to all you apa bashers...and all league haters also

[lorider]

I'm kind of surprised there hasn't been more controversy over the newly implemented 3 pt system. But it does seem to be working as intended.

the only people that would probably raise a stink about it would be sandbaggers.

under the old system if you were tied at 2 matches a piece going into the 5th match you could run up innings and win hill-hill and your team wins.

now under the new 3 point system if you are down by 2 going into the 5 th match you gotta win by a shut out for your team to win. if you win hill-hill you win the match but your team loses for the night by 1 point. you cant win by a shut out and sandbag at the same time...i dont think ?:grin:

 

[liakos]

i guess i and a few oters on here are lucky to have the lo's we do. it seems every ones experience is mostly due to the lo they have....not the national organization ...which proves my point.

my point is ..any local league experience can be good or bad based on how weel it is ran. i dont think the apa has a monopoly on bad lo's.

another point is...any time some one mentions apa....this thread is a perfect example you have post after post bashing it.

when a thread about a bcapl lo apparently not planning on paying for a team to go to nationals not much was said on here.

a thread about a bcapl lo substituting one player for an ineligible player on his personal team at the nationals....again ...not much is said on here.

a thread about a team of master players entering the open division at bcapl nationals... again not much is said on here.

yet those 3 letters ...apa ... causes a shitload of posts on here bashing the entire organization and lumping all its players as bangers....sandbaggers....drunks...cheaters etc etc etc.

why do people on here not say much when crap happens in other leagues but quick to point out the same crap in apa ?

There are no other leagues in my area that I'm aware of! Sorry! I can't answer this question.

 

[jburkm002]

All leagues are dependent on ALL team captains doing their job. Doesn't help when one or two captains write someone up for suspension of sandbagging. While other just complain about it. I would assume any system can be manipulated. Let's say your in the playoffs and a low ranked player is shooting better than their handicap. You complain to the league. They look the player up and they have never been written up. In your mind you know they are a sandbagger. From the paperwork turned in every week by team captains. That player is ranked properly in the system. So really. Who fault is it. The system or the players responsible for maintaining the integrity of the league.

 

[lorider]

My answer is pretty simple, sandbaggers! When it comes to teaching, I'm always there to show anyone anything anytime! But the league itself is BS! Maybe because I'm from the Rhode Island league (was) and the LO is a complete dick! But I hear nothing but "hey, keep your innings high" and "don't worry, just lose because we can't afford for you to go up"! If I've played against 40,different teams, I can say safely 5-6 of those teams played serious and at least 20 were baggers! The others, don't know!

Your post is a great post, but due to my experience, league sucks! It's all about missing balls, keeping your innings high, and losing! Who in there right mind wants to be a part of that?? Oohhhh oohhhh, I know, the sanbaggers that win the Vegas trip every year! It's funny how the same ones go time and time again

i forgot to mention this in my other reply to you.

i have been asked twice this year to join a team in my area that go to vegas every year. i told him i could not leave my team as my g/f had started it 3 years ago.

we finished in 2nd place to them last year in 8 ball cities. we beat that same team in 9 ball cities last year and we went to vegas.

this year his same 8 ball team went again and a different 9 ball team he has went also. he has 6 teams total in different apa divisions and 2 of his teams always go every year. he told me i could join any of his teams i wanted.

let me make this clear. I AINT NO SNADBAGGER AND HE KNOWS IT.

 

[lorider]

All leagues are dependent on ALL team captains doing their job. Doesn't help when one or two captains write someone up for suspension of sandbagging. While other just complain about it. I would assume any system can be manipulated. Let's say your in the playoffs and a low ranked player is shooting better than their handicap. You complain to the league. They look the player up and they have never been written up. In your mind you know they are a sandbagger. From the paperwork turned in every week by team captains. That player is ranked properly in the system. So really. Who fault is it. The system or the players responsible for maintaining the integrity of the league.

excellent point. i said it many times on here...proper scorekeeping helps ensure proper handicaps.

i have also mentioned on here that apa has a form called ...handicap review for captains ...or any player for that matter that can be filled out and turned in if you suspect some one is sand bagging.

there is not much a lo can do with out paper work to back up some ones complaint.

i play on a team with my lo. more than once when i have mentioned to him some ones handicap he has said he has heard other complaints recently about the same person. most of the time said individual was raised ...some were not or have not been raised yet.

he does not arbitrarily raise some one just based on a complaint.

 

[buckshotshoey]

excellent point. i said it many times on here...proper scorekeeping helps ensure proper handicaps.

i have also mentioned on here that apa has a form called ...handicap review for captains ...or any player for that matter that can be filled out and turned in if you suspect some one is sand bagging.

there is not much a lo can do with out paper work to back up some ones complaint.

i play on a team with my lo. more than once when i have mentioned to him some ones handicap he has said he has heard other complaints recently about the same person. most of the time said individual was raised ...some were not or have not been raised yet.

he does not arbitrarily raise some one just based on a complaint.

Another good idea is an anonymous handicap review committee, made up of the best players in the area, and review handicaps once a session. The league operator usually implements the recommendations of the committee, but LO has final authority. Sandbagging is a little harder.

 

[liakos]

i forgot to mention this in my other reply to you.

i have been asked twice this year to join a team in my area that go to vegas every year. i told him i could not leave my team as my g/f had started it 3 years ago.

we finished in 2nd place to them last year in 8 ball cities. we beat that same team in 9 ball cities last year and we went to vegas.

this year his same 8 ball team went again and a different 9 ball team he has went also. he has 6 teams total in different apa divisions and 2 of his teams always go every year. he told me i could join any of his teams i wanted.

let me make this clear. I AINT NO SNADBAGGER AND HE KNOWS IT.

My friend, if your having a good time and enjoy the league, by all means, stick with it and have fun my experiences make me feel the way I do. If I was lucky like you, I would be posting the same as you! But my experience wasn't so! It's all good, shoot em in the hole

 

[peppersauce]

.............

 

[buckshotshoey]

This sounds like fun. Does the masters league thingy pay out well? I've got no interest in going to Vegas or Reno. I think it would be fun to jump on a good team and try to win though.

How much does it cost to play and what % is payed back to the players that win at the end of the session? I've never heard of this format.

They use US Amateur Championship rules. You play 3 people a night....4 allowed on roster. No handicap. Play both 8 ball and 9 ball on same night.

 

[peppersauce]

...............

 

[buckshotshoey]

I like the format. No handicap, race to 7...is it winner break? Because that would really make it fun. It's probably not. Do you know if the masters league pays out well? If it's one of those things where you pay every week for a chance to win a trip, I'm not interested. Otherwise, I might just look into this!

Best way is to contact the local apa LO and ask what structure they use. Get the info first hand from your area.

 

[justadub]

I like the format. No handicap, race to 7...is it winner break? Because that would really make it fun. It's probably not. Do you know if the masters league pays out well? If it's one of those things where you pay every week for a chance to win a trip, I'm not interested. Otherwise, I might just look into this!

I don't believe APA anywhere pays out per week in any format. Yes, the trip is the carrot.

Different LO's pay out (or don't, I suppose) according to their own determinations. Our LO pays out winnings at the end of each session, based on who wins the playoffs for that session. The more teams that play that session, the larger the payout will be. (Based on a percentage scale, of course.)

Its not a huge payout. I think we do ok here compared to what I hear other complaining about. Our 13 team 8-ball division will have the winning team split around $1000 (probably high $900's), second place will spilt $500-600, 3rd splits around $300, and fourth splits around $150-$180. Just a guess, from last session with the same number of team, if memory serves.

From the sound of your post, I don't think this is what you are looking for, and that's cool too. APA isn't designed as a money league. We do get some back at the end of the session, tho. And every one of the 32 or so teams that make it to states here gets some for each round they play in states, as well. It's a nice little bit of pocket change, considering most of us are playing because we like to and for the competition.

 

[justadub]

masters division is available in any area apa is located. it seems to me that a lot of people are not willing to play masters because they cannot handle the format.

its the toughest format of any league in my opinion. race to 7 even up...no handicapping involved. call shot...jump cues allowed.... push out allowed in 9 ball. no marking pockets in 8 ball.

it is a serious players league. usually only the best players in town that dont play in any handicapped leagues play masters. i played in it when i was only a 4 and got my ass handed to me more often than not but i did win a few here and there. i quit due to a conflict with work but plan on playing it again.

winner of lag chooses what game to start...8 or 9 ball. loser of lag gets to break 1st. race to 4 in that format and then switch over to the other game until one guy wins 7 racks.

in my opinion masters division is the closest you can get to playing a format like the pros due while playing in an amateur league.

i think a couple reasons masters is not more popular than it is are these.

1. people have the misconception if you play in masters and do well your handicap will go up if you play in handicapped divisions. that is false.

2. people are afraid to play in it because they cannot use the old " i lost to a sandbagger " excuse when they get their ass handed to them. :grin-square:

again i say no league out there comes as close to " big boy pool " as some of you out there like to call your " insert league here " as apa masters does.

bcapl is handicapped.
tap is handicapped.
napa is handicapped
valley is handicapped.
etc..etc..etc..

yes i do agree with some of you that dont like apa for various reasons. but just like i said in my op...apa has something for every one at all skill levels and really does not deserve the bashing that goes on in this forum.

We have a few Masters teams in our LO's area, enough that he can send a couple to Vegas each year. We just don't have the demographics to support another division in most areas of our state. (The LO"s territory is the entire state, as I understand. Not many people in Maine, heh heh) I think it would be tough to get a third division going each week in most of the places that play APA here.

Not every place plays both 8-ball and 9-ball, but quite a few do. Adding a third night for those players, and getting enough that are willing to play such that there were enough teams, that would be difficult here. There are a few players that I speak with here locally that like the idea of the format, but that third night would be tough here.

An idea that I had, and one that I want to speak with our LO about, would be to have it be a traveling league of sorts, and spread the season out over a year, playing once a month. We could probably field a couple teams from each community, and have the neighboring communities face of each month. There are two other communities near us here that we could do that with, perhaps there are three similar in the southern part of the state as well. It's enough of a drive that it probably wouldn't be successful if we had to do it more often than once a month... I'm gonna see our LO on Sunday (9-ball Tri-Cups!), hopefully I can run it by him then.

 

[oldplayer]

They use US Amateur Championship rules. You play 3 people a night....4 allowed on roster. No handicap. Play both 8 ball and 9 ball on same night.

just a slight correction. whoever wins the lag choses weather he breaks or not. if he choses to break then the opponent choses the game to start. if it is 9 ball, and it is a race to 7 and one of the players does a 7 pack (yes winner breaks) then the match between the 2 players is over and 8 ball is not played. if the match starts in 8 ball the players play a total of 5 games and then change to 9 ball to finish out the race to 7.......this is my 2nd session with the master's league and by far I prefer this way for league play. no sandbagging no dumping etc..I am not p[laying pool as a social event.. I always enjoyed playing a better player, that's how I learned to be a better player. as far as payouts. it does not really matter to me, I just play for the love of the game.

 

[peppersauce]

..............

 

[hang-the-9]

I've never heard of any league that paid out on a nightly basis. I didn't think I implied that. I probably could've worded it more clearly though.

What I meant to say was if this is a league where a large portion of the weekly dues are siphoned off for someone's trip to Vegas and the winning team for the session gets the scraps, I may not be interested.

As far as the format goes, it sounds fantastic! I would definitely play and I think I would actually enjoy it!

One of the things I did not like about the USAPL league I was in, if you won the Vegas trip and for some reason could not go, you did not have an option to get the cash instead.

My son was on a team that won the trip, but he could not go. He did have a Jr Nationals trip he was going to go to, but I could not take the money and use it for another thing, even though he earned the trip and costs would have been the same.

Another thing I don't like much is the playoffs in leagues vs team standings at end of season. We had the #1 team several times in the USAPL. Then lose in the playoffs and get nothing. What's the benefit of winning a season? There should be a prize for BOTH being in 1st place and winning the playoffs. Having a possible bye in 1st round is nice, but with handicaps, the other playoff games can be a toss up as to who wins.

 

[center pocket]

From everything I have read about these leagues, they are all missing a very important element. Most successful companies and Non Profits have a mission that is backed up by values the organization tries to adhere too. Without this solid foundation the organization will not have a direction for future growth or an obligation to make morally right decisions. When this happens, the organization fails to see the value in punishing LOs or players when they break the rules; this leads to a lack of respect for the organization and an eventual destruction of the organization from the inside out. The funny thing is if you hold them accountable to your established values, people will see the organization is to not be messed with.

 

[Celophanewrap]

i guess i and a few oters on here are lucky to have the lo's we do. it seems every ones experience is mostly due to the lo they have....not the national organization ...which proves my point.

my point is ..any local league experience can be good or bad based on how weel it is ran. i dont think the apa has a monopoly on bad lo's.

another point is...any time some one mentions apa....this thread is a perfect example you have post after post bashing it.

when a thread about a bcapl lo apparently not planning on paying for a team to go to nationals not much was said on here.

a thread about a bcapl lo substituting one player for an ineligible player on his personal team at the nationals....again ...not much is said on here.

a thread about a team of master players entering the open division at bcapl nationals... again not much is said on here.

yet those 3 letters ...apa ... causes a shitload of posts on here bashing the entire organization and lumping all its players as bangers....sandbaggers....drunks...cheaters etc etc etc.

why do people on here not say much when crap happens in other leagues but quick to point out the same crap in apa ?

After reading some of these posts I feel very lucky to have the LO that we have here.
Tough I really don't get something, the whining about "bangers.... sandbaggers.... drunks... cheaters etc etc etc" I think it's been established that those are issues in every league, So why throw stones? "People that play in glass pool halls......"
Here's a thought, what if we all agreed to act our ages, like adults? It may take a little while but the idiots will get weeded out, there is no way it was gonna happen over night anyways. After that we'll just have to deal with the addicted gamblers that don't have anything constructive to say.

 

[Mark Griffin]

lorider

Lorider,

I don't know about the other leagues But -
BCAPL is a sanctioning body. We have 500 league operators that run different formats and use different policies on handicapping and rules. It is their league.

But when there players come to the nationals, they must play by our standard rules. There is no handicapping - but we do have different skill level divisions.

Just trying to avoid any confusion that your post might create.

BCAPL is not a handicap league. But it is a local option.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL

again i say no league out there comes as close to " big boy pool " as some of you out there like to call your " insert league here " as apa masters does.

bcapl is handicapped.
tap is handicapped.
napa is handicapped
valley is handicapped.
etc..etc..etc..

 

[lorider]

Lorider,

I don't know about the other leagues But -
BCAPL is a sanctioning body. We have 500 league operators that run different formats and use different policies on handicapping and rules. It is their league.

But when there players come to the nationals, they must play by our standard rules. There is no handicapping - but we do have different skill level divisions.

Just trying to avoid any confusion that your post might create.

BCAPL is not a handicap league. But it is a local option.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL

you are correct mr griffin and pardon me if my post was not clear.

in that post i was refering strictly to the apa masters division as not being handicapped. ...all other apa divisions and all other leagues are handicapped.

the difference between local leagues and the nationals is another issue in itself and probably deserves its own thread.

nothing against bcapl itself and you in particular because i think what you do is great for pool. i prefer continuity between local leagues and nationals my self.