Question about intentional swerve

[ENGLISH!]

Or maybe the tip just came up because of the obvious- elbow drop pushing the butt down after contact. But, go ahead and keep on keepin' on in your fantasy world.

edit: Upon closer examination, his tip didn't even drop. About 8" after contact, his cue tip veered to the right. Until that time, it stayed dead straight.

Your glasses must be much better than mine. I'll just leave it for anyone with real eyes that can see the truth to make their own determinations.

You seem to just not know what you don't know which is all fine & well, for you. Some of us like 3kushn, Colin, & myself & I'm sure others just seem to be more aware than you & that's okay.

May God Bless You, Neil.

 

[Neil]

Your glasses must be much better than mine. I'll just leave it for anyone with real eyes that can see the truth to make their own determinations.

You seem to just not know what you don't know which is all fine & well, for you. Some of us like 3kushn, Colin, & myself & I'm sure others just seem to be more aware than you & that's okay.

May God Bless You, Neil.

It's not glasses, Rick. It's just knowing how to look at something. If you simply place a straight edge along the cue on the screen, and hit pause and play as fast as you can, you can see very easily what I described.

Or, you can just look at it in normal speed and see what ever you want to see and then claim that as fact.

 

[3kushn]

I can't tell if its a rising tip of not. The butt seems to say yes but the tip says no.
I also can't see that its obvious that its an elbow drop either. My screen doesn't show the elbow. Do I need a new computer or did you guys find another vid of this game?

A rising tip doesn't require a dropping elbow either.

 

[AtLarge]

How high is the rail on a typical 3C table?

 

[Colin Colenso]

Even if you can get enough side-swipe speed to make a difference (as compared to the forward speed of the cue), the resulting shot is equivalent to a straight stroke at a certain contact point (which would be further out on the ball, if the swipe speed is significant). Here's an illustration Jal posted a while back that illustrates the concept:

The real advantage of the stroke swoop (for some) is the ability to aim center-ball with no squirt correction and create the tip offset (and squirt correction) during the stroke. Beside that, there really is no benefit to using a swooping stroke. BHE before the stroke (or placing the cue along the necessary line of aim intuitively w/o swoop or BHE, like most top players do) will result in a much more consistent and accurate hit. For those interested, the stroke swoop resource page explains both the advantages and disadvantages of stroke swoop, and includes some useful video demonstrations to help make the points. Here's one of my favorites:

NV B.33 - Back-hand swoop and twist ball-turn techniques

Enjoy,
Dave

Hi Dave,

It's a good diagram and I see how it can come into play as an aiming compensation method and it's arguable whether this is the best way to go. But it sure is interesting that most of the world's best potters swipe on the type of shots where gearing english has advantages and how so many swipe when attempting heavy side english and masse' type shots.

I've highlighted what I'll call the swipe component which I think may increase the spin of the CB in that direction, even for a zero offset hit, i.e swipe to center CB.

When basketballers spin a basketball on their fingers, they hit it with a swiping action to get a lot of spin with very little forward movement, which they retard by moving the axis of spin. This creates a much higher spin to forward speed ratio than they could achieve with an off center poke of the basketball.

Obviously we can't get that type of pure swipe effect on a CB with a swiping action, but it seems reasonable to me that we could get a part of this effect.

Colin

 

[ENGLISH!]

It's not glasses, Rick. It's just knowing how to look at something. If you simply place a straight edge along the cue on the screen, and hit pause and play as fast as you can, you can see very easily what I described.

Or, you can just look at it in normal speed and see what ever you want to see and then claim that as fact.

I was being facetious about the glasses.

Do you really actually think you can see whether a tip moved mere millimeters or not on your computer screen with a straight edge as a guide?

May God Help You Neil,

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hi Dave,

It's a good diagram and I see how it can come into play as an aiming compensation method and it's arguable whether this is the best way to go. But it sure is interesting that most of the world's best potters swipe on the type of shots where gearing english has advantages and how so many swipe when attempting heavy side english and masse' type shots.

I've highlighted what I'll call the swipe component which I think may increase the spin of the CB in that direction, even for a zero offset hit, i.e swipe to center CB.

When basketballers spin a basketball on their fingers, they hit it with a swiping action to get a lot of spin with very little forward movement, which they retard by moving the axis of spin. This creates a much higher spin to forward speed ratio than they could achieve with an off center poke of the basketball.

Obviously we can't get that type of pure swipe effect on a CB with a swiping action, but it seems reasonable to me that we could get a part of this effect.

Colin

Good post Colin.

 

[Neil]

I was being facetious about the glasses.

Do you really actually think you can see whether a tip moved mere millimeters or not on your computer screen with a straight edge as a guide?

May God Help You Neil,

That's funny Rick. You are questioning me on mm's, and you can't even seem to see INCHES. And, for the record, yes, I can tell if the hit was off by a couple of mm. It's actually quite easy when you actually know what you are looking at.

 

[ENGLISH!]

That's funny Rick. You are questioning me on mm's, and you can't even seem to see INCHES. And, for the record, yes, I can tell if the hit was off by a couple of mm. It's actually quite easy when you actually know what you are looking at.

Like I said before, you don't know what you don't know.

Read Colins post & give it some thought.

Also, I'd like to do a poll & see how many think you can actually see a differential of 2 mm of tip travel on your computer screen with an alternating of play & pause.

May God Bless You Neil.

 

[The Renfro]

I've probably watched more hours of the professionals in the last 6 years than anyone but Pat Fleming... I have also looked at tons of shots in slow motion for evaluation as replays on our DVDs and PPVs... The ascending tip/upstroke is common fodder at the high level... The pinoys especially employ it when they go hopkins mode and almost eliminate the back swing... Alex and Corteza used it with great success on the 10fter at times..... I watched Shane line up with draw and follow the cueball with roll dropping the butt... Those guys are on a different level and they control the tip.. They really don't concern themselves with the levelness of their cue....

It is ok if someone doesn't think the upstroke does anything as they may do it subconsciously and I doubt they would be aware if they do... I would bet many of the good players I have watched and replayed doing it likely may not even realize THEY are doing it.... They are strictly looking for a way to perform certain shots at a high level, consistently...

When you get a chance, go check out some 14.1 and pay attention to the break shots... Upstroke on break shots where the break ball is further from the rack than desired will ensure you get the tangent into the rack and hit the ball you aim at....

I asked Fleming about using it and he said he never heard it called an upstroke but he knew the shot and just never thought about the parameters... The break shot in question was the russian in last years final at DCC vs Orcullo and I ran it slow motion several times to show him the tip finishing high thru the cueball with the butt dropping...

Chris

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thanks for making that post Chris.

PS Do you wear glasses?

 

[Neil]

Like I said before, you don't know what you don't know.

Read Colins post & give it some thought.

Also, I'd like to do a poll & see how many think you can actually see a differential of 2 mm of tip travel on your computer screen with an alternating of play & pause.

May God Bless You Neil.

You do realize that is akin to doubting that someone can tell water is wet by putting their finger in it, don't you?? You never cease to crack me up! You are so blinded by your biases that you not only can't see the obvious, but you cast aspersions on anyone that can see! Just amazing.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

edit: Since you asked that I re-read Colins post, mind explaining just what that has anything to do with what I stated?

 

[Neil]

I've probably watched more hours of the professionals in the last 6 years than anyone but Pat Fleming... I have also looked at tons of shots in slow motion for evaluation as replays on our DVDs and PPVs... The ascending tip/upstroke is common fodder at the high level... The pinoys especially employ it when they go hopkins mode and almost eliminate the back swing... Alex and Corteza used it with great success on the 10fter at times..... I watched Shane line up with draw and follow the cueball with roll dropping the butt... Those guys are on a different level and they control the tip.. They really don't concern themselves with the levelness of their cue....

It is ok if someone doesn't think the upstroke does anything as they may do it subconsciously and I doubt they would be aware if they do... I would bet many of the good players I have watched and replayed doing it likely may not even realize THEY are doing it.... They are strictly looking for a way to perform certain shots at a high level, consistently...

When you get a chance, go check out some 14.1 and pay attention to the break shots... Upstroke on break shots where the break ball is further from the rack than desired will ensure you get the tangent into the rack and hit the ball you aim at....

I asked Fleming about using it and he said he never heard it called an upstroke but he knew the shot and just never thought about the parameters... The break shot in question was the russian in last years final at DCC vs Orcullo and I ran it slow motion several times to show him the tip finishing high thru the cueball with the butt dropping...

Chris

A point of clarification Chris... are you talking about the moment of contact, or the finish of the stroke??

 

[ENGLISH!]

You do realize that is akin to doubting that someone can tell water is wet by putting their finger in it, don't you?? You never cease to crack me up! You are so blinded by your biases that you not only can't see the obvious, but you cast aspersions on anyone that can see! Just amazing.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

Seeing a 2mm differential on a video reproduction on a common computer screen without advanced enhancement software is a far cry from someone being able to actually feel if something is wet when they can actually touch it. Nice try though. Well...not really.

I sold some of the most up to date High Tech Video Surveillance Equipment for a couple of years & I seriously doubt that your 'observation' would even be allowed in a court of law much less hold up to cross examination if it were even actually allowed to be entered into evidence.

I have no bias here. I just know when I & sometimes others use a swipe stroke.

Your saying what you think you see on a play pause version of a reproduction of a video on your computer screen changes nothing nor proves anything just as your 'attacking' me changes nothing nor proves anything.

Each individual reading this thread & seeing that video can & will make up their own mind, just as they should.

I'm sorry that you seem to think that your opinion & what you say is gospel. I'm sorry to be the one to tell that it is not.

May God Bless You Neil.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I've probably watched more hours of the professionals in the last 6 years than anyone but Pat Fleming... I have also looked at tons of shots in slow motion for evaluation as replays on our DVDs and PPVs... The ascending tip/upstroke is common fodder at the high level... The pinoys especially employ it when they go hopkins mode and almost eliminate the back swing... Alex and Corteza used it with great success on the 10fter at times..... I watched Shane line up with draw and follow the cueball with roll dropping the butt... Those guys are on a different level and they control the tip.. They really don't concern themselves with the levelness of their cue....

It is ok if someone doesn't think the upstroke does anything as they may do it subconsciously and I doubt they would be aware if they do... I would bet many of the good players I have watched and replayed doing it likely may not even realize THEY are doing it.... They are strictly looking for a way to perform certain shots at a high level, consistently...

When you get a chance, go check out some 14.1 and pay attention to the break shots... Upstroke on break shots where the break ball is further from the rack than desired will ensure you get the tangent into the rack and hit the ball you aim at....

I asked Fleming about using it and he said he never heard it called an upstroke but he knew the shot and just never thought about the parameters... The break shot in question was the russian in last years final at DCC vs Orcullo and I ran it slow motion several times to show him the tip finishing high thru the cueball with the butt dropping...

Chris

Interesting observations Chris.

I'll have to look for Jimmy White's book Masterclass that I used to have. I recall him making some points regarding the high follow / topspin shot, and how it can deflect into the cloth causing problems. It may be that the upward swoop reduced the CB squirting downward into the cloth.

 

[Neil]

Seeing a 2mm differential on a video reproduction on a common computer screen without advance enhancement software is a far cry from someone being able to feel if something is wet when they can actually touch it. Nice try though. Well...not really.

I sold some of the most up to date High Tech Video Surveillance Equipment for a couple of years & I seriously doubt that your 'observation' would even be allowed in a court of law much less hold up to cross examination if it were even actually allowed to be entered into evidence.

I have no bias here. I just know when I & sometimes others use a swipe stroke.

Your saying what you think you see on a play pause version of a reproduction of a video on your computer screen changes nothing nor proves anything just as your 'attacking' me changes nothing.

May God Bless You Neil.

Like I said, your biases are blinding you. So much so, that you see "attacking" in anyone on here that disagrees with you. Funny how you ridiculously claim my observation wouldn't be allowed in a court of law, (which has no bearing here at all), but you stand by your version of what you saw with zero evidence to support it. Really comical. But, yet so typical. If you can't produce any evidence, just accuse the one with a different view of attacking you. Or make up claims that were never even claimed by the other like you have done here.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When basketballers spin a basketball on their fingers, they hit it with a swiping action to get a lot of spin with very little forward movement, which they retard by moving the axis of spin. This creates a much higher spin to Speed ratio than they could achieve with an off enter poke at the basketball.

For the swiping motion to achieve more spin than a straight stroke could, wouldn't it have to defy the miscue limit (as viewed from the final direction of the cue tip)?

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

A video of Billiard legend Walter Lindrum showing various sweeping and swooping moves as he manipulates 2 balls along the rail playing nursery cannons. It looks easy, but takes many hours of practice to even start to get a feel for using transfer of side to one's advantage. It seems he goes a step beyond this by manipulating speed and spin with swiping and swooping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXEW4Wzh5Ps

 

[Colin Colenso]

For the swiping motion to achieve more spin than a straight stroke could, wouldn't it have to defy the miscue limit (as viewed from the final direction of the cue tip)?

pj
chgo

Perhaps the miscue limit is widened when a larger area of the tip connects with the CB, for example, if I do a 100% swipe across the ball face, say a few mm deeper than the actual edge, with no forward hand motion.

Update: I did some testing placing CB with logo to side of ball. The pure swipe (sideway movement of tip) could hit significantly wider than front on cueing without the miscue sound. However, though it sounded like it gripped, the direction of the CB was about 15 degrees from the direction of tip movement.

As writing this, I realized the cue, being at right angles to the normal line, may be acting like a massive tip end mass. Quite interesting.

A test would be to shape a tip in a sideways profile on the cue, so that the surface area on impact is greater.

 

[ENGLISH!]

That's funny Rick. You are questioning me on mm's, and you can't even seem to see INCHES. And, for the record, yes, I can tell if the hit was off by a couple of mm. It's actually quite easy when you actually know what you are looking at.

It was you that made the statement above.

I think any unbiased reader can see your personal 'attacks', etc.

I've been advised by AZB personele to ignore you. I don't know why I forgot that advice but you've reminded me why you should be ignored.

May God Bless You Neil.