Thanks to Jaden for clarifying Cue Pivot Point

N

naji

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I want to sincerely thank you for helping me understand the pivot stuff, and answering all my questions, and confirming some of my observations. You are great. If you come to VA / Arlington / Fairfax, lunch on me..
 
No problem...

Thanks for the appreciation. I'm glad if I helped to clarify Pivot Point Aiming for you and anyone else.

I also think that I like that I coined the term PPA...lol.

Jaden
 
id like to learn more about the pivot point and pivot point aiming
any link(s) to the posts that explain it??
 
I guess I'm to dumb.

I can understand finding a point on a shaft where
bridging can enable the shaft to make squirt and
throw reduce or maybe even cancel each other out,
but I don't grasp how this can still work if that bridge
point is moved along the shaft. If it still works without
concern for the bridge point (pivot point) why bother to
find the pivot point? Maybe I'm confusing large amounts
movement along the shaft versus very small adjustments
along the shaft. Or maybe I'm just not smart enough!

Joe
 
I'm about to provide some illustrations in a new thread..

Jodacus said:
I can understand finding a point on a shaft where
bridging can enable the shaft to make squirt and
throw reduce or maybe even cancel each other out,
but I don't grasp how this can still work if that bridge
point is moved along the shaft. If it still works without
concern for the bridge point (pivot point) why bother to
find the pivot point? Maybe I'm confusing large amounts
movement along the shaft versus very small adjustments
along the shaft. Or maybe I'm just not smart enough!

Joe
Click to expand...

I'm working on providing some illustrations. It's all about ensuring that the pivot point is in line with the original no side spin aimline.

Where you bridge only matters when using BHE, it's entirely about the placement of the pivot point when bridging anywhere else on the shaft.

Jaden
 
Jodacus said:
I can understand finding a point on a shaft where
bridging can enable the shaft to make squirt and
throw reduce or maybe even cancel each other out,
but I don't grasp how this can still work if that bridge
point is moved along the shaft. If it still works without
concern for the bridge point (pivot point) why bother to
find the pivot point? Maybe I'm confusing large amounts
movement along the shaft versus very small adjustments
along the shaft. Or maybe I'm just not smart enough!
Click to expand...
With basic BHE, the bridge is placed at the natural pivot length of the shaft. This will totally cancel squirt (CB deflection) for fast-speed and/or short-distance shots. For longer or slower shots, swerve becomes a factor. One approach with long, slow shots is to use FHE (with the same bridge length). For shots in between, one can use a combination of BHE and FHE, or adjust the bridge length (not generally recommended), or just aim by feel or intuition.

Another approach is to vary cue elevation with shot speed and distance so the swerve exactly cancels squirt. In that case, BHE and FHE aim adjustments are not required. This sounds nice, but it is very difficult to judge the amount of cue elevation needed from one shot to the next, and from one set of conditions to the next.

Throw is another matter. When using BHE and/or FHE, it is generally recommended that the center-ball aim be adjusted for throw separately. For many shots, no throw compensation is required. However, with stun shots (especially slower stun shots close to a 1/2-ball hit) and with small-cut-angle shots with sidespin, throw (CIT or SIT) can be significant, and aim must be adjusted.

I hope that helps,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Here are some useful online resources dealing with this topic:
cue natural pivot length (including procedure and video demonstration showing how to find it on your cue)
back-hand (BHE) and front-hand english (FHE)
aim compensation for squirt, swerve, and throw

Enjoy,
Dave
Click to expand...

Hi Dr. Dave,
I am using OB2 shaft, LD, and i am able to vary my pivot point by varying the amount of butt hand pivot (left / right) the shorter the bridge the larger the butt hand angle, hence short pivot. As Jaden and I seem to agree. Did not try it myself with other cues!

The other thing, you do not describe how much the butt hand angle (from cb center line) in your website?
 
Jaden,

So manage the pivot point. FHE or BHE or any
combination can be used as long as the PP is
correct. With high or low cue ball hits and cue
elevation to make other adjustments? Sound right?

Joe
 
Yepperly...

Jodacus said:
Jaden,

So manage the pivot point. FHE or BHE or any
combination can be used as long as the PP is
correct. With high or low cue ball hits and cue
elevation to make other adjustments? Sound right?

Joe
Click to expand...

Yep sounds like you got it. It don't matter how you get it there, having the cue's PP on the original aim line gives you the best starting point and under most conditions with as level and straight a stroke as possible will ensure your best chances for success in using spin, especially extreme spin.

Jaden
 
Many thanks

Jaden,

Thanks again for your patience and explanations.
I like to learn so I will work on this until I can use
it successfully.

If I ever have the opportunity dinner and a beer is
on me.

Joe
 
naji said:
Hi Dr. Dave,
I am using OB2 shaft, LD, and i am able to vary my pivot point by varying the amount of butt hand pivot (left / right) the shorter the bridge the larger the butt hand angle, hence short pivot. As Jaden and I seem to agree. Did not try it myself with other cues!

The other thing, you do not describe how much the butt hand angle (from cb center line) in your website?
Click to expand...
With standard BHE, with the bridge at the pivot point, the back hand moves according to how much English you apply. You shouldn't need to think about the back hand. Just pivot until the tip is where you want.

Regards
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
With standard BHE, with the bridge at the pivot point, the back hand moves according to how much English you apply. You shouldn't need to think about the back hand. Just pivot until the tip is where you want.

Regards
Dave
Click to expand...


Thanks Dr. Which point though ! i could have max english with butt hand parallel to center of CB to as extreme as crossing the center line? IMO, this needs to be mentioned, to ensure that players can change pivot point, hence bridge length by changing butt hand location, still same intended english in all cases.

We have to think about it for pool stance, because it is a point in the air, not like snooker guided by chest and chin!
 
I must admit, I was really surprised to see the difference in the pivot points , of both my playing cues and my Break cue. It has made a big difference in my breaks already, and I have only experimented with it a short time. It was easy to figure out, after watching Dr. Dave's video. Thanks, Jaden and Dr. Dave and the rest of you guys for the info, it is priceless. Have any of you marked the shaft of your playing cues, if so has it been beneficial to your game.
 
With my LD shafts the pivot point is so far back that I switched to air pivots with the shaft crossing the centerball aim line at the natural pivot point... Until then I was very cramped on my stance as I was upright and getting down on the shot straight and staying straight was harder.... I honestly think I might play better with a shaft with a natural 8 inch pivot but I have not had the chance to test my theory because table time has been limited.....

Good explanation for folks just starting to play with this Jaden... You need to make the Open so Naji can buy you a beer... I'll buy the 2nd round....

Chris
 
The Renfro said:
With my LD shafts the pivot point is so far back that I switched to air pivots with the shaft crossing the centerball aim line at the natural pivot point... Until then I was very cramped on my stance as I was upright and getting down on the shot straight and staying straight was harder.... I honestly think I might play better with a shaft with a natural 8 inch pivot but I have not had the chance to test my theory because table time has been limited.....

Good explanation for folks just starting to play with this Jaden... You need to make the Open so Naji can buy you a beer... I'll buy the 2nd round....

Chris
Click to expand...

Worth much more than a beer ! if he comes to Fairfax VA, dinner on me too, you included Renfro, very valuable info, which led to much more valuable findings.
 
With the shaft pivot point being so critical, hitting the head ball breaking perfectly, isn't it just as critical with your playing cue ?
 
irock said:
With the shaft pivot point being so critical, hitting the head ball breaking perfectly, isn't it just as critical with your playing cue ?
Click to expand...
In my opinion, having the pivot point on your break cue at your natural bridge length is far more beneficial than it is on your playing cue. When you are breaking, swerve is nearly nonexistent, and throw doesn't apply when hitting straight into a ball with no english, so having unintentional squirt cancelled out automatically by the cue will allow you to contact the object ball squarely more consistently even if your stroke is inconsistent.

For your playing cue, I think that since the cancellation effect only applies to a certain class of shots (short and/or fast, or when throw and swerve cancel as well), the benefit is not as great, so it may be more beneficial to play with a LD shaft and have less squirt overall. In that case, the pivot point will be too far back to bridge at, but you can still use it as a reference point as Jaden describes to cancel squirt.
 
I agree...

Matt said:
In my opinion, having the pivot point on your break cue at your natural bridge length is far more beneficial than it is on your playing cue. When you are breaking, swerve is nearly nonexistent, and throw doesn't apply when hitting straight into a ball with no english, so having unintentional squirt cancelled out automatically by the cue will allow you to contact the object ball squarely more consistently even if your stroke is inconsistent.

For your playing cue, I think that since the cancellation effect only applies to a certain class of shots (short and/or fast, or when throw and swerve cancel as well), the benefit is not as great, so it may be more beneficial to play with a LD shaft and have less squirt overall. In that case, the pivot point will be too far back to bridge at, but you can still use it as a reference point as Jaden describes to cancel squirt.
Click to expand...

I use a standard deflection shaft on my break cue and an LD shaft on my playing cue.

Since the stroke most people use for breaking is significantly different than their playing stroke and because preshot routines can differ between the break shot and a normal shot, there is little chance of training muscle memory wrong by using different types of shafts on the two cues.

Jaden
 
Matt said:
In my opinion, having the pivot point on your break cue at your natural bridge length is far more beneficial than it is on your playing cue. When you are breaking, swerve is nearly nonexistent, and throw doesn't apply when hitting straight into a ball with no english, so having unintentional squirt cancelled out automatically by the cue will allow you to contact the object ball squarely more consistently even if your stroke is inconsistent.

For your playing cue, I think that since the cancellation effect only applies to a certain class of shots (short and/or fast, or when throw and swerve cancel as well), the benefit is not as great, so it may be more beneficial to play with a LD shaft and have less squirt overall. In that case, the pivot point will be too far back to bridge at, but you can still use it as a reference point as Jaden describes to cancel squirt.
Click to expand...



Matt, The problem is the natural pivot point requires the butt to be angled (left or right of cb center) in such a way to be effective, a player could mistakenly shift the butt hand left or right more than needed which will certainly changes the "natural pivot" point location, especially if his but hand position has to move all the way back due to CB at center of table! or say you have balls in the way, or feel very good with shorter bridge than long one!
 
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