I guess the question is. How many of us have or have had a custom cue and a production cue but play with the production cue because it plays better. How many have had a custom cue made only to find you don't like how it plays? This isn't a knock on custom cues. Custom cues can play great and look beautiful. The hang up can be spending a lot more money and time for a cue only to find out you don't like how it plays. Same thing can happen with a production cue but you probably paid less and may have had a chance to shoot with it before you bought it. Just saying. Nothing worse than waiting for a cue and then being disappointed. So like most of us we either go back to an older cue or get a new one. Custom or production, there is no guarantee your going to like how it plays.
Questions for you custom cue players
- Thread starter TheAggressor
- Start date
I have owned LOTS of cues of the years... and in an "experiment" I was led to do THIS:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=4354691#post4354691
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=4354691#post4354691
For me, it has to be custom. Even if I wanted a LD shaft, I would have it matched to my custom cue by the maker.
You can use a custom cue for several years, and as long as you look after it, the value is still there if you decide to sell or trade it. Refinishing a 10 year old predator for example will not bring it's value to anything like the original retail price.
Custom makers are far more fussy about the quality of materials used in making their cues. They usually take real pride in their product, so a lot of love, care and attention will go into the cue.
You can use a custom cue for several years, and as long as you look after it, the value is still there if you decide to sell or trade it. Refinishing a 10 year old predator for example will not bring it's value to anything like the original retail price.
Custom makers are far more fussy about the quality of materials used in making their cues. They usually take real pride in their product, so a lot of love, care and attention will go into the cue.
Cue
Nonsense.... There is a cue out there that will make me a world beater. I must continue the search!:wink:
Nonsense.... There is a cue out there that will make me a world beater. I must continue the search!:wink:
$1200 cue
I have a nice custom Paul Mottey and a Schon STL when I put a Pred. shaft on them there is very little difference in the hit. They both weigh about the same. I could of saved alot of money if I went with the Schon 1st. Look for a used Carolina Custom and get a great playing cue and save about $700.
I have a nice custom Paul Mottey and a Schon STL when I put a Pred. shaft on them there is very little difference in the hit. They both weigh about the same. I could of saved alot of money if I went with the Schon 1st. Look for a used Carolina Custom and get a great playing cue and save about $700.
A cue is an expense, not an investment. Custom makers are not "far more fussy" about the quality of their materials. That's a pretty big generalization. The production houses grade their cues on the same level as custom makers. Don't expect 4A birdseye on a $200 plain jane Joss. However, look at some of the $2k+ cues. You'll see the nice burls and high grade woods.
If you're a collector, you aren't going to buy a production cue. It does not make sense. If you're buying a custom cue because of the mystique that they play better than a production cue, which is the belief a lot of people have, then you're in for some buyer's remorse. Besides, most "custom cue" players suffer from a condition I call "cuephoria". It's their next fix. "My Diveney is the NUTS!!!!!". 5 weeks later, it's in the for sale section as the "best cue they've ever owned", but they're buying another cue. Then, 6 weeks later, the new cue they bought is for sale, and onto the next.
I'm a former cue-aholic, so I can attest to the above condition.
I collect cues, and enjoy shooting with different sticks as they pass through, but I have played all my league and cup games with the same custom cue for the last 2 or 3 years, and cannot envisage selling it.
Go and buy a Predator and a Bluegrass Plain Jane at around $1200, and compare what they are worth after 5 years of play.
If you spend $2K+ on a true production Joss (not a Dan Janes 1 of 1) then you need your head checked!
Everyone here has brought up some good points to be aware of. There are so many different levels of cue owners....from the weekly APA/BCA player that just wants a decent cue to call his/her own to the serious cue collector. Every cue has an expense. They are all an investment to some degree. Production houses put out great cues in great numbers. Custom cue makers put out great cues in smaller numbers. You can get a custom made from a production house. Same with the custom cue maker.
There have been alot of generalizations made here. Unless a person has personally talked to every custom cue maker out there and every production house out there, you really don't know the "exacts" of their cue making process and why they feel their cue(s) are of better quality. Most custom cue makers are known for bringing something to the industry that is "their own". Some cue makers have been around for a long time (Ernie, Bill Schick, Dan Janes, Bob Meucci, etc) and some not quite as long (Searing, Eric Crisp, Tasc, Black Boar, etc) or even new guys just popping up withing the last 5-10 years. Let's not forget that most of the production houses today actually started small and were "custom cue makers" before they found their niche.
To the OP.....we all should be grateful of the standard-bearers who brought about custom cues, the courage of the new cue maker for making a serious investment in him/herself in this endevour, the cue makers who post on AZB and freely give their trials/tribulations/expertise, and the new people that are wanting to know the info. As with any group, you will ALWAYS have differing opinions. You really can't go wrong as long as you heed the advise of....Try it before you buy if (if possible) and Do your research prior to everything else. You can't go wrong as long as you like what you are spending "YOUR" money on.. It's your money, not ours. Some of us buy cues because they are pretty. Some because of the cue maker's name associated. Some for the rarity of the cue. Guess what? Most of the well-known/established production houses have made some great cues. Some even rare/discontinued and highly sought after. It's your choice.
Most everything has been discussed here on AZB in one form or another. Everything from tips to chalk and anything related to pool/billiards. I don't claim to know much but I do know where all of the knowledge is. It's right here. It's right in your local pool hall. It's at the tournaments. Please do yourself a favor and go to one. Soon! Alot of custom cue makers have booths. There are alot of cue dealers as well. Ask your favorite pros. Ask questions like you've done here. Most will tell you something useful.
BTW.....OP.....Welcome to the OBSESSION!!!!
Looking to upgrade my equipment to something that will last a while. I have been looking at and testing production cues around the $650-$750 range. With this price range it got me thinking. If I just saved (or gambled) up a couple more hundred I could buy a lower-end or used custom. I have been doing some research but still have lots of questions. Replies from a few of you who do play with custom cues would be great.
I want a cue that will move the ball nicely around the table and give me feedback. A real playing cue, not just a collector’s item. Will a mid-range custom cue out perform a high-end production?
Did you play with the cue before investing $1,200+ or did you just trust the brand name?
Where do you purchase custom cues? I can’t seem to find direct websites for a lot of the cue makers.
Staying in the $1,200 or under range what are some of my options? Used in good shape is fine by me.
Thanks for your time.
Edit: I guess my most basic question is; Is a custom cue worth the extra money if all you care about is playability?
You don't have to pay that much cash for a custom cue.
The cheapest custom, that I've ever paid for, was $119. It was the second best playing cue, that I've ever played with and I'd take it over the Cognoscenti & Szamboti I've played with. I've played with many customs, included $2,000+ cues, and while they are beautiful, they don't play like the $119 cue. My current cue, cost me around $300, and I'll keep it forever.
I think I know was your inexpensive custom was
Yup, and I'll be calling him again to make me a 60" cue. Ebony/Maple with veneers.
I have an idea for a cue... and really want to have my cheese head buddies do it for me, but I'm not sure its in there wheel house (but then again, it's not really in anybodies wheelhouse... whomever agrees to make the cue I want has to be VERY open to some very weird requests)
News flash - Dan makes his production line with the exact same construction techniques as his 1 of 1 cues. We're talking about playability of cues, not how they look. The OP wasn't looking to buy a collector's piece. He wants a cue he can play with.
As I said, from an investment standpoint, custom is the way to go. However, I don't think you're going to see the same returns on your investment in the upcoming months. The market is becoming flooded with high end customs for sale lately. If I buy a Southwest for $3k, I may play with it for a year, and get $2700 for it a year later. If I play with a $200 Viking, and used it for a year, I may only get $120 for it a year later. I didn't really buy the Viking as an investment opportunity. I bought it to play with. And lost $80 owning it. Meanwhile, I lost $300 on the SW. That's how I look at it. On the vast majority of my custom sales, I lost money. On a few, I made some money. I lost less money on my $400 and less production cues. There's a bigger market for those cues, because they're affordable.
So I've read that if SVB picked what felt best to him out of the factory it's somehow special? No longer a "production"? So what's the difference if the OP goes to SBE in April and picks out and test drives one of the thousands of cues, both production and custom available? Seems to me that will be a better "investment" than sending off for a custom cue sight and feel unseen.
And about all that care the cuemakers are putting into the wood ageing and selection process. Well yeah, true for a small fraction of the builders. But the others? I would love to see the buyers list from Schmelke. Or Muller's.
If your buying from someone who builds 12 cues a year, it's art. That's just fine. Nothing wrong with supporting the arts, nor investing in art either. But that has nothing to do with finding what ever is the "best" playing cue for you.
Bottom line is I'm still waiting for someone to admit that they paid $5,000 for a pretty cue that hits like
suck.
And about all that care the cuemakers are putting into the wood ageing and selection process. Well yeah, true for a small fraction of the builders. But the others? I would love to see the buyers list from Schmelke. Or Muller's.
If your buying from someone who builds 12 cues a year, it's art. That's just fine. Nothing wrong with supporting the arts, nor investing in art either. But that has nothing to do with finding what ever is the "best" playing cue for you.
Bottom line is I'm still waiting for someone to admit that they paid $5,000 for a pretty cue that hits like
suck.
Dennis Searing made cues for Mizerak. Pete Tascarella has been around for awhile. And Black Boar has been around for a long time, too. Eric is newer to cuemaking, so he belongs in that list, but the other 3 should be with the first group. I'd list the "not quite as long" guys as makers like Eric, Steve Klein, Cory Barnhart, Bryan Mordt, etc.
Get this blasphemy... yep I am about to say it:
I have a buddy who has a VERY nice Southwest, Purple Heart and Goncalo Alves... cue is IMMACULATE... he loves it
I hit some balls with it, and HATED IT!!!
Played like GARBAGE (in my opinion)
easily a $4K cue
and at the time I was playing with my wife's PURPLE plain jane McDermott ($140 stained maple cue)... and would take the McDermott 100 times out of 100 if I was playing for $$$
Yes. You are right Shawn. I know Tony (BB) and Pete have been around for quite a while. Dennis too. I wasn't trying to say who the original old cue makers were....hence the reason why I didn't include Rambow, Paradise, etc. I didn't want to put a date/timeframe to each maker. I was only trying to say that there are a bunch of cue makers that were originators of certain design/build aspects making them unique to them. Even the last 20-30 years, we have seen alot of great cue makers come up, be successful, and create awesome cues. Most of the cue makers we're talking about worked under other cue makers and learned the craft before setting out on their own. Thank goodness they did. Their craft is being passed down. Every year something new comes out that's unique and awe inspiring. And we all should consider ourselves lucky to have many of them contribute on AZB. If it weren't for the efforts of many (Eric Crisp, Larry Vigus, Thomas Wayne, Brent Hartman, Jon Spitz, Dave Barrenbrugge, and others) contributing constantly on the "Ask the Cuemaker" subforum, most of us wouldn't understand what it takes to make a cue....why they choose the woods they choose...how each piece interacts with the other. I know I learned an enormous amount.
Most people think the tip and ferrule are the most important part of a cue and determines the "hit" of the cue. Ask any cue maker what they think/feel is the most important and listen to what they have to say. Just be careful if you happen to ask Dennis Diekman that question. Just sayin....
At the end of the day, there is no right or wrong when choosing a production cue or a custom cue. It's whatever the buyer is comfortable in spending and likes. Does the buyer want something off the shelf or does he want some input into what the cue will possibly look like. I've owned plenty of both. The OP asked a great question. I think a lot of people forget that the more reputable production cue makers once started out as a custom cue maker. That was one of the main things I was trying to impress upon him.
I totally agree. The OP is looking for a good playing cue under $1200. There are more than plenty to be had. Plenty of websites that have them. He should be able to find one to his liking. His problem is not knowing. The only way to solve that is to try some out. Go to SBE. Go to DCC. Talk to some of the cue makers here. Glean from this thread what you can. You're already on the right track. If I had $1200, I would find me a good Titlist conversion done by a reputable custom cue maker and call it a day. Best of both worlds and will always have some value. Just my $.02
Good luck in your search
I'm going to expose some little known secrets that some custom cuemakers may not want you to know.
Wood selection? Yeah, harmonics, etc, grain.....complete BS. Most of the new cuemakers are coring their cues. So there goes that "selected based on grain and tonality" garbage. I have a Barnhart - cored with laminated maple. Keith Josey cores his cues with a one piece laminated core. So, if you bought one of his ebony cues because you "love the hit and tonal feel of ebony", that radial pin is firmly glued and seated into a laminated maple core. A lot of makers have started coring their woods due to using less stable woods. Burls like to move, so you use a gun drill, core out the wood, and stick maple into the middle. There goes that wonderful "wood selection" argument. How do you get consistency in cues? Assemble them the same way, independent of wood types. Coring makes wood more stable, and makes weights more manageable. It also eliminates a need for a screw at the A joint, which eliminates any connection issues, or buzzes and rattles. Schons are cored as well. Evan uses a special wood that is used in archery, as it makes his cues flex consistently.
Here's my stance on the custom cuemaker, and their wood aging process. Aging and drying wood isn't new. Some cuemaker didn't come up with the magic formula. The guys that have made furniture and other wooden products learned about it long before the cuemaking world. Anyone can pick up a book and learn about wood, humidity levels, etc. I find it a tad arrogant for a guy that's made cues in his basement for the past 6 years to think he has a leg up on a production facility like Mezz, which is owned by Helmstetter, that was set up by Richard Helmstetter. He studied forestry, and has probably forgotten more about wood than most aspiring cuemakers will learn. He set up production facilities for other cuemaking operations, teaching them how to properly select and treat wood. I've been inside the Joss plant. I've seen how much wood is in the shop. They probably throw out more wood in a year than a custom maker buys. "Well, I've been making cues for 7 years now, but I know more than those guys at Joss that have been making them for 40 years....because I put "custom" in the name of my cues". Pretty entertaining.
Dan Janes and Keith Josey are good friends. They exchange cuemaking ideas all the time. To think that one is doing something that the other can't, or vice versa is, again, a tad arrogant. They have their specific markets they cater to. However, some people have figured that more expensive means better. They're using watch and car analogies. Hate to tell you this, but there's no comparisons between comparing Toyota to Ferrari, and applying that same logic to a custom cuemaker vs a production maker. The cues are made from WOOD. Maple is maple. Cored is cored. A Triangle tip on a custom plays the same as a Triangle tip on a production cue. Where I think the production facility has the advantage is repeatability, and automation. With a custom cuemaker, you have one guy that does everything, Some people think that means a better cue. I don't necessarily believe that to be true. If I'm hung over the day I decided to do your ferrule, I may mess it up a little. I finish the cue, and look it over. Then send it out, because you've sent me 14 emails asking where the hell your cue is, and I just want the bombing to stop. You get the cue, and find my mistake. Now, at McDermott, let's say Bob, on the lathe, messes up the ferrule. He sends it over to the sanding guy. The sanding guy, who doesn't drink, sees the ferrule mistake. He brings it to Bob, and says "fix the ferrule", because all he does is look at shafts for sanding all day long. There are checks and balances in place that mistakes get caught. By having certain steps in place, they make a very consistent playing cue, with consistent quality controls, and have multiple steps to ensure the customer gets a satisfactory product.
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