to all you apa bashers...and all league haters also

[justadub]

Once again, exactly what are we talking about when we say "growing the sport or pool"? Selling more cues? Just having more people play for no reason other than more people are playing pool? Or having a pro tour that is followed by people? Having people go to tournaments outside of league? Those last two I see very very very little happening from league players and to me that is what "growing pool" means.

Sure having companies that sponsor tournaments get more money from sales is great, but I don't think MLB would care one bit if there were 100 million players playing baseball every week if none of them went to see the pro teams and bought jerseys with players names on them or watched the games on TV. MLB would fold if their idea of growing the sport is like what most people thing about when they say "growing pool". Without pro events, TV coverage, live stream support, turnament attendance, there is no pool. 40 million drunk fat guys taking 30 minutes to play a game of 8 ball is not improving anything. Out of all the APA, USAPL, BCAPL, TAP and god knows how many other leauges, TAR could barely get a thousand people to watch the best players on earth go head to head.

Do the top Scabble players benefit from you or me playing Scrabble every week? No, they benefit from those that follow them and bring in money to help pay for their tournaments.

So how can anyone say leagues grow pool when only a tiny percentage of league players do anything with pool outside of league? And most of those that do were already interested in the sport before league. Leauge players for the most part help grow league revenue. The only league I know that is involed with promoting pool as a real sport is the BCAPL and USAPL through Mark Griffin. He was involed with TAR, provided several good pro events alongside the league tournaments and is even an active poster on AZB.

What do YOU consider "growing" pool? A pro tour? TV?

How does that go about happening? How could anything involving a tour, let alone TV, occur without public support? How many people that do not play pool will ever watch, let alone support, pro pool?

It makes sense to me that the more "little people" that are involved in pool, the greater audience exists to "grow" the professional side of it. Let alone where will the sponsors for any growth on the professional side come from? One would have to think the bulk of them would have to be from the pool industry, and how does that happen? From pool related companies being successful....and that happens how? From hundreds of thousands of "little people", i.e. League Players, purchasing their goods and services.

Is that happening now, no. is there an amazing lack of knowledge amongst league players about the pro side of pool, yes. Whose fault is that, the league players? Or the industry itself, by not marketing itself better to all of those league players? Since the industry itself has the most to gain, one would think that the leagues would get a significant amount of attention, yet I don't see it. Why? Well, perhaps some of the industry members aren't terribly concerned with growing the pro side of things....don'tcha think? (Yes, there are many pool industry members that support pro pool. They are to be applauded. But as a percentage of companies that make money in the pool industry, how many actively support pro pool? Small number, methinks.)

 

[Banks]

The problem is that no one wants to pay to watch pros play pool. How many on this forum only watch matches on youtube or free streams?

I've been to plenty of ball games. If I had to sit perfectly still and not make a sound, that number would be about 1. Pool's worst enemy is a boring environment.

 

[BeachBum2012]

The problem is that no one wants to pay to watch pros play pool. How many on this forum only watch matches on youtube or free streams?

The writing is on the wall. While millions of people play pool, not nearly that many want to watch it which is how professional sports get their money either directly from ticket sales and TV deals or indirectly through selling advertising.

So with no money from sponsors, advertising, ticket-buying people, how is a professional pool tour supposed to survive?

I agree with this part right here. You know why people who have never played competitive football watch? Because their dads watched when they were little. The tossed the pigskin around in the at halftime on thanksgiving. Kids are exposed to football from birth in America today.

Kids don't get that for pool. Kids aren't allowed in bars to play. Most pool halls around are 18 or 21 and over. The only kids get exposure to pool is if they have a table at home.

Kids are the source of entertainment money and that is what sports are, entertainment. The entire music industry is currently based on what kind of garbage a 12 year old girl wants to listen to. The sports industry is based on which star an 8 year old boy wants to grow up to be like. Hook kids young and they'll spend money on that entertainment for life. How can we change that in pool?

 

[krupa]

I've been to plenty of ball games. If I had to sit perfectly still and not make a sound, that number would be about 1. Pool's worst enemy is a boring environment.

I go to Turning Stone to watch but I can't sit through an entire match. I have to get up, check out the vendors, get a snack, go play video poker, etc. I have a lot of accu-stats DVDs but I only watch a few racks at a time, then I get up and do something else.

I agree with this part right here. You know why people who have never played competitive football watch? Because their dads watched when they were little. The tossed the pigskin around in the at halftime on thanksgiving. Kids are exposed to football from birth in America today.

Kids don't get that for pool. Kids aren't allowed in bars to play. Most pool halls around are 18 or 21 and over. The only kids get exposure to pool is if they have a table at home.

Kids are the source of entertainment money and that is what sports are, entertainment. The entire music industry is currently based on what kind of garbage a 12 year old girl wants to listen to. The sports industry is based on which star an 8 year old boy wants to grow up to be like. Hook kids young and they'll spend money on that entertainment for life. How can we change that in pool?

My dad wasn't around a lot but he got me interested in baseball when I was a kid. I played little league and can appreciate what the players at the MLB level are doing. I'm a baseball fan to this day.

No one in my family liked football. For some reason, my sisters got into it later in life (no they never played) but I can't stand watching it.

I recently started watching golf, but that is only because I started playing golf first.

I know it's wrong to make conclusions based on personal, anecdotal evidence, but personally I only care about the sports that I actively participate(d) in.

 

[hang-the-9]

You're kidding here, right? Growth of the game = growth in the business. You seem to think baseball and the like only exist because their are pro leagues. Those events fill stadiums of hundreds of thousands and TV viewers in the millions. Why?

Let's just stick with your MLB example. Kids start around 5 yrs old or so playing t-ball. Baseballs sold by Rawlings, Riddell helmets, Mizumo gloves, Louiville bats, Nike cleats, etc. all start getting purchased here. These are the same vendors that support MLB. That's just by the players. The organization providing playing fields have whole other sets of merchandise that also get purchased to upkeep stadiums. But let's stay with the players. Many of these kids continue playing little league (uh, oh...I see a trend here), then babe ruth, and in school jv and/or varsity. All the while keeping baseball and athletic vendors rolling in sales all throughout their lives. If they go to college, there's even more big time money being spent on baseball. Not everyone will make it to the MLB. But you still have thousands of people playing local baseball, or when their older, softball leagues with buddies. The list goes on. It's the interest and the money invested for themselves that have people interested to fund pro sports.

Don't get it twisted.

The APA has been around since 1981 and has over a quarter million members. throughout the country. It's the biggest and longest active pool league in the US. It's not the only pool league in the country. Someone will have to explain how the pros will give this many people and more the ability to participate, learn and enjoy the game. To say the APA and other leagues do nothing to promote the game of pool, is seriously lacking any common sense.

The giant difference here is that all those purchases get back to the MLB organization through licensing, TV and gate sales by the fans. The pool league money does not go to any organized pool structure aside from the league itself which is a business on it's own. Leauge players don't go to tournaments, they don't pay for PPV streams, hell they don't even watch the FREE streams.

Unless all those league players do someting outside of league, they only exist to benefit the league revenue since none of the money goes out to support anything else. Even free events and streams don't get support because most league players have no real intrest in pool.

Baseball fans go to games, they play games on their own, they talk about the pro players they watch TV games.

Leauge players in pool do none of those things. Maybe 5% do. As I said, I played on two leagues, with at least a 100 players in it. Not more than half dozen have played in a tournament or have gone to see a tournament or watched live stream matches or purchased a PPV for a pool match. They show up for league, they play a game, they walk out.

 

[takeitdown]

How about answering the question that you posed? What have you done for pool?

You must be a blast to hang out with. "You think having a jersey makes you a fan?" "You think getting a couple of recipes down makes you a cook?" If anything, people like you are bad for the game.

Whatever dude have your fun playing with bangers. Not my fault you got no heart.
If guys like you are the future of pool, its already dead.

 

[itsfroze]

The giant difference here is that all those purchases get back to the MLB organization through licensing, TV and gate sales by the fans. The pool league money does not go to any organized pool structure aside from the league itself which is a business on it's own. Leauge players don't go to tournaments, they don't pay for PPV streams, hell they don't even watch the FREE streams.

Unless all those league players do someting outside of league, they only exist to benefit the league revenue since none of the money goes out to support anything else. Even free events and streams don't get support because most league players have no real interest in pool.

Baseball fans go to games, they play games on their own, they talk about the pro players they watch TV games.

Leauge players in pool do none of those things. Maybe 5% do. As I said, I played on two leagues, with at least a 100 players in it. Not more than half dozen have played in a tournament or have gone to see a tournament or watched live stream matches or purchased a PPV for a pool match. They show up for league, they play a game, they walk out.

That sums it up nicely.
5% might even be generous !

 

[BeachBum2012]

The giant difference here is that all those purchases get back to the MLB organization through licensing, TV and gate sales by the fans. The pool league money does not go to any organized pool structure aside from the league itself which is a business on it's own. Leauge players don't go to tournaments, they don't pay for PPV streams, hell they don't even watch the FREE streams.

A few points here. Rawlings gloves aren't licensed by MLB. Louisville Slugger Bats are not licensed by MLB. Nike cleats, also not licensed by MLB. Those are all akin to Predator Cues, Aramith Balls, and Diamond tables. These companies sell products to AMETURE players and those sales fund their ability to sponsor pro level sports.

Unless all those league players do someting outside of league, they only exist to benefit the league revenue since none of the money goes out to support anything else. Even free events and streams don't get support because most league players have no real intrest in pool.

Maybe the problem in viewership is two fold. There isn't as much interest and the availability sucks. Both need to be worked on from the bottom level. You know how MMA took off in pro money? The moved away from PPV and started airing their main events for free! Easy access means more viewership, which means more sponsors. Basic economics.

Baseball fans go to games, they play games on their own, they talk about the pro players they watch TV games.

Again, baseball is in our blood as Americans. Its in our face. Before I started playing league pool seven or so years ago, I could only name one pro pool player. Who's fault is that? The APA?

Leauge players in pool do none of those things. Maybe 5% do. As I said, I played on two leagues, with at least a 100 players in it. Not more than half dozen have played in a tournament or have gone to see a tournament or watched live stream matches or purchased a PPV for a pool match. They show up for league, they play a game, they walk out.

Sure, a lot of league players only play league. Even 80% of league players only play league, that leaves 50,000 people supporting the sport of pool outside of league night who are members on one single league, the APA. Pretending that these facts aren't true is just silly.

 

[hang-the-9]

- snip -

Your argument about leagues not growing pool are perfectly valid so long as you accept your definition of "growing pool" i.e., that "growing pool" really means "growing professional pool."

The writing is on the wall. While millions of people play pool, not nearly that many want to watch it which is how professional sports get their money either directly from ticket sales and TV deals or indirectly through selling advertising.

So with no money from sponsors, advertising, ticket-buying people, how is a professional pool tour supposed to survive?

Well then what else can we call groing the sport of pool if NOT a professional organization.

The issue is exactly what you said, none of the league players are interested in the game enough to watch it or pay for it, therefore the leagues do not grow pool aside from having more players play in it. Which was my other point when I said it was like saying illegal immegrents are increasing the population of the US, more bodies but no benefit to the overall health of the economy or social fabric. Who cares if the US gets a billion people living in it if half are mooching off the half that produces something. Same thing with leagues. Who cares if there are a million league player if none of them do anything outside of league. It's just empty numbers unless you are making money from the league. If all those players are bying equipment which is "good for the game" where are the huge money tournaments for pro players that those equipment manufacturers can pay for with the profits they make form the league players?

It's simple, league players don't go to pro events or watch tournaments, so those equipment sponsors don't have a benefit of advertizing, which means no need to add money to the tournaments which means leagues do not help the game overall outside of profits for the manufacturers and bars. It's a closed system, not even a circle really. More of a line with 3 dots. League Players --> Bars/Cue makers ---> League operators. And there it ends. Eventually the League does bring back some money to the league members through their finals.

But it's a closed system. If you look at the other sports, there are lines all over the place, players buy stuff, they go to pro events, they buy pro players signature lines of equipment, the makers of the equipment buy ads to sell to those players, the players watch TV events, Buick sells cars to those people, Bud sells beer to those people, people buy Bud, in turn Bud spends more money which goes to the overall sport organization to pay for pro players.

In pool we have none of that because the "league players" do not do anything with pool outside of league.

 

[krupa]

Well then what else can we call groing the sport of pool if NOT a professional organization.

The issue is exactly what you said, none of the league players are interested in the game enough to watch it or pay for it, therefore the leagues do not grow pool aside from having more players play in it. Which was my other point when I said it was like saying illegal immegrents are increasing the population of the US, more bodies but no benefit to the overall health of the economy or social fabric. Who cares if the US gets a billion people living in it if half are mooching off the half that produces something. Same thing with leagues. Who cares if there are a million league player if none of them do anything outside of league. It's just empty numbers unless you are making money from the league. If all those players are bying equipment which is "good for the game" where are the huge money tournaments for pro players that those equipment manufacturers can pay for with the profits they make form the league players?

It's simple, league players don't go to pro events or watch tournaments, so those equipment sponsors don't have a benefit of advertizing, which means no need to add money to the tournaments which means leagues do not help the game overall outside of profits for the manufacturers and bars. It's a closed system, not even a circle really. More of a line with 3 dots. League Players --> Bars/Cue makers ---> League operators. And there it ends. Eventually the League does bring back some money to the league members through their finals.

But it's a closed system. If you look at the other sports, there are lines all over the place, players buy stuff, they go to pro events, they buy pro players signature lines of equipment, the makers of the equipment buy ads to sell to those players, the players watch TV events, Buick sells cars to those people, Bud sells beer to those people, people buy Bud, in turn Bud spends more money which goes to the overall sport organization to pay for pro players.

In pool we have none of that because the "league players" do not do anything with pool outside of league.

You're blaming the customer (league players) for not buying a product (professional pool). You should be wondering what is wrong with your product that no one wants to buy it.

I'm also going to say that I don't see a problem with trying to grow interest in professional pool but in my opinion that's only going to happen by getting more people playing the game.

 

[Banks]

Whatever dude have your fun playing with bangers. Not my fault you got no heart.
If guys like you are the future of pool, its already dead.

Your response shows your complete lack of thought. Because I started playing on Valleys and play in a bar, you think, incorrectly, that you're something special. Quite the opposite, you're a detriment to the game. Guys like me are the future of pool, in spite of the horrible attitudes of people like you that talk like you can play. Have I missed something about how you've placed in a big tournament, or do you only keep saying how good you are?

I had a blast at the APA team event. My last session matching up finished somewhere around 9am, up $5k playing banks. What were you doing? That's right, pissing and moaning online. I brought Diamond tables to my neighborhood this year. What did you do? More pissing and moaning. I started an in-house BCA division. What did you do? Much more pissing and moaning.

Have a wonderful day.

Edit: Hey, Mr. Bigshot, aren't you going to post your challenge in the action room to SVB about taking the 6 and the breaks? No? Didn't think so.

 

[miscrewed89]

I will chime in one more time...
I know someone who is actively working on a way to offer more support to pool at the pro level while involving players from leagues. I don't know any specific details but it does involve raising league fees by $1, and the problem he is running into is the leagues don't mind raising the fees but they don't want to turn loose of that money. Hhmmm... big surprise...
He hasn't been extremely open about what he is doing. Maybe he will make some headway with them or he might be trying to start up his own league, I don't know.
I think the leagues (all of them, APA, BCA, NAPA etc.) could do more to support pro pool. At the amateur level American pool is alive and well and no matter what our personal opinion is about leagues, that is probably 99% due to the leagues. From what I've seen though, once a player reaches a certain level, he/she is no longer welcomed by the league. What should happen at that point is the league should bring them in as a (insert league name here) professional offering a salary and commissions for tournament prize money and merchandise sales. But instead that player just gets dumped and is forced to pursue pool at a pro level by hustling or finding an individual who is willing to support them. This has happened to a friend of mine. He received a letter from the APA giving him notification that he is no longer allowed to participate in APA events because he won so many they dubbed him a pro. That's ridiculous! How often does that happen? My guess is probably not a whole lot. They could have taken my friend and the half a dozen or so others and made them APA pros which would have tightened the gap between pros and amateurs. Instead, my friend now rarely plays pool. He works on cars and goes fishing. Occasionally he will come in the poolroom and have a couple beers and watch his brother play.
I think the APA and all other leagues are missing an opportunity with these players. Sure, the focus is to bring in newbies, but they've got to follow through with their players who advance to the level that most of us only dream about!

 

[justadub]

You're blaming the customer (league players) for not buying a product (professional pool). You should be wondering what is wrong with your product that no one wants to buy it.

I'm also going to say that I don't see a problem with trying to grow interest in professional pool but in my opinion that's only going to happen by getting more people playing the game.

This is it, in a nutshell.

You have a rather sizeable potential customer base (leagues) that participates in your business. And you expect them to come support you? Why? What are you selling them on, what is there to attract them to your product?

The leagues should definitely be "sold" on participating. Expecting them to do so on their own is silly. What is their incentive, their return on investment? "The good of the game"? Things in their part of the game are already good, and in most cases getting better.

Flip that around. Other than Mark Griffin and CSI recently, what has pro pool done to attract itself to that HUGE potential customer base? There is the problem. Pro pool hasn't given the average recreational player any reason to be interested in what they are doing.... And that's a shame.

I hope more happens like what Mark and CSI are trying to do. I hope other things develop, too. But to blame this on the leagues and their players is misguided.

 

[SmoothStroke]

http://www.bisbees.com/ Sorry, no hyperlink, check out the prize money

I love to play pool and love to fish. I prefer to not surround myself with pool players. I have also donated plenty of time to help and support pool, and still do so.

I participate in many fishing tourneys, at one time played 3 or 4 pool tourneys a week. I probably have not played a pool tourney in 10 years; don't care if I ever do, no interest, not worth my time.

Fishing and Pool are both boring to watch, the only time it is not boring is when I am doing it. The only reason I watch it is to study it.

Pool is nickel and dime stuff, lunch money, everyone trying to steal that nickel. Many people out for themselves, from players on up.

I think pool players should earn millions, I doubt they ever will, hope one day they will. They don't have money for a 10 K entry fee and would have to rely on major sponsors. Good luck getting Major Sponsors to put up big bucks into what is basically a cult sport, or game, and boring to watch for the general public.
To change history you must start with the youth, or drop a nuke and wipe out the existing dirt, start over, a clean slate.

Check out the link above, it is just one of many fishing trails around the world with millions of dollars involved. (Imagine, it's just fishing) that's the box I get in.

I am curious to what others think about the difference in prize money for fishing and pool. I have my opinion.

P.S. Put on your big boy pants and go play real pool. I would commit suicide if I played in any of those leagues.

Ask a league player who Thorsten Hohmann is, His answer might be… Is that a German Beer, Alright bro get me two.

 

[3RAILKICK]

http://www.bisbees.com/ Sorry, no hyperlink, check out the prize money

I love to play pool and love to fish. I prefer to not surround myself with pool players. I have also donated plenty of time to help and support pool, and still do so.

I participate in many fishing tourneys, at one time played 3 or 4 pool tourneys a week. I probably have not played a pool tourney in 10 years; don't care if I ever do, no interest, not worth my time.

Fishing and Pool are both boring to watch, the only time it is not boring is when I am doing it. The only reason I watch it is to study it.

Pool is nickel and dime stuff, lunch money, everyone trying to steal that nickel. Many people out for themselves, from players on up.

I think pool players should earn millions, I doubt they ever will, hope one day they will. They don't have money for a 10 K entry fee and would have to rely on major sponsors. Good luck getting Major Sponsors to put up big bucks into what is basically a cult sport, or game, and boring to watch for the general public.
To change history you must start with the youth, or drop a nuke and wipe out the existing dirt, start over, a clean slate.

Check out the link above, it is just one of many fishing trails around the world with millions of dollars involved. (Imagine, it's just fishing) that's the box I get in.

I am curious to what others think about the difference in prize money for fishing and pool. I have my opinion.

P.S. Put on your big boy pants and go play real pool. I would commit suicide if I played in any of those leagues.

Ask a league player who Thorsten Hohmann is, His answer might be… Is that a German Beer, Alright bro get me two.

Bisbee..esque tournament fishing is not 'just fishing' imho. lol

Was it a typo? Did you mean to write...'Imagine it's just fishing'?

1/2 day boats, and the sculpin and sandbass and barracuda and the 'boat ride'/'wind em up..lets work back and try to find a better spot'/'we'll keep the galley open on the ride back..take care of your tab' is a maybe a more apt description of 'just fishing'.

Do the reels cost more than many pro pool tournaments pay for first?

Nice recreation, if you can swing it.

Enjoy.

 

[buckshotshoey]

I've been to plenty of ball games. If I had to sit perfectly still and not make a sound, that number would be about 1. Pool's worst enemy is a boring environment.

That's why I love the Mosconi cup! Especially when played in Europe.
Not one boring moment.

 

[takeitdown]

Your response shows your complete lack of thought. Because I started playing on Valleys and play in a bar, you think, incorrectly, that you're something special. Quite the opposite, you're a detriment to the game. Guys like me are the future of pool, in spite of the horrible attitudes of people like you that talk like you can play. Have I missed something about how you've placed in a big tournament, or do you only keep saying how good you are?

I had a blast at the APA team event. My last session matching up finished somewhere around 9am, up $5k playing banks. What were you doing? That's right, pissing and moaning online. I brought Diamond tables to my neighborhood this year. What did you do? More pissing and moaning. I started an in-house BCA division. What did you do? Much more pissing and moaning.

Have a wonderful day.

Edit: Hey, Mr. Bigshot, aren't you going to post your challenge in the action room to SVB about taking the 6 and the breaks? No? Didn't think so.

I'd break you son. Don't kid yourself. Doesn't mean a thing if you won't bet money. I'm out there doing it. Guys like you with no heart make me laugh. Stay in the shallow end of the pool with your floaties.

 

[buckshotshoey]

I'd break you son. Don't kid yourself. Doesn't mean a thing if you won't bet money. I'm out there doing it. Guys like you with no heart make me laugh. Stay in the shallow end of the pool with your floaties.

No one else will say it, but I will.....YOU ARE ACTING LIKE A COMPLETE ASS! Your superiority complex makes me sick!

 

[NitPicker]

LOL! How much heart does it take to bet money on a favorite or a sure thing? Talks about playing real pool, but barks all day at league players. These posts reek of personal insecurities.

 

[Banks]

I'd break you son. Don't kid yourself. Doesn't mean a thing if you won't bet money. I'm out there doing it. Guys like you with no heart make me laugh. Stay in the shallow end of the pool with your floaties.

Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah.

All I'm hearing is talk.. from you. How about this..

Just a minute ago I was betting gajillions of dollars running fifty packs. Blah blah blah.

See what you sound like?

Prove something.

No heart? You're the guy talking like he does something.

Oh, and the only thing you'd break is a piggy bank.