I'm with Neil on this "upstroke" thing. I just don't see enough room to move your hand down to get significant upward movement of the tip. Even getting just a level hit would be an accomplishment with that technique.
pj
chgo
Question about intentional swerve
- Thread starter bdorman
- Start date
pj
chgo
I also see no potential benefit to attempting to "upstroke," unless it is being used to avoid a double hit. If the goal is to get more topspin for a given forward speed, stroking with a straight stroke at the normal-roll contact height would be much more effective and consistent. It is extremely difficult to get overspin w/o miscuing, and any overspin would wear off very quickly. For those still not convinced, much more information and justifications for these and related statements can be found here:
natural roll, maximum offset, and overspin
stroke swoop
Enjoy,
Dave
I don't know how it works but I do know that some very high tier 3C guys swear there is something called an ascending stroke. I also know that when I'm playing pool really well I have the feeling that I can go through the CB at different angles to achieve certain effects. So I'm not convinced one way or the other.
I suppose that's it's possible that this is just one of those things, like following through on a stroke, that sounds good though the CB is long gone before the follow through (or lack of it) can have an effect.
It's one of those things I have an open mind about and think deserves more testing. It may do something but not for the reasons advocates believe.
Lou Figueroa
At 4:00 in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tihmp1-T2Ko you will see one benefit of an upstroke. Too bad cameramen never show the strokes but I don't know how else he got out of the kiss with such a thick hit.
Correct Rick,
The high hit CB swerves earlier than the low hit CB, even with much more elevation on the cue for the low hit.
One needs to consider the distance to the intervening ball when attempting the most predictable swerve / masse' path with minimal elevation, which allows more accurate aiming usually.
If the intervening ball is close, it may be worth hitting a little above center, but when further away, hit the CB lower, so the swerve takes later.
Note: I've noticed even normal elevation with high side english swerves annoyingly early, which is a pain in the butt when applying BHE in some circumstances.
Note 2: When I say swerves earlier, it could be also explained as a shorter parabolic path... same net direction, but the direction changes much earlier in the path of travel.
Note 3: This does not seem to be consistent with the Coriolis Masse' Theorem.
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Just hit it thinner than standard with touch of stun to widen the CB angle, and heavy inside to get the CB back on path.
Over that distance to the first ball, any changes in effective path to ball with a reasonably flat stroke, in whatever upward or downward motion, is insignificant compared to the effects of stunning, thinning or thickening hit and amount of side english to affect direction after the first rail.
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Colin,
What do you think is inconsistent with the Coriolis masse shot aiming system? It predicts the final angle only, not how soon the curve occurs.
Regards,
Dave
...and at that moderate speed, the CB will be rolling the same way almost no matter how you hit it.
pj
chgo
Re-watching it, I don't think he had any sliding remaining on the CB, so perhaps the table just played shorter than the poster expected, allowing a thinner hit which allowed the CB to pass in front of the cut ball.
But such a manipulation is possible, as a drag type shot.
Non-intuitive would have been better phrasing Dave. In that, we get to see more turn from the original path, whereas, if we played to a target 20 foot away, the slow curving parabola, with a greater differential in final angle, would catch up and pass the actual CB path.
Edit: Perhaps part of my observation / feeling is due to the losses that seem to occur the further a ball slides before spin takes to a natural roll.
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Just tried your suggestion and made it once of 10 attempts. Will certainly work more on this since its an interesting stroke. BTW I made it 3 in a row with an upstroke. I don't know why, I just know results.
Take a look again at the shot and how the CB gets out of the kiss. He didn't push the OB out of the way. He didn't thin it but the CB quickly moves past it. It looks close 1/2 ball hit! I'll admit my hit was thinner but not by much.
Geezz I thought I said I wouldn't get into this. Your fault for suggesting a technique I've not considered. Thx I think.
If you watch the cue, you will see that the back end drops & the tip comes up.
Many are going to argue that you can get the same action by hitting the cue ball in the same place with a level stroke. They will say that the cue ball is gone before the tip can 'swipe up' during that 1/1,000 of a second that it is in contact with the cue ball. They just don't seem to understand or won't admit that what happens just before contact & even after contact effects what happens during that extremely short but vital contact time. They don't seem to understand that a difference yields a difference.
I guess we will just have to let them 'know' what they 'know', as we will never convince them until 'science' does some in depth & really true scientific experiments, which I don't see happening any time soon, given the state of the 'professional' game, pool that is.
Best 2 You, Sir, & All Others as Well,
Rick
Many thanks for all the helpful replies.
I tried much of it out last night. My conclusion is that I'm comfortable swerving the CB if it's less than 1/4-blocked by an intervening ball at a distance of 1-diamond. Probably about 25-30 degree elevation of the cue. It seems like I can do that pretty reliably. Anything more than that and I'll kick.
Thanks again!
I tried much of it out last night. My conclusion is that I'm comfortable swerving the CB if it's less than 1/4-blocked by an intervening ball at a distance of 1-diamond. Probably about 25-30 degree elevation of the cue. It seems like I can do that pretty reliably. Anything more than that and I'll kick.
Thanks again!
G'Dey Colin,
Are you daring to question or be in opposition to 'known science'?:wink:
Best 2 Ya,
Rick
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Not attempting to argue, but I suspect if upstroking has any significant effect, it is in creating a tendency to hit a little thicker or thinner than one expects. It may affect swerve a little, but I'd expect that aspect is more significant to the cut angle achieved than how it effects the line of approach to the CB on the shot. .... just thinking aloud!
Nice to hear to have a table to try it out on so quickly. FWIW, I've played about 50 shots of 3C, but I played english billiards from an early age and quite enjoy studying the movement of the CB around rails off the OB. Some of my adventures of such here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keznf66dSHE
Not really Rick,
Dr. Dave has done some testing that brings into question the Coriolis Masse' theory. As to exactly how and why some shots differ from the theory is up to speculation I guess.
I think it's healthy to question things, even if such things lead to me discovering such speculations are completely worthless. But at times, because we know X, we ought sometimes wonder about Ys and Zs as variable, even though such things might not have been proven or are hard to prove.
The upward swipe interests me. Swipe generally does, as it is used so much, but never has really been explained in terms of its effects. People assume it pulls the CB in the direction of the swipe, and to some degree I think that is right, particularly on soft shots, but on firm shots, I wonder if it has any significant effect that differentiates it from a piston stroke hitting the same point on the CB.
I know Colin that was why the winky man was there.
I don't generally 'swipe' or at least I hope that I'm not but I do when the shot just seems to call for it. I've been successful with the method & I just don't have the same confidence (faith?) that I can do it in another manner, at least not with the EXACT same outcome.
As I said earlier, we won't know many things for sure until some real scientific experiments & studies are done & I don't see that happening any time soon, at least not in my playing lifetime.
So... I'll keep swooping when I think (feel) it's the best thing to do.
Later,
Rick
Rick,
Before the advent of the HiDef big screen TVs, I'd pretty much assumed only bad pro snooker players swiped and swooped. These days, I get to see the best snooker players swiping and swooping regularly and predictably. When they stop doing it, I guess we all should.
I actually find the straightest cueists to be English 8 Ball players, who I think are doing what they have been instructed to, by books and coaches over the years. They get away with this because the pockets are closer and hence bigger.
I suspect there is method to the madness of swiping and, at times, swooping, even if it is discovered intuitively, without a physical understanding.
I recently watched Judd Trump play a BHE draw back with extreme side english on the black... though I'm pretty sure he doesn't know what BHE is. He lined up the CB dead centre and swiped to low far edge during the stroke. He does it quite a lot actually... might explain why he is probably the most confident snooker player when it comes to power shots with side english.
Even if you can get enough side-swipe speed to make a difference (as compared to the forward speed of the cue), the resulting shot is equivalent to a straight stroke at a certain contact point (which would be further out on the ball, if the swipe speed is significant). Here's an illustration Jal posted a while back that illustrates the concept:
The real advantage of the stroke swoop (for some) is the ability to aim center-ball with no squirt correction and create the tip offset (and squirt correction) during the stroke. Beside that, there really is no benefit to using a swooping stroke. BHE before the stroke (or placing the cue along the necessary line of aim intuitively w/o swoop or BHE, like most top players do) will result in a much more consistent and accurate hit. For those interested, the stroke swoop resource page explains both the advantages and disadvantages of stroke swoop, and includes some useful video demonstrations to help make the points. Here's one of my favorites:
NV B.33 - Back-hand swoop and twist ball-turn techniques
Enjoy,
Dave
Or maybe the tip just came up because of the obvious- elbow drop pushing the butt down after contact. But, go ahead and keep on keepin' on in your fantasy world.
edit: Upon closer examination, his tip didn't even drop. About 8" after contact, his cue tip veered to the right. Until that time, it stayed dead straight.
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