Pool's "Best Practices"

[ENGLISH!]

I think if someone has perfected a way of playing that includes some personal idiosyncrasies that became part of a player's game (for whatever reason, good or bad) then I agree it would probably be a mistake to try and change it. On the other hand, I would try to remove those things from a beginning player so that they have a better chance if improving in the fastest time.

I think Mark Wilson covers the subject well, if you have that book (it's an actual hard cover physical book :wink.

Regards,

Thanks for the book referral. I actually just noticed the wink.

I think that there is much...perhaps misuse of language at times, or misapplication or misspeaking that happens at times that can give the wrong impression.

What you call a 'personal idiosyncrasy' is what I & a player might call an 'individual fundamental'. One phrase sounds 'bad' while the other sounds much better.

Here's an example, 'one should have a solid stable stance'. That's a basic fundamental. One should stand with the feet at approximately 45* to the shot line. That is an interpretation & an offshoot statement from that earlier basic fundamental statement. An individual may have a solid stable stance at 60* or 30* or near or approximate to those.

To pick one type of stroke over others & to call that one a 'best practices' to me is presumptive & merely an opinion.

As I said, SmoothStroke's approach seems to be more appropriate. The best practice is to deliver the stroke accurately to the target. If an individual can do that with their natural type stroke after adhering to basic fundamentals that would enhance that, then that would be the 'best practices' method for them.

There has not been enough study to come to any real conclusions.

Look at all of the study that has gone into golf & they have not come up with one swing that is a 'best practices' golf swing.

If a pro player like CJ or SVB says something works for them but the book says otherwise, I'm going to try what is said to see if it also works for me. It might & it might not. That does not mean that it does not work. Obviously it works for them. Some want to call that their personal idiosyncrasy while I'll call it a personal fundamental.

We are not cloned machines in body nor mind. There are several methods to do different things. One individual does it better with one method than the other while another individual uses the other method better. They are both using the basic true fundamental but in a different personal fundamental manner.

Again I hope you can see & understand my points & sorry for the rant.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[JoeyA]

I wonder if you drop your elbow when you shoot like Lee Brett does, would the forward stroke be considered a push stroke?

JoeyA

I had to come back to this one last time.

I'm sticking to my guns when I said the backstroke is a pushing motion and the forward stroke is a pull.

Again:

Straightening the arm using the triceps is a push.
Bending the arm using the biceps is a pull.

I believe you are getting confused by the indirect object receiving the action.

What's being done to the indirect object has no affect on the type of action being performed.

You can pull or push something by both pulling or pushing it. That is to say I can push a boy by pulling him AND by pushing him.

Just because the cue is being pulled back doesn't mean I'm using a pulling motion to perform the action.

In Bob's analogy below the boy might be pushed but if I'm only engaging my biceps and bending my arm to do it then he is being pushed by a pull motion.

The orientation of the cue or the boy or anything has no relevance to what type of motion you are making with your body.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I like to feel like I'm "shooting out of my chest (center)"

I wonder if you drop your elbow when you shoot like Lee Brett does, would the forward stroke be considered a push stroke?

JoeyA

The cue does go forward away from his body. I'm not sure how that could be considered "pulling".

The game of pool is played in FRONT of the body, so it helps to keep the cue there. I like to feel like I'm "shooting out of my chest (center)" and this is definitely a pushing motion.

The wrists must be able to release correctly for this to be most effective for the player. Cocking the wrists up (like raising a hammer) does wonders for discovering what we do to create extreme speed and precision with the pool stroke.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Or baseball, and many other sports. There is a "method" to teach a baseball swing properly. And if every kid said, well, so and so does not do it exactly like that, we'd be sunk.

Well, so and so did it at one time. As he was developing his eye, his hand-eye coordination and pitch recognition, he might have deviated to a path later on that may have improved his hitting, but would not help others. Nobody knows for sure they are going to be a power hitter when learning the correct swing, or who is gonna be just a very good contact hitter, or who is gonna swing from their heels every time and hope for the best.

I mean, Keith McCready was a top notch pool player and won many pro tourneys, yet NOBODY would teach his stroke to someone, ever. No offense Keith, but there are a few baseball players swings I would never teach kids to copy either. But because the pro player had such quick hands, they could do something wrong, where as the other 99% of pro baseballs players could not copy it and succeed. But if someone said I could play like Keith if I switched, would I do it. Gosh darn right I would !!! But it would NEVER work for me and most others.

Some folks are just so freakish in talent, that it would never matter exactly how they did things, but even the "freaks" started somewhere.

This is why "YOU" will never be able to play golf as good as Jim Furyk, or baseball as good as Lou Gehrig, or pool as good as Efren...You are simply unable to comprehend what made them stand out !..Why would you think you could 'teach' anybody, anything ?...The bottom line is, and will always be, "RESULTS"...Learn to live with it !

PS..JoeyA..give it up !..You are only a notch above RJ, in your understanding of what makes a top pool player !

 

[Dan White]

This is why "YOU" will never be able to play golf as good as Jim Furyk, or baseball as good as Lou Gehrig, or pool as good as Efren...You are simply unable to comprehend what made them stand out !..Why would you think you could 'teach' anybody, anything ?...The bottom line is, and will always be, "RESULTS"...Learn to live with it !

Kind of funny because Efren is quoted as wondering how good he could have been if he had known better fundamentals when he was learning (maybe he was just being nice, I don't know). BTW, what was unusual about Gehrig's method of play?

 

[HawaiianEye]

Little changes can make a huge difference, especially if they're done systematically.

'

"when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change"

 

[CJ Wiley]

at the end of the day everyone has something to teacher us

"when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change"

Wise words, it does have everything to do with our perception. We can't change the "outside world," however, when we positively enhance our inside world, (our thinking processes), our lives instantly improve.....and keep improving every day, in every way (if we keep mentally fit).

This is especially true in improving our pool games. If I'm not growing and developing it is a sign to move on to something else.....so far, this has not needed to happen and I accredit this to giving lessons and working with other players.....this works wonders, at the end of the day everyone has something to teacher us. 'The Game is my Teacher'

 

[JoeyA]

This is why "YOU" will never be able to play golf as good as Jim Furyk, or baseball as good as Lou Gehrig, or pool as good as Efren...You are simply unable to comprehend what made them stand out !..Why would you think you could 'teach' anybody, anything ?...The bottom line is, and will always be, "RESULTS"...Learn to live with it !

PS..JoeyA..give it up !..You are only a notch above RJ, in your understanding of what makes a top pool player !

Dick,

Is part of your bitterness derived from the fact that very few if any people ever speak of you in glowing terms, as they do CJ Wiley and other professional players?

You're a sad excuse for a contributor to these type of discussions, imo.

JoeyA

 

[SJDinPHX]

Dick,

Is part of your bitterness derived from the fact that very few if any people ever speak of you in glowing terms, as they do CJ Wiley and other professional players?[ <----I have a few supporter's, but you are very good at ignoring them..And if they side with me, they just become another target for you ! :sorry: You're a sad excuse for a contributor to these type of discussions, imo.

JoeyA

Joey, what you percieve as 'bitterness', is actually my total lack of regard, or respect for the people who shamelessly brag, and promote themselves in almost EVERY post ! (except when they are busy defending themselves, from their "haters")
..Just because YOU place people like that on a lofty pedestal, does not mean everybody else does..or should !

You used to go completely berserk with endless commercials, touting the latest 'aiming system' guru !..I see you finally realized that was a "really sad excuse" for any meaningful contribution to the forum !..You have always resented me, for pointing that out...But, IMO you single-handedly got 'aiming systems' booted off the main forum ! (which has obviously been ignored, by the main offender) ..BTW Joey, I didn't always rag on your incredibly thin skin...(most of which you KNEW was in jest)..I have complimented you several times, on your commentating, and good speaking voice !..Thanks for your kind, thoughtful reciprocation !

I did not respond to all your little little digs at me, in this thread..but I will respond to THIS POST !..If you think I'm such a terrible person, just put me on ignore, and give up on all the little cheap shots !..You are exposing your true 'glowing' character, much more than you are mine ! :sorry:

Dick

 

[The Renfro]

"when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change"

May be my favorite quote from you =)

 

[The Renfro]

I wonder if you drop your elbow when you shoot like Lee Brett does, would the forward stroke be considered a push stroke?

JoeyA

Lee and many others who drop early I consider to be pushers... If I want to skewer you with a foil I won't be pulling it into you... I will be extending from a point of rest and pushing it thru you..... If I was making the same motion against the wall I would be doing a push up but there is no object we are pushing against.....

this is where CJ talking about it happening in front matters... If it's not happening there you likely play your best pool typing on AZB... Well crap the keyboard is in front of you there as well.... just spainin what I see and know.... not calling out the mouth breat,,,, errrr pullers.....

 

[(((Satori)))]

I wonder if you drop your elbow when you shoot like Lee Brett does, would the forward stroke be considered a push stroke?

JoeyA

Here was Miss Crimi's original post on the subject. I think she explains it well.

I disagree with your statement in bold. As I posted in the elbow drop thread, the rigid elbow stroke is a pulling motion. The elbow drop prior to impact stroke is a pushing motion. The elbow drop after impact stroke is a pulling motion up to and including impact, followed by a pushing motion after impact. I suspect that it's very possible that there could be two strokes involved in the elbow drop after impact stroke due to the change from pulling to pushing, so I'm not in favor of calling that a natural reaction or a best practice.

However, I think both a rigid elbow stroke and elbow drop before contact stroke are both legitimate and natural.

I think of the rigid elbow stroke as similar to a bicep curl. Also, the consistent pushing motion of an elbow drop prior to impact is also a natural and fluid motion.

 

[The Renfro]

Here was Miss Crimi's original post on the subject. I think she explains it well.

It's subjective to some point.... take a coil of rope and put the coil behind you... now move the coil to the front of you and you will learn the slip stroke motion as you PULL it thru..... Now that it's in front of you move it back behind you where it started.... By feeding it backwards... Still going to be a PULL... Push or pull depends on where the moment of inertia and mass is as far as I am concerned....... if all the weight is in front of the grip you are pushing... behind you are pulling.... The physiology doesn't really matter...

 

[(((Satori)))]

It's subjective to some point.... take a coil of rope and put the coil behind you... now move the coil to the front of you and you will learn the slip stroke motion as you PULL it thru..... Now that it's in front of you move it back behind you where it started.... By feeding it backwards... Still going to be a PULL... Push or pull depends on where the moment of inertia and mass is as far as I am concerned....... if all the weight is in front of the grip you are pushing... behind you are pulling.... The physiology doesn't really matter...

Sorry, wrong answer!
The "physiology" is all that matters when speaking of the motion of the player.

 

[ENGLISH!]

It's subjective to some point.... take a coil of rope and put the coil behind you... now move the coil to the front of you and you will learn the slip stroke motion as you PULL it thru..... Now that it's in front of you move it back behind you where it started.... By feeding it backwards... Still going to be a PULL... Push or pull depends on where the moment of inertia and mass is as far as I am concerned....... if all the weight is in front of the grip you are pushing... behind you are pulling.... The physiology doesn't really matter...

Hi Chris.

As you know a rope can't be pushed, at least not very far.

I asked the question earlier in this thread. What if the cue is held right at the balance point? CJ holds the cue well forward at times. His cue is probably weighted forward but there are some cues that are rather rear weighted.

So, if held at the balance point then where is the weight load? It would be easy to say that the cue is pulled back & pushed forward, but that does not take the angle of the elbow into consideration. Describing it that way the cue would be being 'pushed' when the angle is both contracting like a full pendulum SPF swing or extending like in a piston or piston J stroke. Those two are not the same & to infer that they are by saying that they both push the cue would be misleading IMO.

It would be much easier & more correct to me to define it by the biomechanics for discussion & descriptive purposes, but all that really matters is how the player himself feels about it.

If the angle of the elbow is extending then the hand/cue is being pushed away (from the shoulder) & if the angle is being contracted then the hand/cue is being pulled to (or toward the shoulder)

So, in the back stroke or swing the cue would be being pushed away from the shoulder & then on the return it would be being pulled back to or toward the shoulder & then depending on what happens with the hand & what that causes the elbow to do, would then dictate the rest.

If the hand swings up & toward the shoulder while the elbow stays still & the angle at the elbow is contracted then the cue is still being pulled or swung up.

If the hand moves straight & the elbow is allowed to drop to accommodate that & the angle at the elbow is extended (as it is in most all other sports) then the cue is being pushed.

To me the first is swinging the cue at the ball & the second is stroking the cue through the ball.

To me they are very different.

I hope you can see & understand my points. But, like I said, it is all about how the individual feels about it from the inside.

CJ as commented about feeling like you are 'hitting' the ball with the elbow. I've seen 2 or 3 that have come back rather quickly thanking him as it appears that that has helped them.

All the Best 2 You & Yours...& All,
Rick

 

[JoeyA]

Sorry Dick,
I see you that you often have a total lack of regard or respect even for people who never brag or promote themselves.

Besides, what's wrong with promoting yourself or others? I seldom criticize the AZB management primarily because this is the best pool forum on the planet but this is where IMO, the people in charge, have failed. Acquiescing to people who hate on others simply begets more of the same. In recent months, they have done more to muzzle the haters so that is a step in the right direction.

Be kind to yourself; allow those who are still blossoming to enjoy the fruits of their labor. Don't resent the fact that there are those whom others like and respect, but you don't. It's ok to dislike someone but you shouldn't follow them around on Internet forums just to rattle their cage. That's childish and it does nothing to enhance the sport that you have been a part of for so many years.

I have always appreciated positive comments about my commentary and speaking voice but I realize that there will always be those who enjoy my commentary and those who will not. It's kind of you to recognize my contribution to the sport and it is sincerely appreciated.

As you suggested to me, if you think that what others say or do is so terrible, just put them on ignore. I may ignore a dig here and there or I may just miss it but as for me, I don't "put anyone on ignore". That too is a childish thing to do. ;-)



You reminded me about a new product that I have used just recently that is quite exceptional but I will save that for its own thread but if you don't like what I have to say about it, you should just ignore it.

Best to you and yours,

JoeyA

Joey, what you percieve as 'bitterness', is actually my total lack of regard, or respect for the people who shamelessly brag, and promote themselves in almost EVERY post ! (except when they are busy defending themselves, from their "haters")
..Just because YOU place people like that on a lofty pedestal, does not mean everybody else does..or should !

You used to go completely berserk with endless commercials, touting the latest 'aiming system' guru !..I see you finally realized that was a "really sad excuse" for any meaningful contribution to the forum !..You have always resented me, for pointing that out...But, IMO you single-handedly got 'aiming systems' booted off the main forum ! (which has obviously been ignored, by the main offender) ..BTW Joey, I didn't always rag on your incredibly thin skin...(most of which you KNEW was in jest)..I have complimented you several times, on your commentating, and good speaking voice !..Thanks for your kind, thoughtful reciprocation !

I did not respond to all your little little digs at me, in this thread..but I will respond to THIS POST !..If you think I'm such a terrible person, just put me on ignore, and give up on all the little cheap shots !..You are exposing your true 'glowing' character, much more than you are mine ! :sorry:

Dick

 

[DTL]

......................

 

[(((Satori)))]

Kinesiology is the study of Movement or Motion of whole body parts. Physiology is the study of the function of the various body parts........more so on a molecular or chemical level.

Someone needs to create a poll on this push/pull controversy. Make it where AZ members with >1 yr join date or more can vote..........only one vote, one's vote made public.

Here's an example of what could be asked:

When in full stance with a standard grip/bridge setup:

a) moving the stick back (backstroke) is a pulling motion and moving the stick forward (forward stroke to hit the CB) is a pushing motion

b) moving the stick back (backstroke) is a pushing motion and moving the stick forward (forward stroke to hit the CB) is a pulling motion


DTL

Physiology was his word. I used it to communicate the thought to him.

 

[ENGLISH!]

In golf, one can 'swing' the club & hang on & either 'never release' the club head or release it well after contact with the ball.

Or... one can swing the club & release the club head 'through' the ball.

Both can have the feeling of pulling the club into the ball but they are extremely different.

When one extends the back arm it sends the club head on line longer & more 'through' the ball with that bit of 'pushing' motion.

I realize that golf & pool are not the same but if one looks at the 'back arm' alone there are similarities. The same can be said for putting if one puts 'with the back hand'

Best 2 All,
Rick

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Kinesiology is the study of Movement or Motion of whole body parts. Physiology is the study of the function of the various body parts........more so on a molecular or chemical level.

Someone needs to create a poll on this push/pull controversy. Make it where AZ members with >1 yr join date or more can vote..........only one vote, one's vote made public.

Here's an example of what could be asked:

When in full stance with a standard grip/bridge setup:

a) moving the stick back (backstroke) is a pulling motion and moving the stick forward (forward stroke to hit the CB) is a pushing motion

b) moving the stick back (backstroke) is a pushing motion and moving the stick forward (forward stroke to hit the CB) is a pulling motion


DTL

Why does it matter?

pj
chgo