John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

[CJ Wiley]

We humans experience the world through our senses

Take a look at Mike's diagrams. The side pocket shot shows the object ball closest to the left point but he is cutting to the left. If he aimed the object ball toward the side of the closest point and used inside english, he would most likely hit the nearest point with the object ball.

It is difficult to make words that cover everything and every situation. It is far easier to show it in person on a table.

I'm sure most of us know what is meant and it is all good. It's just funny to me that everyone is interpreting CJ's words and we keyboard champions still can't get it right but we want CJ to get it right.

(It's funny when you think about it).

The written word leaves much to interpretation. It's not uncommon to be required to explain the same technique in several different ways. We humans experience the world through our senses - one "channel" tends to be stronger, and therefore used more than the others in the learning process. This is essential for public speaker to know and understand.

Many pool players are visual, however, we still need to communicate in auditory and kinesthetic {learning} terms to reach the majority. Of course, if they have negative feelings or emotions about the topic or speaker it's useless to expect mental growth or expansion.

Even comedians know this, if the audience doesn't like them they are not going to be funny, no matter what they say or do. Bernie Madoff's stand up act would not be well received on Wall Street these days, although they may be popular in the penitentiary.

 

[ribdoner]

toi has it's place and in order to play at the top tier it must be part of a players arsenal, however, in order to master it untold thousands of balls must be hit

just another brick in the wall

(an exception would be Mike Segal who used outsde english the vast majority of the time)

 

[CJ Wiley]

He used a touch of outside to throw the ball slightly to prevent skidding.

toi has it's place and in order to play at the top tier it must be part of a players arsenal, however, in order to master it untold thousands of balls must be hit

just another brick in the wall

(an exception would be Mike Segal who used outsde english the vast majority of the time)

Mike Sigel didn't use outside english the vast majority of the time. He used a touch of outside to throw the ball slightly to prevent skidding. Mike didn't spin his cue ball any more than necessary, and his style is like mine, just targeting the other side of the cue ball. We've played many times, I know his game pretty well, and he certainly respects my style of play.

You should try the TOI technique, you might learn a thing or two......just a suggestion, don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Banks]

Mike Sigel didn't use outside english the vast majority of the time. He used a touch of outside

This is why some people have a problem with you. Wait.. let me rephrase.. they have a touch of issues with what you say. Either you don't understand what you're saying or you're trying your best to piss people off like a spoiled brat.

If you don't hit center, there is spin. Spin is english.

Any questions, just PM me.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Every shot has some spin, either side spin, over-spin or under-spin

This is why some people have a problem with you. Wait.. let me rephrase.. they have a touch of issues with what you say. Either you don't understand what you're saying or you're trying your best to piss people off like a spoiled brat.

If you don't hit center, there is spin. Spin is english.

Any questions, just PM me.

I've spent a great deal of time playing and hanging out with Mike Sigel.

Even if you hit "center ball," there is still spin, there's no such thing as a "knuckle ball" in pool. Every shot has some spin, either side spin, over-spin or under-spin (or a combination).

What Mike Sigel does is throw the balls in with a touch (small amount) of outside, he only puts noticeably spin on the ball when he's changing the angle off the rail, or intentionally curving the cue ball.

The TOI is used to counter after-contact-spin so the cue ball appears to float.

 

[CJ Wiley]

]CJ likes to post pool stuff on facebook atlarge, some of it is pretty interesting

CJ likes to post pool stuff on facebook atlarge, some of it is pretty interesting too. I have posted his stuff on az, word for word and watched some az member cut it all up not knowing it was from him, amusing

You can't be serious, I wonder what would happen if they knew it was from me?......that would be amusing.

 

[lfigueroa]

You wish to play a game of semantics with me.
Let me clarify: You have been told that your behavior toward CJ is unacceptable.
You continue the behavior that you have been warned for.

The next time will be permanent.

This isn't the second, the forth or even the tenth time I've spoken to you on this topic.

You've been given ample opportunity to resolve any difference you might have.

Mr. Wilson, of course you can do what you will.

But just taking a quick peek at recent posts in this thread, all Neil did was to point out CJ was picking at scabs, resurrecting an old thread, and (once again) shamelessly promoting himself with some over-the-top claims designed to get a rise out folks. If you consider how and what CJ did in bringing this thread back to life just to pat himself on the back, it's hard to make a case against Neil, or anyone else for that matter, for pointing that out. But of course it's your call.

BTW, if you're looking for someone to whack upside the head take a gander at the Main Forum and the long string of recent posts from Bill Smith, aka "mr3cushion."

Lou Figueroa

 

[Mitchxout]

Mike Sigel didn't use outside english the vast majority of the time. He used a touch of outside to throw the ball slightly to prevent skidding..

This is a:
Lie
Misunderstanding
Miscommunication
Salesmanship
Ego
Nonsense

C'mon CJ, Toi is a legitimate concept and I've learned plenty from your posts and dvd's(I bought some). But I know for a fact, Sigel used quite a bit more than a "touch" of outside on cut shots I started watching him as a kid in the 70's, in fact, I learned more from him than you, probably. Not to mention, when you played at your highest level, you were an outside English proponent. And not just a touch, either.

This reminds me of the hemp movement. I'm all for legalizing industrial hemp. However, they put out propaganda whose lies are as big as the anti hemp crowd.

Example, Henry Ford built a prototype car with hemp body panels. However, the hemp people want us to believe the original model T was made up of 90% hemp. Not true, of course, maybe they feel the need to balance the misinformation from the other side?

Yes, toi works. But stating untruths makes you less credible.

 

[duckie]

Remember, unless you use the sweet spot of a CB, a cue ball will slide before it rolls.

How far it slides depends on the the hit. The harder the hit, the more the CB slides before rolling.

This characteristic of slide then roll is how stun shots work and hitting center, even off center just a touch. This is what's happening from how TOI is being described as being applied to the CB.

I was practicing yesterday and thought how limiting it would be to use TOI on every shot.

There is a loss freedom in playing when you limit your self to one style of play. I could move the CB around the table and get the shape I wanted a a shot. Long draw shot, hard follows, use running English to get around corners. It was glorious.

But I'm just a banger

 

[Mitchxout]

this characteristic of slide then roll is how stun shots work and hitting center, even off center just a touch. This is what's happening from how TOI is being described as being applied to the CB.

You have to cut the ball more with stun. The toi allows for a fuller hit. Not the same.:nono:

 

[LAMas]

Remember, unless you use the sweet spot of a CB, a cue ball will slide before it rolls.

How far it slides depends on the the hit. The harder the hit, the more the CB slides before rolling.

This characteristic of slide then roll is how stun shots work and hitting center, even off center just a touch. This is what's happening from how TOI is being described as being applied to the CB.

I was practicing yesterday and thought how limiting it would be to use TOI on every shot.

There is a loss freedom in playing when you limit your self to one style of play. I could move the CB around the table and get the shape I wanted a a shot. Long draw shot, hard follows, use running English to get around corners. It was glorious.

But I'm just a banger

What shots were better using TOI?

 

[cfrandy]

Mr. Wilson, of course you can do what you will.

But just taking a quick peek at recent posts in this thread, all Neil did was to point out CJ was picking at scabs, resurrecting an old thread, and (once again) shamelessly promoting himself with some over-the-top claims designed to get a rise out folks. If you consider how and what CJ did in bringing this thread back to life just to pat himself on the back, it's hard to make a case against Neil, or anyone else for that matter, for pointing that out. But of course it's your call.

BTW, if you're looking for someone to whack upside the head take a gander at the Main Forum and the long string of recent posts from Bill Smith, aka "mr3cushion."

Lou Figueroa

Lou, do you really have to hijack someone's thread with this kind of BS. Please grow up or go somewhere else! :angry:

 

[cfrandy]

This is a:
Lie
Misunderstanding
Miscommunication
Salesmanship
Ego
Nonsense

C'mon CJ, Toi is a legitimate concept and I've learned plenty from your posts and dvd's(I bought some). But I know for a fact, Sigel used quite a bit more than a "touch" of outside on cut shots I started watching him as a kid in the 70's, in fact, I learned more from him than you, probably. Not to mention, when you played at your highest level, you were an outside English proponent. And not just a touch, either.

This reminds me of the hemp movement. I'm all for legalizing industrial hemp. However, they put out propaganda whose lies are as big as the anti hemp crowd.

Example, Henry Ford built a prototype car with hemp body panels. However, the hemp people want us to believe the original model T was made up of 90% hemp. Not true, of course, maybe they feel the need to balance the misinformation from the other side?

Yes, toi works. But stating untruths makes you less credible.

Just out of curiosity, how many times have YOU played against Mike Segal Mitch?

 

[cfrandy]

Remember, unless you use the sweet spot of a CB, a cue ball will slide before it rolls.

How far it slides depends on the the hit. The harder the hit, the more the CB slides before rolling.

This characteristic of slide then roll is how stun shots work and hitting center, even off center just a touch. This is what's happening from how TOI is being described as being applied to the CB.

I was practicing yesterday and thought how limiting it would be to use TOI on every shot.

There is a loss freedom in playing when you limit your self to one style of play. I could move the CB around the table and get the shape I wanted a a shot. Long draw shot, hard follows, use running English to get around corners. It was glorious.

But I'm just a banger

So you believe it is better to try and learn 20 different styles of play, rather then perfect one style? The problem with most shooters is they have so many styles they cannot possibly perfect one! The fact is, the more you must think about consciously...the less likely you will execute subconsciously!

 

[CJ Wiley]

I didn't disclose my TOI technique until a few years ago.

C'mon CJ, Toi is a legitimate concept and I've learned plenty from your posts and dvd's(I bought some). But I know for a fact, Sigel used quite a bit more than a "touch" of outside on cut shots I started watching him as a kid in the 70's, in fact, I learned more from him than you, probably. Not to mention, when you played at your highest level, you were an outside English proponent. And not just a touch, either.

.

I never was an outside english proponent, it's too unreliable playing in all the "road conditions". I didn't disclose my TOI technique until a few years ago.

The 70's was before I met Mike Sigel, it was almost 20 years later. I'll let everyone decide for themselves, here's match between Sigel and I - notice our cue balls react slightly different, however they don't spin any more than necessary.

 

[CJ Wiley]

it's important to have a solid foundation.

So you believe it is better to try and learn 20 different styles of play, rather then perfect one style? The problem with most shooters is they have so many styles they cannot possibly perfect one! The fact is, the more you must think about consciously...the less likely you will execute subconsciously!

Very good point, it's important to have a solid foundation.

"better to a master of one, than a "jack" of all".

 

[ENGLISH!]

I've used outside & inside english & throwing shots in & spinning the cue ball all around the table. It's fun & it's artful.

CJ's point from his experience is that he, with TOI will beat that type of player over a long race. The short race may be very competitive but in CJ's opinion from his experience that spinning type style wears down over the long run.

Earl Strickland made a comment in a TAR promo about why he went to a 70" cue when he played Shane in the race to 100 on the 10' table & he said that the shorter cue would break down over the length of that long of a race. He was not actually talking about the cue. He was talking about Him & His Game breaking down using the shorter 64" cue.

That's two fairly good pro players referring to a very similar thing.

If CJ has to go around the table with outside spin he certainly can. Just has Earl can certainly stun or kill a ball if he needs to do so.

They just play a different type of base game.

Even though I've played with spin for 45 years before CJ introducing TOI here a couple of years ago, I certainly see his point.

I think if one really thinks about it, it's sort of like someone said, 'Why work at getting shape when you already have it.'

TOI is not spin for the sake of throwing a ball in with spin & it's not the same as stun because of the squirt aspect to align with less alignments & add cut angle from the cue ball squirt aspect.

It works. It does take just a bit of getting use to it & dialing it in with the deflection of one's cue, but it works as CJ says that it does.

Or... I guess I should say that it does, FOR ME.

 

[duckie]

If someone can not handle long sessions, that is conditioning and not style of play that is coming into play.

Also, there is a difference in 9 ball and 14.1 and 8 ball. My point of view is always 8 ball or 14.1 not 9 ball.

My point is that CJ does not not have the holy grail on how to play pool like everyone thinks.

CJ has found what works for him but is not the end all too how to shoot or play pool.

One may choose his style now, but this does not mean one will stick to it. You will never hear from those that tried it and didn't like it.

I can spin the ball whenever all day long and never get tired or stressed. Why because for three years straight I did over 2,000 hours of practice and play using any type of spin from all kinds of shooting positions. It has paid off. I have people watch be run balls cause they never see anyone move the ball around like I do.

I can be at the table for 3 hours plus and walk away not tired or stressed from moving the ball around. My stress comes from bad play, unforced errors, stupid mistakes and not from my style of play.

CJ experiences are his and it is a bad thing to assume that one's experiences apply to all.

 

[ENGLISH!]

If someone can not handle long sessions, that is conditioning and not style of play that is coming into play.

Also, there is a difference in 9 ball and 14.1 and 8 ball. My point of view is always 8 ball or 14.1 not 9 ball.

My point is that CJ does not not have the holy grail on how to play pool like everyone thinks.

CJ has found what works for him but is not the end all too how to shoot or play pool.

One may choose his style now, but this does not mean one will stick to it. You will never hear from those that tried it and didn't like it.

I can spin the ball whenever all day long and never get tired or stressed. Why because for three years straight I did over 2,000 hours of practice and play using any type of spin from all kinds of shooting positions. It has paid off. I have people watch be run balls cause they never see anyone move the ball around like I do.

I can be at the table for 3 hours plus and walk away not tired or stressed from moving the ball around. My stress comes from bad play, unforced errors, stupid mistakes and not from my style of play.

CJ experiences are his and it is a bad thing to assume that one's experiences apply to all.

Greg,

I hear You & basically agree with most of what you say here.

I don't want to & can't speak for CJ.

But... TO ME, CJ is not talking about physical fatigue of the player. To me, He's talking about the fatigue of the player's game.

Hey, in a long race the temperature & humidity can change & the table conditions can change & swerve can change. To me, CJ is talking about all the variables, 'calculations', adjustments etc. with which that type of player has to keep up with & maintain in order to not mis later in a long match what they did not mis earlier in a long match.

To me, I think CJ believes that the TOI style is more consistent over the long haul & more the same near the end as it is at the start.

That does not mean that Mike Segel can not beat CJ in a long race. But...it might depend on the timing of a cold front coming through.

Best 2 You & ALL,
Rick

 

[tashworth19191]

At a recent TAR podcast, two US Open champions expressed some interesting viewpoints about aiming. The podcast link can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8KsVm9ePlk&feature=related and the comments on aiming systems goes from 24:15 - 29:15 .

BTW, John Schmidt just won the Predator World 14.1 tournament so perhaps that lends some additional credibility to his comments about aiming systems.

--------------------------------------

Shown below is a partial transcript provided by Lou Figueroa of what John and Corey said, leaving out the occasional comments on LD shafts and Corey’s describing how he teaches:

John Schmidt: Well, don’t get me started on aiming systems. I’ll tell you if...

Maybe they work... but nobody’s telling me the one’s that work. Because if they work, first of all you’re not factoring in swerve and deflection. OK, now what if a guy comes up with a delivery system, that’s different. But, aiming’s adorable -- but you still have to deliver -- so you could aim perfect. If those aiming systems worked, well there would just be like four million people who played like Corey. But it’s year after year and it’s still Corey.

So these aiming systems are overrated, they’re a way to sell videos and books and make people pontificate about their own greatness and believe me if it worked, then they’d be out there winning tournaments, but they’re not.

What Stevie Moore doesn’t get is -- Stevie Moore -- you could put a bag over his head and he’d run out. He’s a great player. So he’s playing great in spite of his aiming system, not because of it. I mean, think about it: he’s already a great player. He could aim at the wall and he’s still going to make the ball. And it’s a way to give him comfort and confidence. He’s kind of like tricked himself into thinking ‘this aiming system works.’

(John sets up to demonstrate a shot.) I just can’t see how I’m going to use english here and I’m going to aim bottom right english. So I’m aiming out here -- it’s going to squirt. Well, what aiming system is going to work for that?! It’s only going to work with center ball. And you know, all these guys with their aiming systems can get like weight from me. And I don’t use an aiming system.

Corey Duel: Yeah the one that he’s talking about I haven’t been able to comprehend it yet. It’s something about pivoting the back foot and... I don’t know.

John Schmidt: My piece of advice, if anybody cares to the viewers at home: forget all the aiming systems. Just like when you throw a baseball to first, you just do it. Right? There’s no aiming, you do it, you feel it. It’s same with pool. You get a mental picture and you do it. Aiming systems are the most ridiculous, overrated thing...The pros scoff at that stuff, they’re like, ‘aiming systems, really?!’...

If they would quit spending so much time on line and learning about aiming systems and go hit more balls they’d become better players. There’s no short cut to it. Sitting on AZ Billiards looking for aiming systems isn’t going to get it. It’s like the golf swing guys. They got a thousand videos. But the guy that goes to the driving range till his hands bleed, that’s the good golfer. You can’t watch it online and go, ‘oh, there’s got to be a system for hitting a four iron two hundred yards on the green.’ It’s the same with pool. We’ve hit a million pool balls -- that’s our system. I mean, you’re not going to get good at anything using a system.

I could be wrong, I don’t know if I’m right. I just think aiming systems are crazy. Deflection and swerve is what makes this game so tough. If there was no such thing as that, you know you just hit whatever english, but this thing goes sideways off of your stick. That’s why the game’s so impossible.
​

Yep, I tried several of them and gez, I have a B.S. in Electrical Engineering and an M.S. in Information Technology with a minor in Math and I can't figure them out. I have asked several makers of the DVD's to explain step by step how to do it. Before you buy the DVD it is the best thing since sliced bread. After you buy the DVD it is "keep practicing and you will understand it". Well I kept practicing it and understand that I should have kept my money and not bought a DVD. I should have been "Hitting a Million Balls" instead. HAMP is the way, not the other accronyms.,