SloMoHolic camera fund

The fastest contact you will have is ball to ball which is half a m/s... Phenolic break tip to cueball is .8 m/s.... Hard leather will be 1 m/s soft at slow speeds may reach 4m/s... I have a 1000fps camera and it works for most things pool related as far as impacts with leather tips are concerned but it's crap as far as resolution...

I'm not sure I understand how you can get those numbers using a camera that only shoots 1000 fps. Each frame would be 0.001 seconds long, so how can you determine that ball-ball collision (for example) is only half a frame long?

For example, using a 1000 fps camera, if a certain tip-ball collision had a duration of 0.0011 seconds, and the impact just so happened to occur right before the end of a particular frame, it could actually appear to be in contact for three frames. Repeated video tests would help, but there's no way to measure the duration with a precision of less than 0.001 second (1 frame). We'd simply need a higher frame rate to be more precise.

I'm not saying you're wrong, though. Maybe you used a different method to measure the durations?

As far as the resolution, yeah, I hear ya. At 1000 fps, my current cameras' resolutions are crap indeed.

I will gladly pitch in but I would really want to know more about the camera.. and the selection criteria... Faster than needed would be useful to SloMo for other things but I am not interested in other things... I want to see pool in good resolution and 1000fps

There are a couple of lengthy posts earlier in this thread that discuss this camera, as well as a brief discussion about alternative high speed cameras. You can also check it out at www.edgertronic.com . Specifically, here are some of the numbers at fairly high resolutions:

1280x1024 @ 494 FPS
1280x720 @ 701 FPS
866x672 @ 1000 FPS
640x480 @ 1849 FPS
1024x128 @ 4658 FPS

The very wide aspect ratios (like 1024x128 @ 4568 fps) would be great for filming cue/tip action at very high speed, since the motion is (basically) linear. We really don't need a 16:9 aspect ratio when a "strip" of video would suffice. I'm sure you know what I mean from your experience with your 1000 fps camera. This camera just does the same thing at a higher resolution and framerate.

One of the things that has been frustrating for me is not being able to get helpful slow motion video of the transmission of forces through the balls as they sit on various template racks (Accu-rack included). At 1000 fps, in one frame, the cue ball hasn't hit the rack yet, and in the next frame every single ball is moving. 10,000 fps or so would likely give us a lot of insight into what's happening and why (as well as how you might be able to improve the Accu-rack even further if possible). Just for fun, I'd also like to teach folks how to make the Magic Ball Rack do a little wave during the break. It's something that I figured out while filming hundreds of MBR break shots. I can't think of any use for it, but it probably affects the break in some as of yet unknown way...

Anyway, to get 1000 fps at 1080p, you'd need a camera from Vision Research's Phantom line, which starts in the tens of thousands of dollars (or rental for $5000+ per day). The Edgertronic camera that we're considering is capable of 700 fps @ 720p for just under $6000.

ohh I also forgot interpolation software where 100fps can be turned into 10000 fps... not looked in a few months but I think $6000 may be wayyyyy more than needed... Wanted?? well.....

Twixtor and similar interpolation programs do a decent job of emulating slow motion, but only with relatively slow movements (like someone jumping up and down). Think of a firecracker - filmed at traditional 30fps, it's there in one frame, and completely destroyed in the next. How would Twixtor "know" what happened in between? Filling 999 frames with a gradual "morph" from unexploded to exploded simply doesn't work. Anything it could possibly generate is simply make-believe - it will never be the same as a true high speed camera. That being said, as long as you don't push it too far, Twixtor and others do a pretty decent job. As long as you don't go too far over about triple (or maybe quadruple) the original framerate, it looks pretty good.

I'm not "against" Twixtor or anything - I've even used it (and others, like VirtualDub/AVISynth) to "turn" a 240 fps video into an emulation of nearly 1000 fps, and it looked okay. But that was just a video of a cricket jumping away from a tarantula - again, a relatively slow movement when compared to tip and ball interactions.

Thanks,

-Blake
 
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... For example, using a 1000 fps camera, if a certain tip-ball collision had a duration of 0.0011 seconds, and the impact just so happened to occur right before the end of a particular frame, it could actually appear to be in contact for three frames. Repeated video tests would help, but there's no way to measure the duration with a precision of less than 0.001 second (1 frame). We'd simply need a higher frame rate to be more precise. ...
Well, if you could exactly repeat the impact and sweep the timing of the contact with respect to the camera trigger, it would be possible to piece together (interleave) multiple video captures with the proper order to get a higher effective frame rate. If the timing was random but the impact perfectly repeated, you could sort the clips by the position of the tip relative to the frame.

Something similar is done when capturing repetitive voltage waveforms with a sampler that can only be run at slow rate. With the right trigger setup a sampler that runs at 50kHz can seem to be running at 1 terasample/second. Think stroboscope.
 
Well, if you could exactly repeat the impact and sweep the timing of the contact with respect to the camera trigger, it would be possible to piece together (interleave) multiple video captures with the proper order to get a higher effective frame rate. If the timing was random but the impact perfectly repeated, you could sort the clips by the position of the tip relative to the frame.

Something similar is done when capturing repetitive voltage waveforms with a sampler that can only be run at slow rate. With the right trigger setup a sampler that runs at 50kHz can seem to be running at 1 terasample/second. Think stroboscope.

I think I kind of understand what that means, but it sure seems simpler to just shoot the video at 10,000 fps to begin with. :)

I'm not sure, but one other thing that may differentiate high speed video like this from the stroboscope is that in most cases, the camera has the shutter open for nearly the entire duration of the sample period (i.e. 1/800th of a second at 1000 fps), whereas the stroboscope example freezes the momentary action with a very short-duration flash. In other words, the stroboscope is almost always "off", whereas the camera is almost always "on."

Then again, the only stroboscope I've worked with is the automotive kind. I have no idea how a repetitive voltage waveform sampler works. lol

Perhaps if I set my shutter speed to 1/60,000th of a second and shot at 1000 fps, I could achieve that kind of effect. I don't know...

I'd love to learn more about this concept. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

-Blake
 
... Perhaps if I set my shutter speed to 1/60,000th of a second and shot at 1000 fps, I could achieve that kind of effect. I don't know... ..
Yes, you have to have a fast shutter (and/or flash). Do two runs at 1000 fps and interleave the frames. If you get lucky, they will be .5ms apart in timing. Repeat. Of course the ball and stick should be in the same rotation for each take.

A coworker had a fast flash and got what appeared to be a video of an exploding water balloon by taking single shots of four different balloons exploding at slightly different times. I think he triggered the flash from the pin actuator.
 
I'm not sure I understand how you can get those numbers using a camera that only shoots 1000 fps. Each frame would be 0.001 seconds long, so how can you determine that ball-ball collision (for example) is only half a frame long?

For example, using a 1000 fps camera, if a certain tip-ball collision had a duration of 0.0011 seconds, and the impact just so happened to occur right before the end of a particular frame, it could actually appear to be in contact for three frames. Repeated video tests would help, but there's no way to measure the duration with a precision of less than 0.001 second (1 frame). We'd simply need a higher frame rate to be more precise.

I'm not saying you're wrong, though. Maybe you used a different method to measure the durations?

As far as the resolution, yeah, I hear ya. At 1000 fps, my current cameras' resolutions are crap indeed.



There are a couple of lengthy posts earlier in this thread that discuss this camera, as well as a brief discussion about alternative high speed cameras. You can also check it out at www.edgertronic.com . Specifically, here are some of the numbers at fairly high resolutions:

1280x1024 @ 494 FPS
1280x720 @ 701 FPS
866x672 @ 1000 FPS
640x480 @ 1849 FPS
1024x128 @ 4658 FPS

The very wide aspect ratios (like 1024x128 @ 4568 fps) would be great for filming cue/tip action at very high speed, since the motion is (basically) linear. We really don't need a 16:9 aspect ratio when a "strip" of video would suffice. I'm sure you know what I mean from your experience with your 1000 fps camera. This camera just does the same thing at a higher resolution and framerate.

One of the things that has been frustrating for me is not being able to get helpful slow motion video of the transmission of forces through the balls as they sit on various template racks (Accu-rack included). At 1000 fps, in one frame, the cue ball hasn't hit the rack yet, and in the next frame every single ball is moving. 10,000 fps or so would likely give us a lot of insight into what's happening and why (as well as how you might be able to improve the Accu-rack even further if possible). Just for fun, I'd also like to teach folks how to make the Magic Ball Rack do a little wave during the break. It's something that I figured out while filming hundreds of MBR break shots. I can't think of any use for it, but it probably affects the break in some as of yet unknown way...

Anyway, to get 1000 fps at 1080p, you'd need a camera from Vision Research's Phantom line, which starts in the tens of thousands of dollars (or rental for $5000+ per day). The Edgertronic camera that we're considering is capable of 700 fps @ 720p for just under $6000.



Twixtor and similar interpolation programs do a decent job of emulating slow motion, but only with relatively slow movements (like someone jumping up and down). Think of a firecracker - filmed at traditional 30fps, it's there in one frame, and completely destroyed in the next. How would Twixtor "know" what happened in between? Filling 999 frames with a gradual "morph" from unexploded to exploded simply doesn't work. Anything it could possibly generate is simply make-believe - it will never be the same as a true high speed camera. That being said, as long as you don't push it too far, Twixtor and others do a pretty decent job. As long as you don't go too far over about triple (or maybe quadruple) the original framerate, it looks pretty good.

I'm not "against" Twixtor or anything - I've even used it (and others, like VirtualDub/AVISynth) to "turn" a 240 fps video into an emulation of nearly 1000 fps, and it looked okay. But that was just a video of a cricket jumping away from a tarantula - again, a relatively slow movement when compared to tip and ball interactions.

Thanks,

-Blake

I am definitely in for at least a hunert.... Thanks for the run down as the devil is always in the details... I am interested in tip and shaft interactions at medium and slowwww speed if you are going to analyze the break and ball to ball interactions you will definitely need more than 1000fps... Was limited by my interest... Carry on :embarrassed2:

Chris
 
Bumping this back up... Not opposed to helping Slomo out since he is going to be doing filming of the things we are all interested in.....
 
I am definitely in for at least a hunert.... Thanks for the run down as the devil is always in the details... I am interested in tip and shaft interactions at medium and slowwww speed if you are going to analyze the break and ball to ball interactions you will definitely need more than 1000fps... Was limited by my interest... Carry on :embarrassed2:

Chris

Once I get my share together I'll contact the people that said they would donate so far and see what we have.

We ended up using the proceeds from that laptop on our week trip with the kids after SBE but I got more on sale, will just take another week or two to get the money in.
 
SloMoHollic,

My request is not as hard as you may have assumed.
Here is a link of a video I made yesterday.
My back stroke is longer than needed but acceptable.
Shorter the better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4PNAEb0VoI

I would like to see how long the tip stays in contact with the cue ball with a short stroke accelerating through the cue ball position with draw.

Thanks
 
Tip hardness is relative at medium speeds and under to the amount of time the tip stays on the ball....

That's one of the things I believe to be true but so far I haven't seen any facts to support what I believe.
 
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I'm still very interested in SloMo getting this camera.
...I'm pledging 100$ if we can get this together.

I feel that the great spin shots involve decelerating at the cue ball so the tip stays in
contact with whitey slightly longer.....nanoseconds?

The camera doesn't lie....I was caught on a stop-action camera on a power follow...
...back in the 80s....It was startling what my cue and bridge hand were doing.
.....I never knew I did that till it was caught on camera.


60 guys at 100$ or 120 at 50$.....let's do it
 
That's one of the things I believe to be true but so I haven't seen any facts to support what I believe.

The ruskies did an experiment at medium speed a phenolic tip was about the same at hard or medium at .8 milliseconds... A medium tip went to 2ms if I recall correctly... I have the information here somewhere will post it tonight or tomorrow so your belief has been proven to be factual.....
 
The ruskies did an experiment at medium speed a phenolic tip was about the same at hard or medium at .8 milliseconds... A medium tip went to 2ms if I recall correctly... I have the information here somewhere will post it tonight or tomorrow so your belief has been proven to be factual.....
FYI, lots of info and videos dealing with tip contact time and how it varies with shot speed and tip hardness (including a link to the Russian stuff) can be found on the cue tip contact time resource page.

Enjoy,
Dave
 
Nice quality. Do you have the specs for that camera? What was the frame rate?
Many of those Russian slow-mo clips were filmed at 24,000 FPS. More info and clips are available here:

http://dbkcues.ru/2011/06/12/another-couple-of-hs-video-now-24-000-fps/?lang=en
http://dbkcues.ru/2011/05/28/the-first-russian-experience-with-high-speed-video-hs-video/?lang=en
http://dbkcues.ru/2011/05/28/new-portion-of-the-hs-video-follow-and-draw-shot/?lang=en

I have embeds and links to all of their stuff in pertinent resource pages in the FAQ area of my website.

Enjoy,
Dave
 
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