed of shot has an effect, but within the range for speed and distance that PPA is usable, the amount of sidespin that you use does NOT change the PP.

Jaden

p.s. Let me add that if there is severe elevation to the cue (the shaft is not as close to parallel to the table as possible) this changes, but only minutely except with slower and long distance shots. On a barbox the distances almost never get enough for most shots to have much of an effect. (This aforementioned is why I recommend elevating and lowering your bridge for follow and draw).

 

[Jodacus]

Thanks Jaden

Jaden,

I can't thank you enough. I will spend some time
on this BHE stuff.

Also my daughter has expressed a desire to learn
to play. I am going to find the PP on her stick and
then get her set up so that the fundamentals will have
a head start. Grip, swing, etc. First and foremost will be
having fun.

Thanks again,
Joe

 

[Jaden]

No problem...

Jaden,

I can't thank you enough. I will spend some time
on this BHE stuff.

Also my daughter has expressed a desire to learn
to play. I am going to find the PP on her stick and
then get her set up so that the fundamentals will have
a head start. Grip, swing, etc. First and foremost will be
having fun.

Thanks again,
Joe

I keep meaning to follow through with my intention to develop billiardskungfu.com and offer live streamed instruction, but I keep getting side tracked with other projects.

I do like to give out the knowledge I have and help to promote billiards excellence whenever I can though.

I'd like to add, that when Efren first showed me BHE in 99' I ignored it and didn't even try it out for 3 years. I kept saying, there's NO WAY that it can just happen to adjust the right amount for deflection.

Then when I was practicing and talking with my buddy and great player Chip Klein he started talking about it and I said "Efren taught me that 3 years ago, but I never tried it".

After that day, I started playing with it and have used it almost incessantly for the last 12 years.

It wasn't until 2005 that I even learned about PP when chatting with Colin Colenso here in AZland...



Jaden

 

[naji]

no the amount of english does NOT change the pivot point. Distance between OB and CB has an effect and speed of shot has an effect, but within the range for speed and distance that PPA is usable, the amount of sidespin that you use does NOT change the PP.

Jaden

p.s. Let me add that if there is severe elevation to the cue (the shaft is not as close to parallel to the table as possible) this changes, but only minutely except with slower and long distance shots. On a barbox the distances almost never get enough for most shots to have much of an effect. (This aforementioned is why I recommend elevating and lowering your bridge for follow and draw).

I am not changing amount of english, all i am changing is butt hand location (left/right)(maintaining same elevation) basically varying pivot degree, maintaining same english on CB, and same tip distance from CB. with that i say pivot point changes.

 

[Jaden]

Something else is going on.

I am not changing amount of english, all i am changing is butt hand location (left/right)(maintaining same elevation) basically varying pivot degree, maintaining same english on CB, and same tip distance from CB. with that i say pivot point changes.

it shouldn't change. the amount of english used should not change where you pivot, I would think it's probably that the farther from center you get, the less you trust the new aimline and the more you try to subconsciously adjust.

Try this. Once you get on the final aimline, lock everything down, close your eyes and stroke straight through the ball concentrating on nothing but stroking straight through the ball and see if you make it then...If you do, then try locking your eyes onto the OB before you pull the trigger and concentrate on nothing but the OB as your stroke through the CB. See how that goes.

Jaden

 

[Jaden]

I misread...

I am not changing amount of english, all i am changing is butt hand location (left/right)(maintaining same elevation) basically varying pivot degree, maintaining same english on CB, and same tip distance from CB. with that i say pivot point changes.

Ok, I misread what you were describing. You are changing your aimline.

If you're pivoting more, but not changing the amount of sidespin you are placing on the ball or changing the point on the CB your cue is making contact with , you are adjusting your aimline. That won't work at all. The more you change your back hand, the more extreme the side spin should be on the CB.

If it's not, you aren't applying BHE correctly.

Jaden

 

[naji]

it shouldn't change. the amount of english used should not change where you pivot, I would think it's probably that the farther from center you get, the less you trust the new aimline and the more you try to subconsciously adjust.

Try this. Once you get on the final aimline, lock everything down, close your eyes and stroke straight through the ball concentrating on nothing but stroking straight through the ball and see if you make it then...If you do, then try locking your eyes onto the OB before you pull the trigger and concentrate on nothing but the OB as your stroke through the CB. See how that goes.

Jaden

Jaden, Pivot point changes , i change it all the time, depending on the bridge situation on the table when it does not allow std sweet bridge. In fact i use short bridge with more pivot (for accurate english, or draw shot) and i hit accurate shots, tried it with all follow, draw, stun, Pivot point does change, and needs to change or change your aim location and keep same pivot point, if desired.

In fact at extreme butt position (all the way to left of center of cb, you start reverse the squirt effect (negative squirt)!

 

[Jaden]

you'd have to show me what you are talking about...

Jaden, Pivot point changes , i change it all the time, depending on the bridge situation on the table when it does not allow std sweet bridge. In fact i use short bridge with more pivot (for accurate english, or draw shot) and i hit accurate shots, tried it with all follow, draw, stun, Pivot point does change, and needs to change or change your aim location and keep same pivot point, if desired.

In fact at extreme butt position (all the way to left of center of cb, you start reverse the squirt effect!

With LD tech you have a broader range of usable pivot point (because the offset is less), but other than that in my experience the pivot point doesn't change.

Jaden

 

[naji]

With LD tech you have a broader range of usable pivot point (because the offset is less), but other than that in my experience the pivot point doesn't change.

Jaden

WOW, that is GOLD. Thanks, you are right. Now Dr. Dave has to revise his stuff.

 

[naji]

WOW, that is GOLD. Thanks, you are right. Now Dr. Dave has to revise his stuff.

Actually Jaden, I owe you one, no wonder i had difficulty doing the one pocket bank shot, where OB one diamond from my pocket, about 2" from the long rail (english bank), my pivot angle was all over the place. Now one of pool mysteries is found. Thanks so much, and thank the original poster and all that contributed. At least for me!