How do we create consistency in our pool game?

[SJDinPHX]

A few months ago I would of agreed with you BUT, I took CJ's advice on foot placement and I can tell you it made a drastic difference right away.

Now, compared to you, I'm just a ballbanger so I'm sure you think my opinion is meaningless, but I ask you this, if I have a structured practice routine and make one adjustment(foot placement) and my shotmaking increases by 10%(minimum ) would you still consider the idea of foot placement " ridiculous"?

I saw the comment that cj made about your foot placement possibly could of won a "big tournament",,,,, you never know

Sir, Yes, foot placement is somewhat important But a 10% improvement won't get it !..You must not have read my reply ?..CJ can very often be a complete bufoon !..He gets carried away, with very insignificant details..But that don't make him a bad guy !

PS..Perfect example of his bufoonery, would be TOI !

 

[wayne]

Sir, Yes, foot placement is somewhat important But a 10% improvement won't get it !..You must not have read my reply ?..CJ can very often be a complete bufoon !..He gets carried away, with very insignificant details..But that don't make him a bad guy !

PS..Perfect example of his bufoonery, would be TOI !

Early in my pool career I had an instructor who tried to teach me to shoot all shots with what he described as a hair of inside. I also watched some video cassettes by CJ. I was unable to figure out how to use it on all shots but I did learn to use it on a lot of cut shots and it works for me.

Also, C J said something about alignment a month or so ago that clicked for me and it picked my game up by a. ball or so in 1 pocket. I have not lost to anyone since that time in about 20 money matches including a couple of pros playing even.

I can't say how much C J is right about all he teaches but I can say there are some gems there.

 

[CJ Wiley]

great footwork is essential to win major tournaments consistently

A few months ago I would of agreed with you BUT, I took CJ's advice on foot placement and I can tell you it made a drastic difference right away.

Now, compared to you, I'm just a ballbanger so I'm sure you think my opinion is meaningless, but I ask you this, if I have a structured practice routine and make one adjustment(foot placement) and my shotmaking increases by 10%(minimum ) would you still consider the idea of foot placement " ridiculous"?

I saw the comment that cj made about your foot placement possibly could of won a "big tournament",,,,, you never know

Yes, anyone that doesn't think footwork is important is "whistling in a cemetery" (or has one foot in the grave LoL).... when it comes to games like golf, pool and martial arts, great footwork is essential to win major tournaments consistently. Efren, Earl, Sigel are good examples of exactly what I'm referring to.

Do yourself a favor and concentrate on developing a system to place your feet consistently to the "line of the shot," and you'll be glad you did.

"Systems underlie every phenomenon, and are everywhere one looks for them. They are limited only by the observer’s capacity to comprehend the complexity of the observed entity, item or phenomenon."

 

[SJDinPHX]

Some people talk in riddles, and will go to great extremes trying to convince other people that they actually know what they are talking about !..But sadly for them, they will just look even more foolish, to those who know better !

Case in point -----> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5134859&postcount=19

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Careful, you will never get a game with Lou now.

:grin:

Early in my pool career I had an instructor who tried to teach me to shoot all shots with what he described as a hair of inside. I also watched some video cassettes by CJ. I was unable to figure out how to use it on all shots but I did learn to use it on a lot of cut shots and it works for me.

Also, C J said something about alignment a month or so ago that clicked for me and it picked my game up by a. ball or so in 1 pocket. I have not lost to anyone since that time in about 20 money matches including a couple of pros playing even.

I can't say how much C J is right about all he teaches but I can say there are some gems there.

 

[cfrandy]

Get wired!

In pool, however, we deal with variables that force us to approach the table in a different way. Whether it's stretching out to reach a ball or jacking up over a ball. How do you account for those situations?

You need to rewire your brain circuitry. I remember watching Seve Ballesteros make shots in golf from impossible lies. The commentator would say, Seve can make that shot because he has had to make that shot many times before. Practicing impossible shots wires your brain so that an impossible shot becomes nothing more than a shot you've made many times before.

 

[liakos]

Sir, Yes, foot placement is somewhat important But a 10% improvement won't get it !..You must not have read my reply ?..CJ can very often be a complete bufoon !..He gets carried away, with very insignificant details..But that don't make him a bad guy !

PS..Perfect example of his bufoonery, would be TOI !

10% won't get it? Lol!!! Ok, so like I said, to you I'm just a ballbanger!

So I ask you this, at your level, even the smallest improvements can make a dramatic difference especially playing great players! Your level of play usually comes down to who made ONE mistake more than the other, if you were able to make that ONE mistake less, would you have been a "better" player? And what would happen if all it was was foot placement? the only answer to that question is YOU will never know! Doest that suck!!

Best wishes to you and yours
ELI

 

[Colonel]

Creating consistency in your pool game is about repeatability in all aspects.
1. A consistent PSR that does not waver no matter how difficult or easy the shot, no matter the game you play.
2. Repeatable fundamentals from your stance & footwork to how you align yourself to the shot & fall on the ball.
3. Repeatable break, making a ball & controlling the rock in the COT in rotation or taking balls towards your hole & parking the rock against the rail at the second diamond behind the rack in 1 pocket.
4. A repeatable stroke, probably the most important of all.

There are many here that harangue CJ, especially over what he calls & markets TOI. I've commented on this before & will here again. CJ didn't invent TOI, nor does he claim that he did. It's a style of play that was a staple of many former road players back when matches could last anywhere from 12 hours to 3 days. It's beauty is its simplicity, it doesn't look flashy so it doesn't attract attention when in a strange hall in a strange town playing strangers for their $. It's kind of vanilla, plain looking. It's about delivering your shots with the same stroke, same aiming point & same speed of stroke shot after shot. The premise being when you're playing someone who spins the ball a lot that in long matches from 12 hours to several days the player that spins the ball a lot will tire in time & his game will break down, that spin that worked so wonderfully for him will now leave him long, or short, or trapped behind a ball. Meanwhile you're tired too but your game doesn't break down, same aiming point, same speed of stroke, same shot every shot, it's consistent, repeatable which is its beauty in those situations.

As I stated in the beginning of this post many harangue CJ over this seemingly attempting to purport that there is no value in this.

I actually was a little unnerved when I found this site & saw him marketing this as I play this style, have for a long time & felt he was marketing something many players that knew this kept close to the vest. After reading so many flame him for it, call it foolishness & ignore it I had to smile. I realized even though he was attempting to bring something to everyone that a small group tried to keep quiet for so long that it didn't matter. The hecklers couldn't see the forest for the trees anyway. Life's funny like that sometimes.

What I find more interesting that as a former road agent, gambler & pro tourney player was trying to give something of substance & value to the pool world, also having the rep to make his info credible that there's a dedicated group that just loves to try to discredit it but that they offered nothing else, no attempt to bring to others some kernel of knowledge that was helpful to those CJ attempts to help, all they offer is their disdain.

 

[Siz]

Some people talk in riddles, and will go to great extremes trying to convince other people that they actually know what they are talking about !..But sadly for them, they will just look even more foolish, to those who know better !

Case in point -----> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5134859&postcount=19

I think that this comment is a little harsh - and unnecessary.

Playing this game to a high standard consistently is difficult.
Understanding how to play the game to a high standard consistently is even more difficult.
And explaining it to someone else is worse still.

There are many expert billiard players who would admit they have no idea how they do what they do (but they might mumble some stuff about ‘talent’ and ‘hard work’). Others make more of an effort to try to pin down what it is, and then to explain it to others. I think that these efforts should be welcomed.

And when attempting to explain the game, different people have different approaches. CJW has his unique style, as does for example Geno, whereas Dr Dave takes a very different approach. Of course there are many others.

If you don’t like the way one person is trying to explain what they know - or what they think they know – there are two options. If you believe that there may be some nuggets of information that can be extracted, then put up with their delivery style. If you do not think that there is likely to be anything useful on offer, or that extracting the useful bits will too difficult a task, then stop listening to them. Either way personal attacks or mockery is neither warranted nor helpful.

I have also yet to see anything like a comprehensive explanation of exactly how an expert player does what he does, and certainly not one written in a clinical, matter-of-fact, style. Nor do I expect to see one anytime soon. After the novice phase, this game is mainly in the mind, which is a dimly lit area – one that we see ‘through a glass, darkly’. We are not used to identifying exactly what is going on inside our heads at any point in time; and if we do get what might be insightful glimpses in that murky world, there is no common language available to help us to refine our thoughts and then to communicate them. Anyone who makes the attempt may stumble every now and again; but their efforts surely are to be applauded.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

CJ, I believe that's, "Whistling past the graveyard."
Never-the-less, I generally agree with what you say, but in this instance I think you are over-emphasizing the need for proper foot work in pool. Case in point is Miss Allison Fisher, who, when in the shooting position, will have her feet placement at almost 90 degrees to her line of sight. Also, and I speak from personal experience here, I have watched Danny Harriman, shoot the same way here at home.
I'm afraid I have to side with Dick, on this one. :smile:

 

[Siz]

CJ, I believe that's, "Whistling past the graveyard."
Never-the-less, I generally agree with what you say, but in this instance I think you are over-emphasizing the need for proper foot work in pool. Case in point is Miss Allison Fisher, who, when in the shooting position, will have her feet placement at almost 90 degrees to her line of sight. Also, and I speak from personal experience here, I have watched Danny Harriman, shoot the same way here at home.
I'm afraid I have to side with Dick, on this one. :smile:

I think that this misses the point somewhat The exact foot configuration does not matter; as you say different players show that there are a number of different approaches that work. What matters is (1) doing the same thing each time and (2) paying some attention to where your feet are going in relation to the shot. The reason for (2) is that this encourages the mind to pay attention to the intended shot outcome at the onset of foot movement. That is important, especially under pressure, when it is more difficult to keep your mind focused efficiently.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I think that this misses the point somewhat The exact foot configuration does not matter; as you say different players show that there are a number of different approaches that work. What matters is (1) doing the same thing each time and (2) paying some attention to where your feet are going in relation to the shot. The reason for (2) is that this encourages the mind to pay attention to the intended shot outcome at the onset of foot movement. That is important, especially under pressure, when it is more difficult to keep your mind focused efficiently.

Ah, yes. Consistency. The foundation of golf and pool.
In golf a guy can groove a bad swing, but because it is still a consistent swing he can beat your ass with it. Especially if his putter is working.
The same thing is true in pool, except for the putter part. :smile:

 

[SJDinPHX]

10% won't get it? Lol!!! Ok, so like I said, to you I'm just a ballbanger!

So I ask you this, at your level, even the smallest improvements can make a dramatic difference especially playing great players! Your level of play usually comes down to who made ONE mistake more than the other, if you were able to make that ONE mistake less, would you have been a "better" player? And what would happen if all it was was foot placement? the only answer to that question is YOU will never know! Doest that suck!!

Best wishes to you and yours
ELI

You admit to being a 'banger', and I resent that you, and many other inexperienced player's hang on his every word, as if it were gospel !..There are hundreds of other instructors, much better equipped to verbally help improve your game !..The fact that he chooses to try to capitalize on his purported 'knowledge', and others don't, should not qualify him for sainthood ! (even though he seems to think it does! )

The sheer number of subjects he claims to be an 'expert' on, should turn off even the densest 90% of you !.. And yes, a 10% improvement, would be much more attainable for you than me..jes' sayin' ! ...By the way, 'foot placement', is even MORE insignificant than a Touch of Inside!..Anyone who doesn't know how, or where to stand, is in big trouble !..Heres a free tip for you, Mr Liakos..Do not stand in front of a speeding train ! :sorry:

 

[wayne]

Careful, you will never get a game with Lou now.

:grin:

lol. I actually played Lou once in a US Open. I believe I beat him 4 games to 1 and sent him to the losers side.

When he was asking what I would give him last year I told him I would spot him 10-7 for a substantial amount. He called me a lock artist for only offering him that amount. I am sure if we were on good terms and I gave him 10-5 and the breaks he would step up and play me for $10 a game.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Whether a player chooses TOI or TOO, it really doesn't matter

Creating consistency in your pool game is about repeatability in all aspects.
1. A consistent PSR that does not waver no matter how difficult or easy the shot, no matter the game you play.
2. Repeatable fundamentals from your stance & footwork to how you align yourself to the shot & fall on the ball.
3. Repeatable break, making a ball & controlling the rock in the COT in rotation or taking balls towards your hole & parking the rock against the rail at the second diamond behind the rack in 1 pocket.
4. A repeatable stroke, probably the most important of all.

There are many here that harangue CJ, especially over what he calls & markets TOI. I've commented on this before & will here again. CJ didn't invent TOI, nor does he claim that he did. It's a style of play that was a staple of many former road players back when matches could last anywhere from 12 hours to 3 days. It's beauty is its simplicity, it doesn't look flashy so it doesn't attract attention when in a strange hall in a strange town playing strangers for their $. It's kind of vanilla, plain looking. It's about delivering your shots with the same stroke, same aiming point & same speed of stroke shot after shot. The premise being when you're playing someone who spins the ball a lot that in long matches from 12 hours to several days the player that spins the ball a lot will tire in time & his game will break down, that spin that worked so wonderfully for him will now leave him long, or short, or trapped behind a ball. Meanwhile you're tired too but your game doesn't break down, same aiming point, same speed of stroke, same shot every shot, it's consistent, repeatable which is its beauty in those situations.

As I stated in the beginning of this post many harangue CJ over this seemingly attempting to purport that there is no value in this.

I actually was a little unnerved when I found this site & saw him marketing this as I play this style, have for a long time & felt he was marketing something many players that knew this kept close to the vest. After reading so many flame him for it, call it foolishness & ignore it I had to smile. I realized even though he was attempting to bring something to everyone that a small group tried to keep quiet for so long that it didn't matter. The hecklers couldn't see the forest for the trees anyway. Life's funny like that sometimes.

What I find more interesting that as a former road agent, gambler & pro tourney player was trying to give something of substance & value to the pool world, also having the rep to make his info credible that there's a dedicated group that just loves to try to discredit it but that they offered nothing else, no attempt to bring to others some kernel of knowledge that was helpful to those CJ attempts to help, all they offer is their disdain.

That's right, I've never claimed to "invent" TOI, I just had the opportunity to share it with the world in a format that other players can benefit as I have.

There is no one way to play pool, we all know this. From what I can tell only about 37% of the players will actually understand how to apply TOI to their own games. The other 63% can still benefit from learning (through TOI) how the deflection really enhances their games. It's not unlike "drawing and fading" the golf ball, as ALL pro golfers do.

Whether a player chooses TOI or TOO, it really doesn't matter, using the teaching of TOI it's easy to learn both, either, or neither.....it's completely up to the player and his "free will". 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[liakos]

You admit to being a 'banger', and I resent that you, and many other inexperienced player's hang on his every word, as if it were gospel !..There are hundreds of other instructors, much better equipped to verbally help improve your game !..The fact that he chooses to try to capitalize on his purported 'knowledge', and others don't, should not qualify him for sainthood ! (even though he seems to think it does! )

The sheer number of subjects he claims to be an 'expert' on, should turn off even the densest 90% of you !.. And yes, a 10% improvement, would be much more attainable for you than me..jes' sayin' ! ...By the way, 'foot placement', is even MORE insignificant than a Touch of Inside!..Anyone who doesn't know how, or where to stand, is in big trouble !..Heres a free tip for you, Mr Liakos..Do not stand in front of a speeding train ! :sorry:

Lol, me being a banger compared to someone like you! People consider me an A- player! But you being a pro,, , usually, your level calls us lower insignificant players bangers!

On a side note, I always have never given my game the credit others around me give it . As an example, I was out in Milwaukee last week and had a chance to play Willie Brunson, we played for about 8 hrs and I made a comment about being an "ok" player and he stopped right away and said "I think youre and excellent player"! "You got a rock solid bridge, great shot maker, and real nice cue ball!"

Now I'm not trying to give myself a pat on the back but I truly admire the great players out there! And when I call myself a banger to someone like you, I'm trying to say that COMPARED to you, I am a banger! To B player,,,,,, I'll drill him! Hope you understand what I'm trying to say!

ELI

 

[GoldenFlash]

Creating consistency in your pool game is about repeatability in all aspects.
1. A consistent PSR that does not waver no matter how difficult or easy the shot, no matter the game you play.
2. Repeatable fundamentals from your stance & footwork to how you align yourself to the shot & fall on the ball.
3. Repeatable break, making a ball & controlling the rock in the COT in rotation or taking balls towards your hole & parking the rock against the rail at the second diamond behind the rack in 1 pocket.
4. A repeatable stroke, probably the most important of all.

There are many here that harangue CJ, especially over what he calls & markets TOI. I've commented on this before & will here again. CJ didn't invent TOI, nor does he claim that he did. It's a style of play that was a staple of many former road players back when matches could last anywhere from 12 hours to 3 days. It's beauty is its simplicity, it doesn't look flashy so it doesn't attract attention when in a strange hall in a strange town playing strangers for their $. It's kind of vanilla, plain looking. It's about delivering your shots with the same stroke, same aiming point & same speed of stroke shot after shot. The premise being when you're playing someone who spins the ball a lot that in long matches from 12 hours to several days the player that spins the ball a lot will tire in time & his game will break down, that spin that worked so wonderfully for him will now leave him long, or short, or trapped behind a ball. Meanwhile you're tired too but your game doesn't break down, same aiming point, same speed of stroke, same shot every shot, it's consistent, repeatable which is its beauty in those situations.

As I stated in the beginning of this post many harangue CJ over this seemingly attempting to purport that there is no value in this.

I actually was a little unnerved when I found this site & saw him marketing this as I play this style, have for a long time & felt he was marketing something many players that knew this kept close to the vest. After reading so many flame him for it, call it foolishness & ignore it I had to smile. I realized even though he was attempting to bring something to everyone that a small group tried to keep quiet for so long that it didn't matter. The hecklers couldn't see the forest for the trees anyway. Life's funny like that sometimes.

What I find more interesting that as a former road agent, gambler & pro tourney player was trying to give something of substance & value to the pool world, also having the rep to make his info credible that there's a dedicated group that just loves to try to discredit it but that they offered nothing else, no attempt to bring to others some kernel of knowledge that was helpful to those CJ attempts to help, all they offer is their disdain.

:clapping:
In my opinion, this post says it all about those who're lost in the past, out of gas, and have no life other than that of trashing CJW for giving his all to help players get better.
So, he picks up some bucks along the way....what's so horrible and mean spirited about that????

 

[CJ Wiley]

In a way it's a huge compliment, at least that's how I'll always take it.

:clapping:
In my opinion, this post says it all about those who're lost in the past, out of gas, and have no life other than that of trashing CJW for giving his all to help players get better.
So, he picks up some bucks along the way....what's so horrible and mean spirited about that????

It's human nature, it's been going on since the dawn of time, and will until the end.

There has never been anyone in history that has exposed unknown facts that haven't been criticized. In a way it's a huge compliment, at least that's how I'll always take it.

'The Game is the Teacher' (not CJW) :groucho:

 

[CJ Wiley]

Here's a picture of the last time you were photographed playing 9-Ball

Some people talk in riddles, and will go to great extremes trying to convince other people that they actually know what they are talking about !..But sadly for them, they will just look even more foolish, to those who know better !

Case in point -----> http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5134859&postcount=19

I suggest you do a new pool video sharing what you "know better" and I'll be sure to buy a copy. Hopefully you can make at least 30 minutes out of all your total knowledge.

Here's a picture of the last time you were photographed playing 9-Ball as a recommended cover for your DVD.

 

[boyraks]

I think that this comment is a little harsh - and unnecessary.

Playing this game to a high standard consistently is difficult.
Understanding how to play the game to a high standard consistently is even more difficult.
And explaining it to someone else is worse still.

There are many expert billiard players who would admit they have no idea how they do what they do (but they might mumble some stuff about ‘talent’ and ‘hard work’). Others make more of an effort to try to pin down what it is, and then to explain it to others. I think that these efforts should be welcomed.

And when attempting to explain the game, different people have different approaches. CJW has his unique style, as does for example Geno, whereas Dr Dave takes a very different approach. Of course there are many others.

If you don’t like the way one person is trying to explain what they know - or what they think they know – there are two options. If you believe that there may be some nuggets of information that can be extracted, then put up with their delivery style. If you do not think that there is likely to be anything useful on offer, or that extracting the useful bits will too difficult a task, then stop listening to them. Either way personal attacks or mockery is neither warranted nor helpful.

I have also yet to see anything like a comprehensive explanation of exactly how an expert player does what he does, and certainly not one written in a clinical, matter-of-fact, style. Nor do I expect to see one anytime soon. After the novice phase, this game is mainly in the mind, which is a dimly lit area – one that we see ‘through a glass, darkly’. We are not used to identifying exactly what is going on inside our heads at any point in time; and if we do get what might be insightful glimpses in that murky world, there is no common language available to help us to refine our thoughts and then to communicate them. Anyone who makes the attempt may stumble every now and again; but their efforts surely are to be applauded.

Best post in this thread so far. Kudos for being well wriitten.