Been out of the loop for a decade. Need debriefing!

[WRCues]

Hello everyone, my name is Joel and I'm new here.

I am new to the forum and need help. A little over ten years ago I set down my cue and turned off my lathe. For me pool was a consuming obsession. Like some people who are addicted to cigarettes, I could not "have just one" and be okay. I owned a BBQ restaurant and bar as well as a motorcycle/car repair shop and was neglecting my businesses to spend time in the basement on the pool table or at the lathe. Like any addiction it came to a point where I had to choose and I made the responsible choice and walked away from pool. It was a hard but necessary decision and I made it knowing that some day I would have time to enjoy it again.

Ten years later:

I sold my BBQ joint and closed down my shop, got a part time job, grabbed my cue and ran to the pool hall.

It was like I never left. Except my glasses are a little thicker and the kids I gave lessons to years back now whipped me mercilessly while calling me "Greybush" ( I hope they are just assuming things based on my new hair color.) And everyone is playing with something called an LD shaft, on BLUE cloth, with a clear plastic paper thin rack, breaking softly and alternating breaks regardless of who won the game.

I think all of the changes are for the better. The blue cloth is easier on the eyes, the Magic Racks keep the racks consistent, and the alternate breaks give a guy in a slump a chance to get out of the chair. And as far as the LD shafts..... I am in love. After trying my friends cue with an LD shaft I ran right to a local cue maker (a large cue company) to get a couple made for my cue. $550. I said "no I don't want a cue, just a couple of shafts" Well, that's what 2 LD shafts cost. Nope. can't do it.

But I REALLY like them.

My cue equipment (mostly Hightower machines) is long gone. Some was sold off, some was gifted to a young aspiring cuemaker years ago. I do have an old Atlas 10" lathe that I used in my repair shop for making parts for old Harleys. I got that out, cleaned it up, and made a list of items and parts I need to outfit it for cue making. ( I am going to contact Chris Hightower to see if he has parts to convert this lathe. Chris if you are reading this please post a reply.) I have a pile of Hard Maple boards that something told me to hang on to, a planer, a router table, a band saw, and a drill press.
Through research and investigation I have found out basic construction principles, but could really use some advice on how to build these shafts as well as the theories that cuemakers have about which designs work the best.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks to all who lend a hand! - Joel

 

[Renegade_56]

so you are going to rebuild a lathe to make yourself 2 LD shafts?

I don't know who you talked to but the price seems a bit high.

Why not just buy one to see what you like and then get another later?

 

[WRCues]

Renegade, Reading my post again, I would agree that it seems kind of ridiculous. I didn't expound on my intentions. There is no one in my immediate area that does cue repair and I will start doing that. As of now people wanting decent repairs done have to travel about 40 miles to a cue maker. Also, I loved making cues. I sold some but it was mostly a hobby. I imagine I will do some building again. I was a 2 cue a month guy at best. Who knows, maybe, now that I have more available time I'll do more.

 

[galipeau]

Welcome to the forum!

I don't know that Hightower's machines will be compatible with your Atlas lathe, but Chris would know best. I would suggest using the search function in this forum as much as you can, and looking at Bob Dzuricky (DZ cues) website. He has a lot of information on cuebuilding. Hope this helps.

Best, Ian

 

[JoeyInCali]

That two LD shafts might cost you a lot more .

You wanna put a taper bar on that Atlas lathe?
You're gonna need a router holder , a router, some bits and a dust collector .
You're gonna need maple boards or dowels .

You sure you wanna go on with this ?
Nobody I know went to make cues to save money.

And if you're going to get on the LD shaft business, it's gonna be tough .

 

[WRCues]

Yes those would be an expensive two shafts. I need more than that though. I have three cues that I would like at least two shafts a piece for. Also I love working on and making cues. I have no delusions about trying to be a full time cuemaker. I just want to fix some cues and build stuff for myself and some friends. Out of all the cues I ever made only about 1 in 3 was sold all the others were given as gifts or to local charities to be raffled off as fundraisers. I blame my love of pool for helping me earn a 4 year Bachelor's degree in just under 7 years and I love making and working on cues about as much as using them. I want to be able to make a good playing shaft, so I am looking to skip over all the experimentation, stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before me and make a good shaft based on the info from others. I know that the cues are laminated, how do you get the wedges made? Router table? What are the dimensions of the hole bored out in the tip end and what is it filled with? Recommendations on ferrule size, material, and construction? I had thought about using layers of thin H Maple, laminating them into a thin plywood then wedging them on a router, then gluing them into a shaft turning square. Would that work? What is the common taper used on shafts now? It seems as though people are bridging farther from the object ball. If that is not my imagination does it necessitate a longer pro taper? Sorry for all the questions but I have been under a proverbial rock for quite a while. Thanks, Joel

 

[WRCues]

Here are three cues that I made and have kept over the years. - Joel

 

[galipeau]

I want to be able to make a good playing shaft, so I am looking to skip over all the experimentation, stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before me and make a good shaft based on the info from othersGood luck with that. I know that the cues are laminated, how do you get the wedges made? Router table? What are the dimensions of the hole bored out in the tip end and what is it filled with?sometimes foam, sometimes balsa wood, sometimes nothing, sometimes many things Recommendations on ferrule size, material, and construction?try hitting a couple balls with no ferrule, just a tip on a pad straight on the wood. many LD shafts use isoplast, laminated wood, and other materials for ferrules I had thought about using layers of thin H Maple, laminating them into a thin plywood then wedging them on a router, then gluing them into a shaft turning square. Would that work?might be easier to buy laminated shaft stock instead... if you really want to go that way What is the common taper used on shafts now? It seems as though people are bridging farther from the object ball. If that is not my imagination does it necessitate a longer pro taper?IMO, this is a subjective and personal thing that varies too much person to person. build what you like, and what you find works Sorry for all the questions but I have been under a proverbial rock for quite a while. Thanks, Joel

Hope this helps, but I'm no professional expert on LD shafts, so take everything with a grain of salt. I thought i'd just share what I've learned and read. Again, there are pages and pages of opinions on ld shafts, and specifically how they work, how they are constructed, etc. I'm sure you will find the older threads on this subject enlightening. BTW, those cues you posted above look nice.

 

[scdiveteam]

Call Royce and order two shafts.

There is a lot that goes into building shafts concerning getting all the bugs out. It takes years.

Rick

 

[Canadian cue]

Low deflection doesn't necessarily mean laminated, try modifying a solid maple shaft first. The name of the game is to make the end of the shaft light. Experiment and figure out how YOU want to do that. Boring a hole, thin and short ferrule, small diameter tip are all ways of doing it and most LD shafts are a combination of all these things.

 

[bdcues]

Yes those would be an expensive two shafts. I need more than that though. I have three cues that I would like at least two shafts a piece for. Also I love working on and making cues. I have no delusions about trying to be a full time cuemaker. I just want to fix some cues and build stuff for myself and some friends. Out of all the cues I ever made only about 1 in 3 was sold all the others were given as gifts or to local charities to be raffled off as fundraisers. I blame my love of pool for helping me earn a 4 year Bachelor's degree in just under 7 years and I love making and working on cues about as much as using them. I want to be able to make a good playing shaft, so I am looking to skip over all the experimentation, stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before me and make a good shaft based on the info from others. I know that the cues are laminated, how do you get the wedges made? Router table? What are the dimensions of the hole bored out in the tip end and what is it filled with? Recommendations on ferrule size, material, and construction? I had thought about using layers of thin H Maple, laminating them into a thin plywood then wedging them on a router, then gluing them into a shaft turning square. Would that work? What is the common taper used on shafts now? It seems as though people are bridging farther from the object ball. If that is not my imagination does it necessitate a longer pro taper? Sorry for all the questions but I have been under a proverbial rock for quite a while. Thanks, Joel

Not looking to start a fight but is this how you went about starting your BBQ business? Did you post on a restaurant thread asking successful BBQ owners what their best recipes were and how they prepared the meat? I would assume not. I would assume that you went through some process to figure out the best way for you to take the necessary steps to make the best product you could. There are plenty of threads out there talking about high (LD) deflection shafts and the general ideas about the shafts can be had by spending some time looking. And one can certainly order shafts from the makers, including myself, deconstruct them, and figure out what all went into the products that people have put hundreds of hours and considerable sums of money into figuring out themselves. What you might not find out is why some things are the way they are as you have done no experimentation on your own.

 

[Mcues]

Search on the web for the answers to all your basic questions then decide for yourself what is right and go forward and start your project. When you need help with specific technical problems come back. The boys will help if you don't want egg in your beer or rock lifting.

Mario

 

[Thomas Wayne]

As with most problems, the answer the problem might very well be found within the problem itself:

[...]
My cue equipment (mostly Hightower machines) is long gone. Some was sold off, some was gifted to a young aspiring cuemaker years ago. [...]

Forget hacking together some shafts using equipment you happen to have that is inadequate for the task at hand. Instead, contact the "young aspiring cuemaker" who was the beneficiary of your generous gift and ask him to repay the favor by fulfilling a rather simple request....

Of course if he never moved forward with cuemaking then you can forget it. But trying to learn to build a bunch of LD shafts without the correct equipment and without a full understanding of the processes WILL be exciting (probably).

Good luck.

TW

 

[GBCues]

As with most problems, the answer the problem might very well be found within the problem itself:



Forget hacking together some shafts using equipment you happen to have that is inadequate for the task at hand. Instead, contact the "young aspiring cuemaker" who was the beneficiary of your generous gift and ask him to repay the favor by fulfilling a rather simple request....

Of course if he never moved forward with cuemaking then you can forget it. But trying to learn to build a bunch of LD shafts without the correct equipment and without a full understanding of the processes WILL be exciting (probably).

Good luck.

TW

Heck, if he never moved forward, then ask for the lathe back!
:smile:
Gary

 

[WRCues]

Not looking to start a fight but is this how you went about starting your BBQ business? Did you post on a restaurant thread asking successful BBQ owners what their best recipes were and how they prepared the meat? I would assume not. I would assume that you went through some process to figure out the best way for you to take the necessary steps to make the best product you could. There are plenty of threads out there talking about high (LD) deflection shafts and the general ideas about the shafts can be had by spending some time looking. And one can certainly order shafts from the makers, including myself, deconstruct them, and figure out what all went into the products that people have put hundreds of hours and considerable sums of money into figuring out themselves. What you might not find out is why some things are the way they are as you have done no experimentation on your own.

For someone "not looking to start a fight" You sure came across as on the attack. Let's just start by saying that I learned how to cook by doing it my whole life and in doing that I realized that it takes experience and knowledge to execute something correctly. even with great directions (recipe). Maybe I gave the wrong impression. I only wanted to know the basic construction principles of an LD shaft. Nothing more than could be gained by slicing one down the middle on a band saw. I am amazed at the wide gap between gracious answers and ones that are frankly kind of aggressive. In regards to your reference to my BBQ business: I have always been forthcoming in helping those who want to cook ribs the way we did. I gave out my recipes plenty of times. One, they still had to DO IT CORRECTLY. Two, THEY NEVER GOT IT TO TURN OUT THE SAME. I have even gone to a customers house and helped cook for a family gathering. The guy and his family still came and ate at my place every week just like before. If you are reluctant to explain particulars, I understand. If you are scared to tell even basic construction principles then I am concerned that you think ANYONE can do what it is you are doing. I do feel very sorry for you that after all that time, effort and expense that you must have gone through to make you so aggressively guard your secrets like a starving dog guarding a bone, you are still so insecure about your abilities. But please know that I don't want to start a fight.

 

[WRCues]

Low deflection doesn't necessarily mean laminated, try modifying a solid maple shaft first. The name of the game is to make the end of the shaft light. Experiment and figure out how YOU want to do that. Boring a hole, thin and short ferrule, small diameter tip are all ways of doing it and most LD shafts are a combination of all these things.

Thank you. This is the info I am after. - Joel

 

[WRCues]

Hope this helps, but I'm no professional expert on LD shafts, so take everything with a grain of salt. I thought i'd just share what I've learned and read. Again, there are pages and pages of opinions on ld shafts, and specifically how they work, how they are constructed, etc. I'm sure you will find the older threads on this subject enlightening. BTW, those cues you posted above look nice.

Thanks for the info and the compliment on the cues, - Joel
p.s. I just drove up your way last week. It's beautiful in Alberta. Calgary was just another big city, but the country around it was gorgeous.

 

[cueman]

Hello everyone, my name is Joel and I'm new here.

I am new to the forum and need help. A little over ten years ago I set down my cue and turned off my lathe. For me pool was a consuming obsession. Like some people who are addicted to cigarettes, I could not "have just one" and be okay. I owned a BBQ restaurant and bar as well as a motorcycle/car repair shop and was neglecting my businesses to spend time in the basement on the pool table or at the lathe. Like any addiction it came to a point where I had to choose and I made the responsible choice and walked away from pool. It was a hard but necessary decision and I made it knowing that some day I would have time to enjoy it again.

Ten years later:

I sold my BBQ joint and closed down my shop, got a part time job, grabbed my cue and ran to the pool hall.

It was like I never left. Except my glasses are a little thicker and the kids I gave lessons to years back now whipped me mercilessly while calling me "Greybush" ( I hope they are just assuming things based on my new hair color.) And everyone is playing with something called an LD shaft, on BLUE cloth, with a clear plastic paper thin rack, breaking softly and alternating breaks regardless of who won the game.

I think all of the changes are for the better. The blue cloth is easier on the eyes, the Magic Racks keep the racks consistent, and the alternate breaks give a guy in a slump a chance to get out of the chair. And as far as the LD shafts..... I am in love. After trying my friends cue with an LD shaft I ran right to a local cue maker (a large cue company) to get a couple made for my cue. $550. I said "no I don't want a cue, just a couple of shafts" Well, that's what 2 LD shafts cost. Nope. can't do it.

But I REALLY like them.

My cue equipment (mostly Hightower machines) is long gone. Some was sold off, some was gifted to a young aspiring cuemaker years ago. I do have an old Atlas 10" lathe that I used in my repair shop for making parts for old Harleys. I got that out, cleaned it up, and made a list of items and parts I need to outfit it for cue making. ( I am going to contact Chris Hightower to see if he has parts to convert this lathe. Chris if you are reading this please post a reply.) I have a pile of Hard Maple boards that something told me to hang on to, a planer, a router table, a band saw, and a drill press.
Through research and investigation I have found out basic construction principles, but could really use some advice on how to build these shafts as well as the theories that cuemakers have about which designs work the best.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks to all who lend a hand! - Joel

I built cues on an Atlas 10" 25 years ago so I know a little about how to convert one. It would be a lot cheaper to have a couple of LD shafts made unless you want to get back into this on an on going basis.

 

[WRCues]

I built cues on an Atlas 10" 25 years ago so I know a little about how to convert one. It owuld be a lot cheaper to have a couple of LD shafts made unless you want to get back into this on an on going basis.

Chris, I own two of these lathes, both 54". One is a standard and one is a quick change. My immediate concern is setting one up for tapering and one for repairs. I realize that the smaller spindle bore will necessitate the need for a steady rest with bearing/collet setup. I am working on that now. I actually have a steady rest from a Cuesmith and thought of pulling the bearing out of that since that would be the size of the collets I'll have to buy, I thought maybe grind a groove into the outer bearing to keep it steady and centered on the steady rest fingers. What would you suggest there? As far as taper bars go I figured to mount them on a bracket welded to the metal stand but need to know what you suggest for a spring tension/ roller bearing setup for the cross feed on the carriage. As far as the router mounting goes I have a quick change toolpost on the primary lathe and thought I could use a mount system like the one on the Cuesmith. I remember that being very user friendly. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I know that what I am doing sounds ridiculous to some as evidenced by the replies I have gotten, but for me I get as much joy and satisfaction out of making the cues as I do playing with them. These old lathes are not ideal for making cues, I know that. When the time comes that I want to move past shafts and repairs and build cues from scratch I will inevitably wind up buying a a purpose built lathe and inlay machine. Thanks for any and all help. - Joel

 

[bdcues]

For someone "not looking to start a fight" You sure came across as on the attack. Let's just start by saying that I learned how to cook by doing it my whole life and in doing that I realized that it takes experience and knowledge to execute something correctly. even with great directions (recipe). Maybe I gave the wrong impression. I only wanted to know the basic construction principles of an LD shaft. Nothing more than could be gained by slicing one down the middle on a band saw. I am amazed at the wide gap between gracious answers and ones that are frankly kind of aggressive. In regards to your reference to my BBQ business: I have always been forthcoming in helping those who want to cook ribs the way we did. I gave out my recipes plenty of times. One, they still had to DO IT CORRECTLY. Two, THEY NEVER GOT IT TO TURN OUT THE SAME. I have even gone to a customers house and helped cook for a family gathering. The guy and his family still came and ate at my place every week just like before. If you are reluctant to explain particulars, I understand. If you are scared to tell even basic construction principles then I am concerned that you think ANYONE can do what it is you are doing. I do feel very sorry for you that after all that time, effort and expense that you must have gone through to make you so aggressively guard your secrets like a starving dog guarding a bone, you are still so insecure about your abilities. But please know that I don't want to start a fight.

thanks for taking it in the light it was meant. :shakehead:
As for aggressively guarding my secrets... I stated that you could buy shafts from any one of the makers and deconstruct them. There is no standard construction principle regarding making laminated LD shafts. They have been made with 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 12 pieces and with flat lam and flat lam dowels.. all of which work. You said you had done some basic looking into what makes LD. That basic is end mass or lack of it. Simple. How you do this varies from maker to maker based on their idea of what the best system is. This was learned from experimentation. As with most things regarding cues there is more than one way to skin a cat. How you do it depends on the depth of your knowledge and the tools you have available or those you can build/buy. Triangles can be made quite simply on a table saw without reinventing the wheel.
Insecure... not. Willing to expound on what I understand about LD... to a point. Tolerance for those who seem to want all the information handed to them... limited. So excuse me if I did not take your original, or more particularly your post spelling out your questions and wanting to stand on the shoulders of those that have put in the time and money to understand LD in the light that they were meant. And if you think this is fighting than be prepared for some black eyes from this forum. You asked about LD and got one response from a maker of those, me. If you had asked the same thing, in the same way, about making cues you would have received a number of responses similar to mine from the cue making crowd around here, including "buy a book or tapes" as, as you stated, even with the basic knowledge of something your results may vary. And if you have a specific question, one that does not start out with "what is the best - " you might be surprised at the answers you receive.