Pool league rant kinda.....

tksix

tksix

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The more leagues I play, the more frustrating they become. Here is the scenario:

team A is highly ranked in the league with high handicaps (rightfully so) team B is much lower with low handicaps. Team A has players on it, but league guys who play in a few tourneys a year. Team B is just league players, but they play smart and can put balls together.

The handicap is so high, that you can win your games and the team still loses, or win all but 1 of your games and the team loses.

POINTS: Great for team B, they played smart enough to win rounds which is good. However one on one in a set, they would never be victorious.

As for team A, what are they gaining?! This is my struggle......a player goes 6-0 with one break and run, grinds out the other matches and wins them, but the team loses. It is a bummer of night.

I guess after typing this non-sense, I realize that the handicap (the hardest thing in the world to get right) generally favors the weaker players, and there really is no upside for the better players.

Mike
 
And this is why I thank the good Lord every day that I have a scratch league to play in.
 
That's why our informal league plays simple handicaps like games on the wire, 7 or 8 and out, remove a ball in 8-ball, etc.

The handicaps give the lower ranked player a chance of winning, but if the higher ranked player plays up to speed, he'll still win.
 
SCRATCH LEAGUE!!!! Yes, I ran a very successful scratch league years ago.......................unfortunately there is no one around who wants any part of that...........
 
tksix said:
The more leagues I play, the more frustrating they become. Here is the scenario:



team A is highly ranked in the league with high handicaps (rightfully so) team B is much lower with low handicaps. Team A has players on it, but league guys who play in a few tourneys a year. Team B is just league players, but they play smart and can put balls together.



The handicap is so high, that you can win your games and the team still loses, or win all but 1 of your games and the team loses.



POINTS: Great for team B, they played smart enough to win rounds which is good. However one on one in a set, they would never be victorious.



As for team A, what are they gaining?! This is my struggle......a player goes 6-0 with one break and run, grinds out the other matches and wins them, but the team loses. It is a bummer of night.



I guess after typing this non-sense, I realize that the handicap (the hardest thing in the world to get right) generally favors the weaker players, and there really is no upside for the better players.



Mike
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No upside for the better player?? I disagree. The better player and team gets the thrill of a challenge!

Like you said, an even match between them would be boring.

With a handicap it can go either way, both sides have to bring the best of what they got.
 
tksix said:
The more leagues I play, the more frustrating they become. Here is the scenario:

team A is highly ranked in the league with high handicaps (rightfully so) team B is much lower with low handicaps. Team A has players on it, but league guys who play in a few tourneys a year. Team B is just league players, but they play smart and can put balls together.

The handicap is so high, that you can win your games and the team still loses, or win all but 1 of your games and the team loses.

POINTS: Great for team B, they played smart enough to win rounds which is good. However one on one in a set, they would never be victorious.

As for team A, what are they gaining?! This is my struggle......a player goes 6-0 with one break and run, grinds out the other matches and wins them, but the team loses. It is a bummer of night.

I guess after typing this non-sense, I realize that the handicap (the hardest thing in the world to get right) generally favors the weaker players, and there really is no upside for the better players.

Mike
Click to expand...

seen that in the league i played in ... If you stack your team you better play like a stacked team every week. From my experience the stacked teams no matter how many points they give up, they still finish first or second...im just saying
 
tksix said:
The more leagues I play, the more frustrating they become. Here is the scenario:

team A is highly ranked in the league with high handicaps (rightfully so) team B is much lower with low handicaps. Team A has players on it, but league guys who play in a few tourneys a year. Team B is just league players, but they play smart and can put balls together.

The handicap is so high, that you can win your games and the team still loses, or win all but 1 of your games and the team loses.

POINTS: Great for team B, they played smart enough to win rounds which is good. However one on one in a set, they would never be victorious.

As for team A, what are they gaining?! This is my struggle......a player goes 6-0 with one break and run, grinds out the other matches and wins them, but the team loses. It is a bummer of night.

I guess after typing this non-sense, I realize that the handicap (the hardest thing in the world to get right) generally favors the weaker players, and there really is no upside for the better players.

Mike
Click to expand...

This sounds like a problem with this specific league; how is it that you can win all your games (or all but one) but still lose the match? That doesn't make sense to me at all... I mean, I can come up with a system where that happens, but then I'd laugh at the ridiculousness of it and come up with something else.
 
I've never met Mike Sigel nor have I playing in one of his leagues but based on the explanation I saw him give of his ball in hand handicap systems I really believe that is a major improvement over other handicap systems.

I have a feeling if more leagues around the country would switch to Mike's league it would become very popular and leagues like the APA would be in trouble.
 
ACS League 8-ball. Format is 17 point system. 5 man team. team A giving up 12 points a round.

I miss spoke, if we won all games every round 10-7 we would win the round, however lose one game and no run outs, hard to win.
 
As has been said, in general expect the better player to still prevail despite the handicaps. This is partly due to the difficulty of handicapping the games (particularly 8 ball) and partly due to the enormous variance that makes up the skill levels of the average league. Handicapping a player that can run out a significant amount with someone who can't run three balls is very tough! The best the handicap systems can really hope for is to bridge the gap between players who aren't that far off, anyhow.

It is the fact that it is so hard to handicap divergent players that leads to the idea the weaker player has the best of it. It's not that they really do, but the impact it makes that sticks with you. You simply remember those circumstances more.
 
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tksix said:
ACS League 8-ball. Format is 17 point system. 5 man team. team A giving up 12 points a round.

I miss spoke, if we won all games every round 10-7 we would win the round, however lose one game and no run outs, hard to win.
Click to expand...

I understand your frustration.

For what it's worth, there are better systems out there. I currently play NAPA and really like it. I have played APA but greatly prefer NAPA.
 
tksix said:
ACS League 8-ball. Format is 17 point system. 5 man team. team A giving up 12 points a round.

I miss spoke, if we won all games every round 10-7 we would win the round, however lose one game and no run outs, hard to win.
Click to expand...

Sigel's handicap system is based on the number of times a player gets ball in hand. A really poor player would get ball in hand several times. A really good player would never get ball in hand.
 
tksix said:
ACS League 8-ball. Format is 17 point system. 5 man team. team A giving up 12 points a round.

I miss spoke, if we won all games every round 10-7 we would win the round, however lose one game and no run outs, hard to win.
Click to expand...

It may be more strategy than handicaps that is the case. Ball count leagues are completely different than leagues that count games. APA 9 ball is an example, since more people are familiar with that example. Every ball is worth 1 pt, except the 9 ball which is worth 2, for a potential total of 10 pts per rack.

It's fairly common to have this type of thread for APA 9 ball because APA 9 ball isn't 9 ball at all. It's not about how many racks you win, it's about how many more points you score than the other guy. A decent league shooter playing normal 9 ball can easily let a lesser player at the table knowing he can't run out. But in a ball count game, even letting a player only run 3 or 4 balls a rack may be too many to overcome a handicap.

In an 8 ball league that counts balls pocketed one has to be especially careful. A very common way for league level games to go is for one player to shoot himself into one ball hell only to lose the game. It's often advantageous at the league level to see your opponent run a lot of balls, especially on congested bar tables. In a ball count league, however, you must put more weight on controlling the table. If you have a great runout, then do so, but the kind of tougher shots that don't cost you racks if you miss as the better player in a game count league can cost you valuable balls in a ball count league.
 
alstl said:
Sigel's handicap system is based on the number of times a player gets ball in hand. A really poor player would get ball in hand several times. A really good player would never get ball in hand.
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Do you know how handicaps are adjusted in that league?

In NAPA your handicap goes up and down every week based on whether you win or lose, so the only way to sandbag is to lose your match.
 
not sure how it is adjusted................but no way am I suggesting team B was sand-bagging. Not my point at all here. Also, I give them credit, they won more rounds then team A.

My point is, that the league handicapping (the way this league is set up)....really does nothing for the confidence of the better player. On a personal level, having an average or slightly above average night and your team loses, is a downer.

It seems as though in this system, if the better players "team" shoots their handicap, they have a hard time winning. On the other hand, if the lesser players team shoots 1 ball better than their handicap, they are almost a definite winner!!
 
Most league systems are set up so each team has a 50/50 shot at winning. If handicaps aren't evened out then teams would be stacked. So say team A has a handicap of 200 and team B 150. Without making it even team B would most likely have no chance of winning. Without making it even there may not be a team B because they know they could not compete in the league. I try not to pay attention to the numbers and just play. Plus in all handicapped systems where its head to head there are always games or balls being spotted based on handicaps. So its really the same thing,just being done for entire team from the start.
 
I really dislike playing weak teams in league. I'm not happy if I win, and I'm really ticked off if I lose. You end up not trying because you know they can't run balls so you'll be back to the table anyway. It's just no fun. You end up not playing your best, and it's no fun.

On the other hand, I feel that the handicap is what makes it challenging. You have to be careful because you can't get careless and lose even a single game.
 
tksix said:
The more leagues I play, the more frustrating they become. Here is the scenario:

team A is highly ranked in the league with high handicaps (rightfully so) team B is much lower with low handicaps. Team A has players on it, but league guys who play in a few tourneys a year. Team B is just league players, but they play smart and can put balls together.

The handicap is so high, that you can win your games and the team still loses, or win all but 1 of your games and the team loses.

POINTS: Great for team B, they played smart enough to win rounds which is good. However one on one in a set, they would never be victorious.

As for team A, what are they gaining?! This is my struggle......a player goes 6-0 with one break and run, grinds out the other matches and wins them, but the team loses. It is a bummer of night.

I guess after typing this non-sense, I realize that the handicap (the hardest thing in the world to get right) generally favors the weaker players, and there really is no upside for the better players.

Mike
Click to expand...

i know your pain quite well. been there more than once.a few years ago i put together a pretty strong team in a points based money league. we started out in 1st place after the 1st week and never looked back. we stayed in 1st until the finals. we were spotting the 4th place team 60 points and lost by 90 iirc. funny how those guys could not make 3 balls in a row all session long but come finals could run racks.

2nd session we had the exact same situation occur again so we said frig it and quit.

last year i put together another team and joined that league again. same crap happened again 2 sessions in a row so we folded that team also.

this year a friend of mine coerced me into joining his team in a different money league. so far i have not seen the rampant sandbagging that occured in that other league.

some people would rather have a few bucks in their pocket instead of integrity.
 
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