Strokes and touch.....

The Renfro

The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Shane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naiMHnSQOLI

Efren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DYDMMw5TtE

Mika https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrBrGSesp2g

Looking at the 3 different strokes it looks to me that they all 3 use different touch centers to alter their cueing based on the shot....

Shane appears to use the latency in his wrist.... Bustemante does this as well but I couldn't find a long enough clip.....

Efren Actually raises up thru his stroke and if you watch some videos of him I don't think it's stricktly for clearance as he varies the amount of lift he has depending on the power and spin he needs......

Mika has a defininite elbow drop so much that he adresses the shot with an elevated cue rubbing his chin and when he pulls the trigger he creates a level cue and there is a distinct difference in distance from his chin than existed on the setup.....

While I am sure some coaches and instructors may argue that these are flaws I am starting to think these are the things that create touch and control and are not flaws but advanced mechanisms that let them play the game at higher levels than most....... IF the game could be played with a level pendulum thats what guys would look like at the highest level but they don't well at least for the most part...

Chris
 
The Renfro said:
Shane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naiMHnSQOLI

Efren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DYDMMw5TtE

Mika https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrBrGSesp2g

Looking at the 3 different strokes it looks to me that they all 3 use different touch centers to alter their cueing based on the shot....

Shane appears to use the latency in his wrist.... Bustemante does this as well but I couldn't find a long enough clip.....

Efren Actually raises up thru his stroke and if you watch some videos of him I don't think it's stricktly for clearance as he varies the amount of lift he has depending on the power and spin he needs......

Mika has a defininite elbow drop so much that he adresses the shot with an elevated cue rubbing his chin and when he pulls the trigger he creates a level cue and there is a distinct difference in distance from his chin than existed on the setup.....

While I am sure some coaches and instructors may argue that these are flaws I am starting to think these are the things that create touch and control and are not flaws but advanced mechanisms that let them play the game at higher levels than most....... IF the game could be played with a level pendulum thats what guys would look like at the highest level but they don't well at least for the most part...

Chris
Click to expand...

Interesting because I fully agree. I have had the same theory for quite a long time now. The problem is that it's so different from person to person that it can't be taught and has to be learned by the individual. It's also nt something that works for every stroke.

Of course there is the competing theory that if you practice something wrong enough times you eventually get the timing flawless and it works. The people you are talking about play pool for stupid amounts of time and have the ability to train their muscles to do any kind of timing they feel like.
 
zpele said:
Interesting because I fully agree. I have had the same theory for quite a long time now. The problem is that it's so different from person to person that it can't be taught and has to be learned by the individual. It's also nt something that works for every stroke.

Of course there is the competing theory that if you practice something wrong enough times you eventually get the timing flawless and it works. The people you are talking about play pool for stupid amounts of time and have the ability to train their muscles to do any kind of timing they feel like.
Click to expand...

I do understand that point but by altering your stroke with small nuances as they do you can create different cueball paths because the spin/speed ratios change... With a traditional stroke you would need to alter the speed and tip placement on the cueball...

To get some of the kill shots they shoot without being way out on the edge of the cueball I think you would approach misscue limits with just speed and tip placement using a traditional pendulum...

To me getting in the zone would be harder trying to use tip placement than using your stroke to create movement since for the most part you would be hitting the ball at a pretty constant pace and just changing the amount of drag or swerve thru your cueing motion...

I haven't met anyone locally that is a pure pendulum user and as far as high end players I think Corey and Hunter might be the closest I have seen... Will bother them at the Open in October and have them shoot a few shots that were spinning kills that we discussed tonight at the pool room.......

As soon as I can get wei table working on the new laptop I will post a pic of one of them....



Chris
 
You point out 3 examples 2 of them has a fairly unorthodox stroke : shane and efren, it works but it's not standard. Well then the question is : "what is standard ?"
mika stroke the same as the taiwaneses, for them that's stroke is standard. elbow drop is a secondary effect of the long follow through, it's just "naturally" dropped to keep the stroke perfectly level. Some players from uk use a very simple stroke ( a level pendulum ) as you said, and yes the guy just won the world 14-1 is included, and yes for them it's also standard. And if you go to philippin and ask, most of them would say efren stroke is the standard.
So...
It's really like the reverse one hand or 2 hand in tennis. Players choose what they feel good with.
Personally I tried all 3 of these strokes and for me the mika's stroke is somewhat in the middle of efren's and darren's. Efren's stroke of course give the cb a tremedous amount of spin but then consistency drops big time if you are not in stroke. If anyone watched the Bergen Open you should notice that Busti now calmed down alot in his stroke, he's not free wheeling like before, guess why :) ?
Darren's stroke is very simple, very efficient, but of course you gonna have less "jus" on the cb.
 
HelloBaby- said:
You point out 3 examples 2 of them has a fairly unorthodox stroke : shane and efren, it works but it's not standard. Well then the question is : "what is standard ?"
mika stroke the same as the taiwaneses, for them that's stroke is standard. elbow drop is a secondary effect of the long follow through, it's just "naturally" dropped to keep the stroke perfectly level. Some players from uk use a very simple stroke ( a level pendulum ) as you said, and yes the guy just won the world 14-1 is included, and yes for them it's also standard. And if you go to philippin and ask, most of them would say efren stroke is the standard.
So...
It's really like the reverse one hand or 2 hand in tennis. Players choose what they feel good with.
Personally I tried all 3 of these strokes and for me the mika's stroke is somewhat in the middle of efren's and darren's. Efren's stroke of course give the cb a tremedous amount of spin but then consistency drops big time if you are not in stroke. If anyone watched the Bergen Open you should notice that Busti now calmed down alot in his stroke, he's not free wheeling like before, guess why :) ?
Darren's stroke is very simple, very efficient, but of course you gonna have less "jus" on the cb.
Click to expand...

Go back and look at 1:22 on the Mika video to when he strikes the ball... It appears the drop has occured before he hits the cueball... He also has an upward elbow motion or raise in addition to the drop.... I think this up and down may add to his feel for the shots and more power will likely mean more of both.......

Chris
 
layout1.jpg

I had a hard time just hitting this with a drag draw to make the ball open off the 1st and 2nd rail just using speed and low left.... By raising up thru the shot ala Efren... I could take speed off the ball and get to the spot I needed to on the table way easier even if the distance increased from the cueball to the 1.... Was an interesting shot to play with.....
 
Last edited:
Exactly why Greenleaf was a master.
His best videos are not available to the public, so its not something I can show you easily, but his stroke was anything but standard. Nonetheless, that kid could pocket balls all day with his eyes closed and not once have his chin over the cue.
It's a touch and feel that he developed as a child, and never needed someone to explain away..
 
Mr. Bond said:
Exactly why Greenleaf was a master.
His best videos are not available to the public, so its not something I can show you easily, but his stroke was anything but standard. Nonetheless, that kid could pocket balls all day with his eyes closed and not once have his chin over the cue.
It's a touch and feel that he developed as a child, and never needed someone to explain away..
Click to expand...

If I could go back in time I would want to see Greenleaf, Mosconi and Eddie Taylor in their primes... Everything I have seen of them was well after father time had taken much of the shine from their games... This is why I have 1000% agreed with Fleming being put into the Hall of Fame... We have all of our current and many past champions immortalized for players to watch from here on out......
 
The Renfro said:
Shane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naiMHnSQOLI

Efren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DYDMMw5TtE

Mika https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrBrGSesp2g

Looking at the 3 different strokes it looks to me that they all 3 use different touch centers to alter their cueing based on the shot....

Shane appears to use the latency in his wrist.... Bustemante does this as well but I couldn't find a long enough clip.....

Efren Actually raises up thru his stroke and if you watch some videos of him I don't think it's stricktly for clearance as he varies the amount of lift he has depending on the power and spin he needs......

Mika has a defininite elbow drop so much that he adresses the shot with an elevated cue rubbing his chin and when he pulls the trigger he creates a level cue and there is a distinct difference in distance from his chin than existed on the setup.....

While I am sure some coaches and instructors may argue that these are flaws I am starting to think these are the things that create touch and control and are not flaws but advanced mechanisms that let them play the game at higher levels than most....... IF the game could be played with a level pendulum thats what guys would look like at the highest level but they don't well at least for the most part...

Chris
Click to expand...

in mikas video, everything the guy talks about came naturally to me. no, im not saying I have a great stroke or anything, but I think of pool as a sport, and I'm a natural athlete, meaning just like when I ride a motorcycle I instinctively lower my body to reduce mass thus removing drag, or when I play a sport and need to change directions I lower my center of gravity, I instinctively put my body in a place to perform a task better. Most here that are athletically inclined to the same I would think. and as far as flaws in a stroke, I believe that if you successfully perform the task, be it speed, english, etc... its fine. best examples are allen hopkins, worst stroke ever, guy shot pretty well back in his haydays, busty, that up and down fan motion, guy plays pretty good. or what about righties that are left eye dominant, their follow through looks like they finish sideways. theres no right way, there are rules you need to follow, and instructors always do and should teach them, but you can have a style. my .02
 
trinacria said:
in mikas video, everything the guy talks about came naturally to me. no, im not saying I have a great stroke or anything, but I think of pool as a sport, and I'm a natural athlete, meaning just like when I ride a motorcycle I instinctively lower my body to reduce mass thus removing drag, or when I play a sport and need to change directions I lower my center of gravity, I instinctively put my body in a place to perform a task better. Most here that are athletically inclined to the same I would think. and as far as flaws in a stroke, I believe that if you successfully perform the task, be it speed, english, etc... its fine. best examples are allen hopkins, worst stroke ever, guy shot pretty well back in his haydays, busty, that up and down fan motion, guy plays pretty good. or what about righties that are left eye dominant, their follow through looks like they finish sideways. theres no right way, there are rules you need to follow, and instructors always do and should teach them, but you can have a style. my .02
Click to expand...

Just an observation on stroke mechanics as I have been trying to rebuild from a very long layoff... This time I have endeavored to play with the classic pendulum and fundamentals as laid out in Mark Wilson's book... Many of which can be found elsewhere and are routinely taught as Mark is a Briesath disciple..

After several months trying and making no headway I just started hitting balls with the intent that I would find a rhythm and figure out what was different when I found it... I spent hours today on a tight diamond and went from missing everything to getting out on a few full 15 ball rotation racks by th end of the night.....

The difference was moving from being very rigid to being fluid.... When I was rigid I was clubbing the ball and when I was too fluid I was missing on the other side of things... Over throwing, over cutting and fanning shots... When I was in a controlled fluidity and just playing the balls started listening...

The shot I diagrammed I hit and someone asked me what I put on it since whitey opened up off the first and second rail pretty much crawling it's way to the best spot I could have gotten to..... I replied bottom left? and tried to hit it again.... and again... and again... being rigid and not in motion I hit the 2 ball over and over.....

I set it up after thinking about it and just let myself make the shot and move the ball and I stood almost straight up on it and lo and behold I was dead on the spot I was trying to get to.... I did it several more times and could get it to open even wider off the second rail......

Was an awakening I hope... I know some of the changes I made thanks to Mark's book have taken hold so if I add my feel and as you say "athletic ability" back I think I may have a few more years terrorizing my friends around these parts and I won't totally embarass myself if I hit the regional events......

I will NEVER EVER say that fundamentals shouldn't be learned... Just don't think they are all it's going to take to play the game.....

Chris
 
Last edited:
Many people think there is one particular way to "stroke" the actual shot.

Some people literally pull their cue straight back and kind of throw the cue thru the ball to execute a shot. Some people use their hand and with a slightly firmer grip use a deliberate hand action to shoot,rather than letting the cues weight come forward and slip thru their hands.

Mike Sigel is a player I believe executed with a deliberate hand/wrist action,rather than letting the cue glide a little in his grip like Efren does in the above video.

Buddy seems to be taking a long pushing motion to hit the cue ball to my eye.

Neils for example seems to follow thru the EXACT distance his bridge V is from the cue ball. Mike Sigel always followed thru,but unless you watched him hit the same shot over and over again like in a drill like those Neils did with Bert Kinister,Mike's follow thru was probably not as noticably consistent as Neil's.

Keith at times looked like he just poked at the ball to get it moving,but I can't argue with his results LOL.

I've picked up a LOT of things just watching a player's grip hands,watching the bumper of their cue on certain angles,and stuff like that.

You also can help yourself by NOT watching those things during a meaningful match and get immersed in their stroke and not executing your own.

I watched Nick Varner set up varying length straight in draw shots on a tournament room Gold Crown at Q-Masters in Virginia Beach while he was warming up for the finals against Efren in '94.

He was setting a dime on the table behind the cue ball but down on the cloth under his tip,and at times he drew the cue ball back and would hit the dime.

Sometimes,he just wanted to see how close he could get to it.

At times,he said the plan was for the cue ball to come back and hit the dime at varying degrees of "pace" as he was doing this.

How many times have YOU needed to make the ball and have to draw it as close to 5 inches as you could get,or a foot,foot and a half?

Watching him that day made it seem like he was incapable of hitting one bad enough to not draw it within a 1/2 inch of exactly what he needed.

This was on a GC with 4 1/2 pockets too. Tommy D.
 
Once you learn basic fundamentals you then have to learn what works for you. In all my years in this game I noticed that many greats have an unorthodox style that is not in line with what some would call good form but it works for them and their level of play clearly demonstrates its really about 1 thing, being able to deliver a consistent stroke shot after shot after shot. This is where they're all the same, their strokes may be different but their consistency at delivering the stroke is rock solid. It's really about time applied. Almost all greats dedicated a great portion of their life playing this game, they found what worked for them and honed it through thousands upon thousands of hours of repetition. I would hazard anyone to not try to emulate these unorthodox styles but instead develop your own style. At the end of the day it's about putting in time, period. If you don't play at least an hour a day your game will only be 60-70% of what it could be with properly applied daily practice. If you're a league player or weekend warrior then just banish all hope for ever achieving more than a certain level of play & learn to be comfortable with that instead of frustrated. This game is truly one of those things in life where you will only get out of it what you put into it, it's just the way it is.
 
Well said!!!!!!!

Colonel said:
Once you learn basic fundamentals you then have to learn what works for you. In all my years in this game I noticed that many greats have an unorthodox style that is not in line with what some would call good form but it works for them and their level of play clearly demonstrates its really about 1 thing, being able to deliver a consistent stroke shot after shot after shot. This is where they're all the same, their strokes may be different but their consistency at delivering the stroke is rock solid. It's really about time applied. Almost all greats dedicated a great portion of their life playing this game, they found what worked for them and honed it through thousands upon thousands of hours of repetition. I would hazard anyone to not try to emulate these unorthodox styles but instead develop your own style. At the end of the day it's about putting in time, period. If you don't play at least an hour a day your game will only be 60-70% of what it could be with properly applied daily practice. If you're a league player or weekend warrior then just banish all hope for ever achieving more than a certain level of play & learn to be comfortable with that instead of frustrated. This game is truly one of those things in life where you will only get out of it what you put into it, it's just the way it is.
Click to expand...

Well said, its all about realizing where your game is and working on the little that can move your game up.
 
You have pre-lim stroke....delivery stroke... finish stroke
Then comes the Completion or Finishing touch of the stroke.
It's outside the conventional teaching and learning
Yes there is a difference

All the best players have it
Many people never see it or pay attention to it
It cannot be taught, it can only be shown or pointed out.
It is different on most shots
Sometimes it just a freeze, most times it is not
It's the ultimate delivery
It's a feel and touch that is beautiful
It just happens, you don't learn it, you don't force it, it comes naturally when you have put the time in.
It finds you when you know the cue ball inside out and have the stroke to deliver it, it takes time for it to develope

It's all about the cue ball and stroke, everything else is easy compared.
 
The Renfro said:
Shane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naiMHnSQOLI

Efren https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DYDMMw5TtE

Mika https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrBrGSesp2g

Looking at the 3 different strokes it looks to me that they all 3 use different touch centers to alter their cueing based on the shot....

Shane appears to use the latency in his wrist.... Bustemante does this as well but I couldn't find a long enough clip.....

Efren Actually raises up thru his stroke and if you watch some videos of him I don't think it's stricktly for clearance as he varies the amount of lift he has depending on the power and spin he needs......

Mika has a defininite elbow drop so much that he adresses the shot with an elevated cue rubbing his chin and when he pulls the trigger he creates a level cue and there is a distinct difference in distance from his chin than existed on the setup.....

While I am sure some coaches and instructors may argue that these are flaws I am starting to think these are the things that create touch and control and are not flaws but advanced mechanisms that let them play the game at higher levels than most....... IF the game could be played with a level pendulum thats what guys would look like at the highest level but they don't well at least for the most part...

Chris
Click to expand...
'
This is a great observation Chris!!!! I use to have what I will call a less than ideal stroke. I say that only because I tried to copy Efren, Earl, and Busty when I began playing. Problem one: we didn't have much film of those guys in the early 90's(so going on memory). Problem two: I had really no way to use side by side video to understand how close or how far away I was in copying it, only how I felt. I would say all of these people do what they do because of the same reason. Efren may be the only exception because of the equipment he grew up with, only to a certain degree.

I have spoken to Mika about his stroke and he has a firm belief about elbow drop as a basic fundamental of a great stroke. He also told me he copied his stroke from Busty and Efren.

I believe you can play well with any stroke if you have enough time to maintain it.
But I would ask when deciding on what path to take, pick any of them mentioned above and Neils; make them not pick up a cue for 6 months, who would you bet money on?
How can more moving parts promote control or feel?
There are certain shots that come up that you have to feel, but 95% are measurable! After all isn't algebra easier with less variables?

Edit: I will add this a great book to read http://www.amazon.com/Talent-Overrated-Separates-World-Class-Performers/dp/1591842948
 
Last edited:
I think everyone has there own kinda style like the 3 you included to a degree. I know that, for me, on power shots where I really gotta stroke the ball I use both wrist action and elbow dropping.

When I played tonight I practiced long draw shots, and whole table follow shots, etc. and I noticed I use both of these when I stroke and it helps me to feel myself in stroke. I know that I'm off because my stroke doesn't really feel "good" unless I do both of these before my final stroke.
 
The Renfro said:
View attachment 350182

I had a hard time just hitting this with a drag draw to make the ball open off the 1st and 2nd rail just using speed and low left.... By raising up thru the shot ala Efren... I could take speed off the ball and get to the spot I needed to on the table way easier even if the distance increased from the cueball to the 1.... Was an interesting shot to play with.....
Click to expand...

I love shots like that, infact I'm too much in love with draw shots, I need to force myself to use follow.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top