No. The friction from the cloth, on the initial jump hit or the landing, will not cause enough frictional grab on the cue ball to impart any noticeable spin. Now the friction of the cloth can cause the cue ball to lose spin, but never gain.
Can you use follow on a jump shot?
- Thread starter BRussell
- Start date
No. The friction from the cloth, on the initial jump hit or the landing, will not cause enough frictional grab on the cue ball to impart any noticeable spin. Now the friction of the cloth can cause the cue ball to lose spin, but never gain.
If you hit the cue ball in the center it will gain follow from the cloth as it goes towards the object ball.
EDIT - I looked again at the slow mo videos, the cueball does have forward rotation on some of the shots, the jump shots I was picturing in my head were with the cue more than 45 degrees vertical, so likely what I wrote is not all correct about putting follow on the ball when jumping. If the cue is at a 45 degree angle or less, I can see it getting forward spin off the hit.
You can "follow" a ball forward with a draw stroke also. Just hit it soft enough that the cueball is rolling when it hits the object ball, and it will follow it.
But it's not a "follow" hit on the ball.
So, I'd like to see a real follow jump shot that accelerates after contact with spin, not one that has the forward momentum due to the speed of the cueball hitting a stationary object ball. Since the cueball has more energy in it from the hit, it will obviously go through the object ball on contact since the object ball sitting still does not have the force to overcome the cueball's forward motion, but that is not "follow".
When the thread said "follow on a jump shot", to me that reads like "cueball is spinning forward after it hits the object ball" just like a non-jump follow stroke. It does not mean that the cueball will go forward after contact, because we all know that even a center or draw shot if hit at the right speed for the distance will also do that.
I don't think you can hit a jump shot with a real follow stoke and effect, you'll end up jamming the cueball into the slate and hitting the cue.
But many of us have iPhones with that slow motion video, and we have many a good player to test this with, and plenty of tables. I'm up for gathering around a table and trying this.
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This is great...where are the non-believers.lol Oh, they forgot to watch the video.
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Please allow me to back up and attempt an answer using a different tact...
If we consider a normal cue elevation, lined up for max follow, and stroke with substantial speed, I think we all understand that the cue ball absolutely will jump (a little bit) and will most certainly follow the OB.
On the other extreme, a near vertical cue simply cannot contact the cue ball anywhere near the "top" (meaning highest elevation - or "center" from the cue's perspective) without trapping the cue ball. In other words, basically every vertically aligned massé or jump shot that results in a successful hit will result in some amount of immediate reverse spin on the cue ball.
So I think the correct answer to this question is:
Yes, you can induce forward spin on the cue ball when shooting a jump shot, but as the angle of cue elevation approaches vertical, the amount of possible immediate forward spin approaches zero.
What do you all think of that way of approaching the answer?
-Blake
If we consider a normal cue elevation, lined up for max follow, and stroke with substantial speed, I think we all understand that the cue ball absolutely will jump (a little bit) and will most certainly follow the OB.
On the other extreme, a near vertical cue simply cannot contact the cue ball anywhere near the "top" (meaning highest elevation - or "center" from the cue's perspective) without trapping the cue ball. In other words, basically every vertically aligned massé or jump shot that results in a successful hit will result in some amount of immediate reverse spin on the cue ball.
So I think the correct answer to this question is:
Yes, you can induce forward spin on the cue ball when shooting a jump shot, but as the angle of cue elevation approaches vertical, the amount of possible immediate forward spin approaches zero.
What do you all think of that way of approaching the answer?
-Blake
By the way, the jump shot at 3:57 in the above-linked video was shot with a full-length break cue (phenolic tip) and I think clearly demonstrates a significant amount of immediate forward spin (while airborne) as well as the "follow behavior" as the cue ball follows two rails and out, back towards the impeding ball.
The last shot in the video also shows a good amount of immediate forward spin, although both the CB and OB go flying off the table after the poorly aligned contact.
. EDIT: This last shot was also shot with my full-length break cue (with phenolic tip).
I'm really looking forward to shooting some video of this, possibly later today. I'll post a sneak preview of these shots if I'm able to capture anything worthwhile.
-Blake
The last shot in the video also shows a good amount of immediate forward spin, although both the CB and OB go flying off the table after the poorly aligned contact.
. EDIT: This last shot was also shot with my full-length break cue (with phenolic tip).I'm really looking forward to shooting some video of this, possibly later today. I'll post a sneak preview of these shots if I'm able to capture anything worthwhile.
-Blake
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No it will not gain follow. What happens is the reverse/back spin wears off and it gains the natural roll for that shot speed. Do not confuse the effects of spin and natural roll. Natural roll can carry the cue ball forward after contact, but it will not cause the cue to go forward on its own.
In order to get forward on the ball, the jump distance can only be so short. Any shorter and the angle of attack will trap the cue ball. If you're impeded by a ball 6" from the cue ball, I don't think anyone is going to get true force follow on the shot. On my shot this weekend I was ~15" or more from the impeding ball and 6'+ from my ball. Real easy to get force follow then. The problem is, most people don't attempt jumps that force follow is possible on. It's the old angle in, angle out. In order to not trap the cue ball, the angle of attack used is productive on long jumps only.
There's also a reason you don't see many people use follow on jumps, it's easier to jump the cue ball off the table. A lot more of the force used to jump to the cue ball is transferred into forward momentum. As we all know with breaking, all that forward momentum likes to take the cue ball off the table. There's a lot of misconceptions in this thread, a lot due to people who don't practice jumps but just know how to get a cue ball to jump. I'll use follow on maybe 1 out of every 150 jumps I do because it's far riskier than just center ball or lower. I don't recommend ever trying to a follow jump shot until you're capable of doing a stop jump shot at a distance of 6' or more. Only then will you have a true understanding of what it takes to jump.
Afraid you're mistaken about this. A sliding CB (no forward or backward rotation) will transfer all of its momentum and stop dead when it hits an OB straight on.
I've only heard follow used to mean forward rotation on the CB when it contacts an OB.
pj
chgo
I think I've identified the problem. They're confusing the difference between a stop shot which has no roll and effectively just slides to the ball and just stops, and a stop shot which one uses draw to eliminate speed at contact. Because of that they're confusing the way a jump shot stroke is different. There's about a nickel size area on the cue ball that can be used to reliably jump with. Within that area, it seems nearly impossible to actually trap the ball. Because that area is so much smaller in comparison to what one is used to with when shooting, people who don't know how to properly jump always over compensate. Always forgetting that the striking of the cue ball is more important than how much spin is to be used.
That nickel sized area doesn't change depending upon the angle of the jump either. It's the area being in the same spot that tells you whether you can use follow or not. When you line up to jump look at the center line of the cue through the cue ball, the same principles apply here as with a regular shot. If the line is above the center of the cue ball, you'll get follow, otherwise it'll stop or draw. When you combine that line of wanted attack, with the angle of the lowest possible jump over the impeding ball. The chances of the follow line being lower than your escape angle eliminates it from being possible. When it is possible there's a common connection to be found, distance. And since most people do not attempt many distance jumps, you end up with people who just don't have the full picture of understanding trying to explain things.
As I said in my post above, I think the common definition of "follow" is any forward rotation on the CB at contact with the OB. I don't believe how that happens is part of the definition.
I believe natural roll is spin (CB rotation) that causes the CB to go forward on its own. This is shown by a straight on follow shot, for instance, where the CB stops dead on contact and then "goes forward on its own" because of its forward rotation/spin.
I think all of this is right on. Good insight about longer jumps with follow.
pj
chgo
I didn't read all the posts....so maybe already discussed...
I took particular notice of a couple short distance jumps where cb had no spin at all..as though it were an airborne sliding stop shot.
How/where on cb/angle of attack? that caused that result instead of cb 'spin'?
Thanks OP...very cool video.
I took particular notice of a couple short distance jumps where cb had no spin at all..as though it were an airborne sliding stop shot.
How/where on cb/angle of attack? that caused that result instead of cb 'spin'?
Thanks OP...very cool video.
It's the same as the spinless stop shot. Center cue ball for the angle of attack combined with a center of the cue's tip hit. But unlike the stop shot, you aren't hitting across the felt so it doesn't need to be struck quite as hard as you think. It's why I said earlier that if you don't know what it takes to do a 6' jump stop shot, you won't know how to get force follow on a cue ball while jumping either.
To get ridiculously detailed (who, me?): I imagine you need to hit a tad below the CB's 3D center to counteract the "drag" of the cloth creating some forward rotation (like a normal stop shot from a bit of a distance). I'm guessing some of the slow forward rotation in SloMo's video is from this drag effect.
pj
chgo
To be honest, I don't remember even shooting those shots (nearly 6 years ago)... I shot some video today, but didn't have as much time as I thought I would, so I chose to focus on attempting to get forward spin on relatively short (~2 foot) full-ball jump shots.
Damn, those are tough. I did manage to hit a few pretty good, but as was mentioned before, that area you can hit on the cue ball between trapping it and getting "airborne stun" is TINY!
I'll post a few clips on YouTube late tonight after my pool league.
Great thread. I've really enjoyed this discussion!
-Blake
Damn, those are tough. I did manage to hit a few pretty good, but as was mentioned before, that area you can hit on the cue ball between trapping it and getting "airborne stun" is TINY!
I'll post a few clips on YouTube late tonight after my pool league.
Great thread. I've really enjoyed this discussion!
-Blake
Technically you shouldn't have to. Because the cue ball is being struck in such a manner that it's being pinched before jumping, the act of the jump cue coming downward into the cue ball should be enough force to counteract the drag of the cloth and prevent any forward spin. You're not pushing the ball forward, and you're slightly holding the backside of ball when it jumps. Those two actions are what makes understanding jumping so hard but easy.
I see what you're saying, although it seems it would depend on the jump angle, with pinching happening on steeper angles but maybe not on shallower ones.
pj
chgo
Finally got done syncing and processing the video clips.
Here is the final product:
https://youtu.be/HolPLrqvqhI
I hope this video is informative and educational (and a little bit beautiful).
Can you use follow on a jump shot? Yes. Yes, you can!
Thanks again for this discussion. I've really enjoyed it!
-Blake
Here is the final product:
https://youtu.be/HolPLrqvqhI
I hope this video is informative and educational (and a little bit beautiful).
Can you use follow on a jump shot? Yes. Yes, you can!
Thanks again for this discussion. I've really enjoyed it!
-Blake
very cool video Slomo you can really see the spin of the cue ball when you use a striped ball
Nice stuff, SloMo - thanks!
Any chance of seeing a still sideview of tip/CB contact?
pj
chgo
Any chance of seeing a still sideview of tip/CB contact?
pj
chgo