phenolic resin tips popping off

[cammel8]

Make sure that both surfaces are clean and flat. If you fit the 2 together, they should not "rock" any at all. I would guess that most tips that come off are because something is not flat.

After that, use LocTite Professional.

Remember, CA's are meant to glue glass to glass, so the cleaner and flatter the better.


Royce

I am fairly certain it isn't because it isn't flat but I will double check that. I know it doesn't rock, but I will check it with the edge of a razor blade to make sure next time.

As far as the professional goes do they make a professional gel or are you talking about the liquid stuff?

So normally I score the bottom a little so the glue has a little better adhesion. Are you saying I should not do that and just face it off and then glue together or should I still rough it up a bit.

 

[cammel8]

Just curious, but is the ferrule material g10 or is the tip?

Both are tips. the ferule material is usually some sort of white material. depends on the stick. And I know it's not the material because I have had break cues come in where the tip was attached already but the customer wanted a different tip. So I know the ferule was fine.

 

[cammel8]

Got this tip from Mr. Varney. At least I think his name was Varney. Nice gentleman, and I hope I haven't butchered his name too badly. He puts a stem on the tip that sits inside a same size hole in your ferrule. If memory serves, I left 1/4 inch by 1/4 inch stem on phenolic. I've only had to do it once. I have this guy that breaks real hard. It's impressive when he hits em square, but he has his share of mis- hits as well. That's when he would pop em off. I've never had to do this for anyone else. He still hits em hard, but Mr. Varney's install tip cured his issue. Been on for about almost 2 years now. I use Loctite gel also. Hope this helps.
Mikey

Ok so if I'm understanding what your saying correctly, you basically do this to the tip:

|____........._____|
.........|........|.........

(ignore the periods, I had to put them in for spacing)

then drill down into the ferule to seat it in, is that correct?

I'm guessing if you are doing that you are starting with a tip that is about a half inch thick or so, then taking a quarter inch at the base for your stem, and the other quarter inch is the actual tip.

if that's not what your are saying could you please clarify so I can understand better.

Although if that is not what you are saying that actually isn't a bad idea either.

 

[iusedtoberich]

This has been a recurring issue for as long as phenolic tips have been around. It's been discussed many times here over the years. When I was doing repairs I only did phenolic 1 piece ferrules for customers who wanted phenolic break tips. Not the separate tips on top of a standard ferrule.

You might be able to experiment more and find a solution that works for you. But why bother, IMO. Everytime a tip falls off it's your fault, in the eyes of the customer. Why expose yourself to that perception if there is a tried and trued method of the one piece phenolic tip/ferrule combo.

Those are my two cents

 

[cammel8]

Great answer! That's it!

Personally I had the problem also, and I'm sure it was not the flatness of the ferrule or tip. At same tip and ferrule material the tip was popping off after a while when using a cyan acrylate super glue. Sometime I switched to an epoxy glue and the tip never ever was popping off again. The epoxy glue that I use seems to be a bit more flexible than the cyan acrylate glue, and that what "Hits 'em Hard" described with the different compression rates of tip and ferrule is obviously beeing compensated by the slightly more flexible epoxy glue.

Which glue did you switch to?

 

[cammel8]

This has been a recurring issue for as long as phenolic tips have been around. It's been discussed many times here over the years. When I was doing repairs I only did phenolic 1 piece ferrules for customers who wanted phenolic break tips. Not the separate tips on top of a standard ferrule.

You might be able to experiment more and find a solution that works for you. But why bother, IMO. Everytime a tip falls off it's your fault, in the eyes of the customer. Why expose yourself to that perception if there is a tried and trued method of the one piece phenolic tip/ferrule combo.

Those are my two cents

Because there are times when you either can't change the ferule or the customer does not want you to change the ferule.

I have only run into this a couple times but once is enough for me to want to learn to do it right.

Right now I have a predator bk2 shaft where the customer wants just a tip put on. (an ice breaker to be specific) and he wants the original ferule intact. that being the case, I can't just do a one piece. and their is a guy that does repairs about a half hour from me and I am tired of losing business to him because his tips aren't falling off. So if his aren't falling off, there has to be some way for mine to also not fall of. hence me asking here.

90 percent of the break and jump cues that come from factory, the tips stay on for the life of the cue. So they must be doing something I'm not. I want to learn what they are doing so I can do it. Simple as that.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Im using a carbide (i believe) bit on my lathe.

I'm facing the tip by putting it in the lathe and facing it with the bit I use to face the ferule

Yes I have checked to make sure they are flat.

Yes I score the back.

Unless you're cutting your phenolic tip from a rod stock, it should never be faced in the lathe. Use the bed of your lathe, some 180-220 grit sandpaper to scuff and 'flatten' the back of the tip.

Ok so if I'm understanding what your saying correctly, you basically do this to the tip:

|____........._____|
.........|........|.........

(ignore the periods, I had to put them in for spacing)

then drill down into the ferule to seat it in, is that correct?

I'm guessing if you are doing that you are starting with a tip that is about a half inch thick or so, then taking a quarter inch at the base for your stem, and the other quarter inch is the actual tip.

if that's not what your are saying could you please clarify so I can understand better.

Although if that is not what you are saying that actually isn't a bad idea either.

It was more than that. The top ~1/4" of the ferrule, which would constitute a normal capped ferrule, was drilled and tapped. The tenon on the back side of the tip was threaded. The tipped screwed securely into the ferrule. No chance for the tip to pop off then.

Which glue did you switch to?

It's not the switching glue, it's the ferrule. Thermoform plastics when used as break ferrules are inherently weak/soft. So when you know that, unless special precautions are taken, the tip, even a normal playing tip, can come flying off under a hard stroke. But this is more or less when the ferrule is just sleeved over and not capped.

Both are tips. the ferule material is usually some sort of white material. depends on the stick. And I know it's not the material because I have had break cues come in where the tip was attached already but the customer wanted a different tip. So I know the ferule was fine.

Because there are times when you either can't change the ferule or the customer does not want you to change the ferule.

I have only run into this a couple times but once is enough for me to want to learn to do it right.

Right now I have a predator bk2 shaft where the customer wants just a tip put on. (an ice breaker to be specific) and he wants the original ferule intact. that being the case, I can't just do a one piece. and their is a guy that does repairs about a half hour from me and I am tired of losing business to him because his tips aren't falling off. So if his aren't falling off, there has to be some way for mine to also not fall of. hence me asking here.

90 percent of the break and jump cues that come from factory, the tips stay on for the life of the cue. So they must be doing something I'm not. I want to learn what they are doing so I can do it. Simple as that.

First off, 90% of the break cues from the factory use lesser grade phenolics/procedures. I just replaced a one piece tip/ferrule on a cue because the top literally collapsed inward. Yes there was a gap between the end of the tenon and the tip area. And again, like I said on the first page, if the ferrule material wasn't designed for breaking in mind, it's a weak material to begin with and nothing you do can help keep a tip that is harder than the ferrule attached to it. The shear forces and weakness of the ferrule are fighting each other.

If you're able to get ribbons of material off the ferrule, it's too soft for a break ferrule.

After you've made entirely sure that both faces are mating up flat and no rocking is in place, score both the end of the ferrule and the backside of the tip a razor blade and hit them with sandpaper. Using either an air hose/can and not your breath, blow off both faces. Double check the fit. Apply enough Loctite Super Glue Ultra Gel Control to the backside of the tip, and smear it all over. Quickly press into place and quickly clean up the squeezed out glue. Let set 10 minutes. Trim and use. If it still falls off, video tape your entire process for us to see.

In the case of the BK2, do not remove the pad underneath the tip.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Because there are times when you either can't change the ferule or the customer does not want you to change the ferule.

I have only run into this a couple times but once is enough for me to want to learn to do it right.

Right now I have a predator bk2 shaft where the customer wants just a tip put on. (an ice breaker to be specific) and he wants the original ferule intact. that being the case, I can't just do a one piece. and their is a guy that does repairs about a half hour from me and I am tired of losing business to him because his tips aren't falling off. So if his aren't falling off, there has to be some way for mine to also not fall of. hence me asking here.

90 percent of the break and jump cues that come from factory, the tips stay on for the life of the cue. So they must be doing something I'm not. I want to learn what they are doing so I can do it. Simple as that.

I totally understand where you are coming from. But this has been a recurring issue for years. That is why you see alternative designs, some of which were posted in this thread, such as a small tenon built into the bottom of the tip, or a 1 piece ferrule/tip combo, or a small tenon built into the top of the ferrule and going into a shallow mortise in the back of the tip.

Regarding mass produced break cues, I don't think they have it figured out completely either. I remember seeing several phenolic tips fly off at the local pool halls over the years, on break sticks with their original tips.

Anyway, I hope you improve your situation Happy cue repairing

 

[BigDon]

Unless you're cutting your phenolic tip from a rod stock, it should never be faced in the lathe. Use the bed of your lathe, some 180-220 grit sandpaper to scuff and 'flatten' the back of the tip.

Is there a reason your saying this?

I know it's not a common practice but I also face my tips in my 4 jaw chuck and have great results with it. I started noticing when trying to hand sand some hard tips or the black treated tips that sometimes you just don't get them real flat. Some of them will get a slight angle off to one side as well. I use micro100 holders with diamond shape GT carbide bits. You cant get it any flatter. I also don't have any issues with playing tips popping off and I have faced hundreds of tips in my lathe.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Is there a reason your saying this?

I know it's not a common practice but I also face my tips in my 4 jaw chuck and have great results with it. I started noticing when trying to hand sand some hard tips or the black treated tips that sometimes you just don't get them real flat. Some of them will get a slight angle off to one side as well. I use micro100 holders with diamond shape GT carbide bits. You cant get it any flatter. I also don't have any issues with playing tips popping off and I have faced hundreds of tips in my lathe.

Unless the tip isn't flat already there's no reason to. If you're having trouble sanding the back flat, lessen your pressure and choose a finer grit sandpaper. I use 220 myself and have no issues ensuring the back of a tip is flat. The reason facing on the lathe is bad is the smoothness of the cut. Either way the back needs to be scuffed. If you're buying phenolic tips that aren't flat already on the back, you got more problems than just the tip. No matter what though, facing the backside of a tip on a lathe is a completely unneeded step. Unless you are manufacturing your own tips, all tips you buy should have sufficiently flat enough back already that minimal sanding is all that's needed.

 

[BigDon]

I totally understand what your saying. I know how to sand a tip, but I also like to get down a bit to good leather and not just scuff the back. I can face a tip in my lathe just as quick as I can sand most of the time, also no need to use sandpaper when I have a good sharp cutter. I guess to each their own. As far as tips supposed to being flat, yes they are supposed to be. Check a Kamui Clear sometime with a razor blade. Not all but some will have a crown around the outer edge of the poly pad. They are supposed to be ready to install, correct? Now chuck one up and take the lightest pass you can and see on most you see an untouched area.

Not trying to debate the best way to do it. Facing them just works for me.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

I totally understand what your saying. I know how to sand a tip, but I also like to get down a bit to good leather and not just scuff the back. I can face a tip in my lathe just as quick as I can sand most of the time, also no need to use sandpaper when I have a good sharp cutter. I guess to each their own. As far as tips supposed to being flat, yes they are supposed to be. Check a Kamui Clear sometime with a razor blade. Not all but some will have a crown around the outer edge of the poly pad. They are supposed to be ready to install, correct? Now chuck one up and take the lightest pass you can and see on most you see an untouched area.

Not trying to debate the best way to do it. Facing them just works for me.

Damn, you must skim read a lot. Sufficiently flat does not mean flat. It means after a light sanding the tip will be ready to install. Also you need to look up glue bonds. Having two perfectly flat, along with smooth surfaces leads to less glue bond. The scores left from sanding, along with the score marks from a razor blade, make the glues bonding surface 100x greater than before. Which then enhances the glues performance. It basically allows the glue to hook into the surface rather than just sticking to the surface.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Damn, you must skim read a lot. Sufficiently flat does not mean flat. It means after a light sanding the tip will be ready to install. Also you need to look up glue bonds. Having two perfectly flat, along with smooth surfaces leads to less glue bond. The scores left from sanding, along with the score marks from a razor blade, make the glues bonding surface 100x greater than before. Which then enhances the glues performance. It basically allows the glue to hook into the surface rather than just sticking to the surface.

I put Hollywood squares scuffs on the gluing surface of tips.
Scuff it up and down lightly, then turn 90 degrees and do the same on 220 grit paper , after sealing with thin CA.
With phenolic, if he doesn't stem it, I suggest using slow epoxy and let it sit overnight at least.

 

[BigDon]

Damn, you must skim read a lot. Sufficiently flat does not mean flat. It means after a light sanding the tip will be ready to install. Also you need to look up glue bonds. Having two perfectly flat, along with smooth surfaces leads to less glue bond. The scores left from sanding, along with the score marks from a razor blade, make the glues bonding surface 100x greater than before. Which then enhances the glues performance. It basically allows the glue to hook into the surface rather than just sticking to the surface.

Me skim read? I said I like to get the outer glaze off and get down to good leather. A "light sanding" is not going to do that! Take a Lepro and tell me a light sanding will get that cruddy glaze off the back of the tip faster than I can cut one. If I am working a tournament and have 8 shafts waiting, more people standing there with shafts in hand and wanting to get work done this is the fastest way for ME to get the job done. One good pass and it's over. Don't have to worry about it and don't have cramped fingers from sanding tips for two or three days. Have you ever faced a playing tip? It does not come out like the burnished side of a tip like your trying to say it does. I also score most of my tips. I make sure I do everything I can in my power to do the very best work I can. I don't do sufficient, I do the best possible.
Now I was just curious and trying to ask a question to start with without being rude! I see you can't handle that. Trust me, I will never ask you anything again!

You do it your way and I will do it mine, PERIOD!

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

I put Hollywood squares scuffs on the gluing surface of tips.
Scuff it up and down lightly, then turn 90 degrees and do the same on 220 grit paper , after sealing with thin CA.
With phenolic, if he doesn't stem it, I suggest using slow epoxy and let it sit overnight at least.

I haven had a single phenolic or samsara tip pop off yet. The reason for that is I don't install a tip that's harder than the ferrule material is. I used the Loctite I linked on the previous page. Zero problems so far.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Me skim read? I said I like to get the outer glaze off and get down to good leather. A "light sanding" is not going to do that! Take a Lepro and tell me a light sanding will get that cruddy glaze off the back of the tip faster than I can cut one. If I am working a tournament and have 8 shafts waiting, more people standing there with shafts in hand and wanting to get work done this is the fastest way for ME to get the job done. One good pass and it's over. Don't have to worry about it and don't have cramped fingers from sanding tips for two or three days. Have you ever faced a playing tip? It does not come out like the burnished side of a tip like your trying to say it does. I also score most of my tips. I make sure I do everything I can in my power to do the very best work I can. I don't do sufficient, I do the best possible.
Now I was just curious and trying to ask a question to start with without being rude! I see you can't handle that. Trust me, I will never ask you anything again!

You do it your way and I will do it mine, PERIOD!

Fine, you're more than open to misinterpret what I write. If you think a light sanding means just a few passes, you're more than welcome to continue your way. A light sanding means removing just enough material to do its job. If I heavy sand a Kamui tip, I will guarantee that the tip will lose a few layers faster than you can chuck it up and face the tip. Also I never said it produces a glass surface. You continue to put words where I didn't write them, you're sure to end up getting mad when I call you out.

What you seem to forget is that you are doing a lot more work than I am just to install a tip. I chuck up a shaft, remove the old tip and face the ferrule. Then I sand the tip and install happens. You chuck up a tip, face it. Remove the tip, chuck up the shaft and remove old tip and face the ferrule. Then you can glue up the new tip.

Fyi, single layer tips like Le Pro and Triangle are the only ones with a glaze. And I'd agree with chucking those up to face as it would let you identify a bad tip before install. Otherwise layered tips don't have a glaze. So a light sanding is all that's needed.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I've never heard of facing tips chucked up on a lathe until now.

 

[conetip]

Me neither Joey, but just envisioned my next project, a tip holder for the lathe.
A modified ER25 will work just fine based on a 9/16 collet.

I do have holders for the tips so I don't get cramp fingers,have been sanding them all this time.
Thanks Don for the new idea's.
Neil

 

[BigDon]

Fine, you're more than open to misinterpret what I write. If you think a light sanding means just a few passes, you're more than welcome to continue your way. A light sanding means removing just enough material to do its job. If I heavy sand a Kamui tip, I will guarantee that the tip will lose a few layers faster than you can chuck it up and face the tip. Also I never said it produces a glass surface. You continue to put words where I didn't write them, you're sure to end up getting mad when I call you out.

What you seem to forget is that you are doing a lot more work than I am just to install a tip. I chuck up a shaft, remove the old tip and face the ferrule. Then I sand the tip and install happens. You chuck up a tip, face it. Remove the tip, chuck up the shaft and remove old tip and face the ferrule. Then you can glue up the new tip.

Fyi, single layer tips like Le Pro and Triangle are the only ones with a glaze. And I'd agree with chucking those up to face as it would let you identify a bad tip before install. Otherwise layered tips don't have a glaze. So a light sanding is all that's needed.

Call me out? On what? You said the problem with facing the tip is the "smoothness" of the cut and that it needs to be sanded so it is scuffed. Then you went on about it being sanded helps the glue hook in and all that. That to me sounds like your saying the tip after being faced will be smooth and not scuffed with no "hooking action" as you described. Am I wrong or are you backing stepping now? I have no problem with tips coming off. I simply asked a question out of being curious, not out of necessity. I don't need any help sanding or preparing tips.

As far as the install goes, my carriage is already at the head stock. Grab a tip in my right hand and put it in the chuck, hold the jaws with my left thumb and spin the ring with my finger to tighten. Takes no time at all. Crank the cross slide in, cut the tip and it's done. I don't use tommy bars on a tip, quick tighten and loosen and that's it. Can I beat you or you beat me by a couple seconds? Maybe.A lot more work, no. But like I said, my hands cramp easily and after a long weekend, this saves me a good bit off pain pinching all those tips and having to sand them.

 

[Lexicologist71]

Yeah, facing it with the lathe is a new one, but I don't see it as a bad idea. It would certainly save fingers and sandpaper.