Thanks to Jaden for clarifying Cue Pivot Point

[dr_dave]

Matt, The problem is the natural pivot point requires the butt to be angled (left or right of cb center) in such a way to be effective, a player could mistakenly shift the butt hand left or right more than needed which will certainly changes the "natural pivot" point location, especially if his but hand position has to move all the way back due to CB at center of table! or say you have balls in the way, or feel very good with shorter bridge than long one!

Naji,

You must not fully understand the back-hand pivot.

The pivot point is fixed by where the bridge is placed on the table.

The back hand moves the amount necessary to pivot the cue to apply the desired amount of english.

The pivot point (the bridge) does not move during the back-hand pivot. It is stationary.

FYI, illustrations can be found in the following article:
"Squirt - Part IV: BHE, FHE, and pivot-length calibration" (BD, November, 2007)

and demonstrations can be found in the following video:
NV B.71 - Cue natural pivot length and back-hand english (BHE), from VEPS II

I hope that helps,
Dave

 

[Matt]

Naji,

You must not fully understand the back-hand pivot.

The pivot point is fixed by where the bridge is placed on the table.

The back hand moves the amount necessary to pivot the cue to apply the desired amount of english.

The pivot point (the bridge) does not move during the back-hand pivot. It is stationary.

FYI, illustrations can be found in the following article:
"Squirt - Part IV: BHE, FHE, and pivot-length calibration" (BD, November, 2007)

and demonstrations can be found in the following video:
NV B.71 - Cue natural pivot length and back-hand english (BHE), from VEPS II

I hope that helps,
Dave

What he said.
Thanks, Doc!

 

[dr_dave]

What he said.
Thanks, Doc!

You're welcome.

I aim to squerve,
Dave

 

[naji]

Naji,

You must not fully understand the back-hand pivot.

The pivot point is fixed by where the bridge is placed on the table.

The back hand moves the amount necessary to pivot the cue to apply the desired amount of english.

The pivot point (the bridge) does not move during the back-hand pivot. It is stationary.

FYI, illustrations can be found in the following article:
"Squirt - Part IV: BHE, FHE, and pivot-length calibration" (BD, November, 2007)

and demonstrations can be found in the following video:
NV B.71 - Cue natural pivot length and back-hand english (BHE), from VEPS II

I hope that helps,
Dave

Dr. I know, say the CB at the rack spot and you about to shoot it from center of table to the center of the kitchen upper rail

i start with tip at center, i hit, CB go up and down to the tip good. Now say i put one tip of RH english , same i start at center and back hand pivot, i could move my back hand left to create the pivot, but in the process i could over move my back hand to more than what i need, or less than what i need and end up changing the known pivot of the cue either not compensating or over compensating, i am not moving my bridge. Ok you gonaa say by feel and have to practice!
Now say i like short bridge, i can create a pivot point that suites me by pivoting more! and not necessarily bridge close to the joint in some cues..

 

[Matt]

Dr. I know, say the CB at the rack spot and you about to shoot it from center of table to the center of the kitchen upper rail

i start with tip at center, i hit, CB go up and down to the tip good. Now say i put one tip of RH english , same i start at center and back hand pivot, i could move my back hand left to create the pivot, but in the process i could over move my back hand to more than what i need, or less than what i need and end up changing the known pivot of the cue either not compensating or over compensating, i am not moving my bridge. Ok you gonaa say by feel and have to practice!
Now say i like short bridge, i can create a pivot point that suites me by pivoting more! and not necessarily bridge close to the joint in some cues..

Taking your example of shooting from the center of the table to the center of the rail, there is one particular point on your cue where you can bridge and hit the point in the center of the rail no matter how much you move your back hand back and forth as long as you hit the ball hard enough and level enough (so swerve doesn't take effect). That is the natural pivot point. There is no feel involved.

 

[naji]

Taking your example of shooting from the center of the table to the center of the rail, there is one particular point on your cue where you can bridge and hit the point in the center of the rail no matter how much you move your back hand back and forth as long as you hit the ball hard enough and level enough (so swerve doesn't take effect). That is the natural pivot point. There is no feel involved.

I hear you if the bridge is actually fastened by a bolt and nut to the bridge hand, but the actual bridge, could be squeezed few millimeters to left or right without moving my bridge fingers from the table. Open bridge you are probably correct, though i can shift fingers few mm..

So maybe those mm, changes the pivot point that was obtained, especially for those players not aware that it does make a difference.

I and maybe many players have hill of a time bridging near the joint, this could be a great way to fix it, instead of judging offset aim! is for me!

 

[Matt]

I hear you if the bridge is actually fastened by a bolt and nut to the bridge hand, but the actual bridge, could be squeezed few millimeters to left or right without moving my bridge fingers from the table. Open bridge you are probably correct, though i can shift fingers few mm..

So maybe those mm, changes the pivot point that was obtained, especially for those players not aware that it does make a difference.

I and maybe many players have hill of a time bridging near the joint, this could be a great way to fix it, instead of judging offset aim! is for me!

Are you saying that the point that the cue actually pivots about may be different than the point where you think it is pivoting on your bridge, or are you saying that when you move your back hand the cue doesn't actually pivot about a single point? Both are valid comments.

In the first case (not knowing where the cue actually pivots), it makes it that much more important to determine where to place your bridge to get the squirt cancellation effect through experimentation. That way, you will have your bridge is the correct position so that the cue actually pivots at the right spot.

In the second case (not actually pivoting around a fixed point), it's probably still good enough to make the ball if you are at least trying to maintain a fixed bridge, especially if the object ball is close and the english applied is less.

 

[dr_dave]

Are you saying that the point that the cue actually pivots about may be different than the point where you think it is pivoting on your bridge, or are you saying that when you move your back hand the cue doesn't actually pivot about a single point? Both are valid comments.

In the first case (not knowing where the cue actually pivots), it makes it that much more important to determine where to place your bridge to get the squirt cancellation effect through experimentation. That way, you will have your bridge is the correct position so that the cue actually pivots at the right spot.

In the second case (not actually pivoting around a fixed point), it's probably still good enough to make the ball if you are at least trying to maintain a fixed bridge, especially if the object ball is close and the english applied is less.

Here's an example from the CTE evaluation page showing how the bridge can be shifted or deformed during a "pivot" if one is not careful (or if one wishes to change the effective pivot length). This approach is certainly not recommended with standard BHE.

Regards,
Dave

 

[irock]

Dr. am I right in assuming, you can relocate your pivot hand anywhere on the cue, but in reality you can't change the natural pivot point of the cue, so for it to be the most effective, you bridge there, or once you are lined up from that point you can move your bridge, as Jaden or someone else posted.

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. am I right in assuming, you can relocate your pivot hand anywhere on the cue

Yes.

but in reality you can't change the natural pivot point of the cue

Yes.

so for it to be the most effective, you bridge there

Only for fast-speed and/or short-distance shots, where swerve is not a factor (and assuming you have already compensated for throw where appropriate).

For every shot, there is actually a unique pivot length that will automatically compensate for the combined effects of squirt, swerve, and throw. However, if you already have enough feel and intuition to judge this already, you wouldn't need BHE or FHE. You would just aim the shot without any pivot, placing your cue along the required line to begin with.

Again, I think the best approach when using BHE is to always bridge at the natural pivot length of your cue (and find a cue with a natural pivot length well matched to your bridge length, especially with your break cue). Then, you can use straight BHE for fast-speed and/or short distance english shots. You can use FHE for slow and/or long-distance shots. And you can use a combination of BHE and FHE for all shots in between (to compensate for the combined effects of squirt and swerve). For the shots where throw is significant (for example, stun shots, slow shots close to a 1/2-ball hit, sidespin shots with small cut angles), it is easiest to compensate for throw separately when first determining the desired center-ball line of aim.

Regards,
Dave

 

[naji]

Here's an example from the CTE evaluation page showing how the bridge can be shifted or deformed during a "pivot" if one is not careful (or if one wishes to change the effective pivot length). This approach is certainly not recommended with standard BHE.

Regards,
Dave

Thanks much DR. Dave' and Matt good stuff. I deform my bridge on hard English shots using short bridge to ensure tip contact. Or when I put sever left or right hand English with power shots with short bridge.