My apologies to Dr. Dave

S

(((Satori)))

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not too long ago there was a thread discussing throw and he said draw did not increase throw.

I had the nerve to question him (stupid right). I swore though that I had to hit a tad bit thicker when I used draw. Well it turns out we were both right. I do have to cut a bit thicker when using draw but my error in thinking was I concluded the draw must be throwing the ball (like using outside english) after reading up on this I have found out that the draw doesn't create spin induced throw but instead reduces cut induced throw. So Dave, of course, was right... draw does not increase throw.


Thanks Dave for sharing all of your knowledge. You really are the man.


Edited to add the thread I'm referring to. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=369922
 
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Never question a man of science...or a crazy man that makes cases.

Weird-Science-robert-downey-jr-34568357-1287-701.png
 
Yep, thanks to Dr Dave for all of the great work, it is a ton of information to precess and learn.
I feel more confident with my aiming when using draw, you just have to think about what the CB is doing at the time of contact.
 
(((Satori))) said:
Not too long ago there was a thread discussing throw and he said draw did not increase throw.

I had the nerve to question him (stupid right). I swore though that I had to hit a tad bit thicker when I used draw. Well it turns out we were both right. I do have to cut a bit thicker when using draw but my error in thinking was I concluded the draw must be throwing the ball (like using outside english) after reading up on this I have found out that the draw doesn't create spin induced throw but instead reduces cut induced throw. So Dave, of course, was right... draw does not increase throw.


Thanks Dave for sharing all of your knowledge. You really are the man.


Edited to add the thread I'm referring to. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=369922
Click to expand...
Thank you for the follow up. I'm glad you were able to convince yourself. Both topspin and bottom spin reduce cut-induced throw, as compared to throw from a stun shot of the same speed. For those interested, the proof can be found here:
cut-induced-throw draw and follow effects

Therefore, you do need to aim a little thicker with a draw shot as compared to a stun shot (where you need to aim thinner to compensate for the larger throw).

Now, with slower draw shots, some or much of the backspin wears off due to drag on the way to the OB, and the resulting throw could be quite large (due to the slow speed and near stun and impact). Therefore, on some draw shots, you need to aim thinner than you might expect. Throw is maximum for slow stun shots close to a 1/2-ball hit (see maximum throw).

Throw is a complicated thing. Luckily, it is small enough to ignore with many shots, especially with pockets that aren't very "tight."

Catch you later,
Dave
 
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9intheside said:
Yep, thanks to Dr Dave for all of the great work, it is a ton of information to precess and learn.
Click to expand...
Thanks.

9intheside said:
I feel more confident with my aiming when using draw, you just have to think about what the CB is doing at the time of contact.
Click to expand...
Some people are more accurate and consistent with draw shots because a draw shot typically involves a firmer stroke with better acceleration and follow through. For most people, this type of stroke will be better than a slower or hesitant stroke with less follow through.

Regards,
Dave
 
(((Satori))) said:
Not too long ago there was a thread discussing throw and he said draw did not increase throw.

I had the nerve to question him (stupid right). I swore though that I had to hit a tad bit thicker when I used draw. Well it turns out we were both right. I do have to cut a bit thicker when using draw but my error in thinking was I concluded the draw must be throwing the ball (like using outside english) after reading up on this I have found out that the draw doesn't create spin induced throw but instead reduces cut induced throw. So Dave, of course, was right... draw does not increase throw.


Thanks Dave for sharing all of your knowledge. You really are the man.


Edited to add the thread I'm referring to. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=369922
Click to expand...

No throw for ob if you hit cb with power draw or power follow. If you did' cb would have been too close to ob' or your stroke steered.
 
To demonstrate this visually, I'm attaching a throw chart for a firm 3/4 ball hit. The sliding shot, center of chart induces about 0.75 inches per yard undercutting throw relative to the draw and follow shots at the same speed.

Note that a touch if inside on a sliding ball induces more undercutting throw, while a touch of outside reduces it... but be careful not to overcut with too much Outside English. OE is more predictable when used with follow or draw.

Colin
 

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I put my home balls in the polisher once every week or two, as soon as they start to show dull spots I polish them. How much does this affect or should I say not affect cut/spin induced throw compared to a dirtier set of balls?
 
fastone371 said:
I put my home balls in the polisher once every week or two, as soon as they start to show dull spots I polish them. How much does this affect or should I say not affect cut/spin induced throw compared to a dirtier set of balls?
Click to expand...

Depends on what you polish them with. Dr. Dave recently had a video up on that subject, using different kinds of polish.
 
Dave, how would you adjust for the effects of follow/draw/throw/polish when using CTE?

I kid, I kid...

Awesome videos.
 
shinobi said:
Dave, how would you adjust for the effects of follow/draw/throw/polish when using CTE?

I kid, I kid...

Awesome videos.
Click to expand...

You may be kidding but what you say is true.

CTE can not objectively make someone to "the" line of the shot for this reason.

It is scientifically proven that many factors will throw an object ball off line even if you stay in the center of the cueball.

* how hard you shoot can affect the amount of throw
* how clean the balls are can affect the amount of throw
* what you clean the balls with can effect the amount of throw
* wether you use top, bottom, or stun can affect the amount of throw
* the friction of the cloth can affect the amount of throw

Even a small amount of throw can cause a big miss on long shots so any of the above factors will need to be factored in either consciously OR SUBCONSCIOUSLY because the contact point that leads to center pocket will change.

If the contact point changes then the line to the contact point must also change meaning there are no objective visuals along with a pivot that will take you to the line of a shot BASED ON THE POSITION OF THE BALLS ON THE TABLE.




I want to believe that Neil is not smart enough to know this because I know how important "a man's word" is to him and I would hate to think he is "giving his word" to a system that makes bogus claims. Unfortunately I feel as if he in fact does know the effects of throw and how throw makes it impossible to have an objective visual that will lead you to center pocket... no matter what the balls were cleaned with, how hard you shoot the shot, wether you used top or bottom... you get my point.
 
shinobi said:
Dave, how would you adjust for the effects of follow/draw/throw/polish when using CTE?

I kid, I kid...

Awesome videos.
Click to expand...
You may be kidding but what you say is true.

CTE can not objectively make someone to "the" line of the shot for this reason.

It is scientifically proven that many factors will throw an object ball off line even if you stay in the center of the cueball.

* how hard you shoot can affect the amount of throw
* how clean the balls are can affect the amount of throw
* what you clean the balls with can effect the amount of throw
* wether you use top, bottom, or stun can affect the amount of throw
* the friction of the cloth can affect the amount of throw

Even a small amount of throw can cause a big miss on long shots so any of the above factors will need to be factored in either consciously OR SUBCONSCIOUSLY because the contact point that leads to center pocket will change.

If the contact point changes then the line to the contact point must also change meaning there are no objective visuals along with a pivot that will take you to the line of a shot BASED ON THE POSITION OF THE BALLS ON THE TABLE.




I want to believe that Neil is not smart enough to know this because I know how important "a man's word" is to him and I would hate to think he is "giving his word" to a system that makes bogus claims. Unfortunately I feel as if he in fact does know the effects of throw and how throw makes it impossible to have an objective visual that will lead you to center pocket... no matter what the balls were cleaned with, how hard you shoot the shot, wether you used top or bottom... you get my point.
 
(((Satori))) said:
You may be kidding but what you say is true.

CTE can not objectively make someone to "the" line of the shot for this reason.

It is scientifically proven that many factors will throw an object ball off line even if you stay in the center of the cueball.

* how hard you shoot can affect the amount of throw
* how clean the balls are can affect the amount of throw
* what you clean the balls with can effect the amount of throw
* wether you use top, bottom, or stun can affect the amount of throw
* the friction of the cloth can affect the amount of throw

Even a small amount of throw can cause a big miss on long shots so any of the above factors will need to be factored in either consciously OR SUBCONSCIOUSLY because the contact point that leads to center pocket will change.

If the contact point changes then the line to the contact point must also change meaning there are no objective visuals along with a pivot that will take you to the line of a shot BASED ON THE POSITION OF THE BALLS ON THE TABLE.




I want to believe that Neil is not smart enough to know this because I know how important "a man's word" is to him and I would hate to think he is "giving his word" to a system that makes bogus claims. Unfortunately I feel as if he in fact does know the effects of throw and how throw makes it impossible to have an objective visual that will lead you to center pocket... no matter what the balls were cleaned with, how hard you shoot the shot, wether you used top or bottom... you get my point.
Click to expand...

How exactly does one adjust, consciously or subconsciously, to the factors in bold?
 
(((Satori))) said:
You need to read up on the power of the subconscious. In the mean time ask yourself how does one not adjust and consistently pocket balls?
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I'll answer your question with a question.

How do you know someone is making adjustments for throw based on the cleanliness of the balls? I've known great players in my life, and never met anyone that said, "I'll need to adjust where I hit this shot because the balls haven't been polished in a week."
 
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