WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[Patrick Johnson]

The reality is that more spin, which seems to be the goal of this technique...is created by increasing acceleration.

This isn't quite true on two counts:

1. I think you must mean increasing speed, which you can do with or without increasing acceleration - but that's a nitpicky difference.

2. To get more spin action you need to increase the spin-to-speed ratio, not just the RPMs. Just increasing stroke speed increases RPMs but also increases CB speed, so the spin-to-speed ratio remains the same. You only increase the spin-to-speed ratio by hitting farther from center, not by just hitting harder/faster.

pj
chgo

 

[cfrandy]

Except for the last shot, the video and graphs show that maximum speed is achieved before impact.

I'm guessing that acceleration is about constant until just before impact where it decreases, causing the speed to level off.

The difference between speed and acceleration might seem nitpicky, but it helps to understand stroke dynamics and tip/ball interaction.

pj
chgo

The "before" in the video was 1/3000 of a sec! For all practical purposes I think you could say at impact. I doubt if anyone here is capable of noticing the difference even using ordinary video cameras! Whether anyone is capable of intentionally accelerating the cue by ANY matter at impact consistently every time they shoot is the question I would be asking. The next question I would ask is why? IMHO, few shots require a "power" stroke.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The "before" in the video was 1/3000 of a sec!

It's an important 1/3000 of a second (which illustrates one of the benefits of a pendulum swing*). For that brief period the cue is moving at a pretty constant speed, making speed control easier. On the other hand, "accelerating through" the CB means the speed is changing right up to contact, making speed control more difficult.

pj
chgo

*Another related benefit of the pendulum stroke is that the cue tip also moves in a relatively straight line for that brief moment, so tip accuracy is also more likely.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I can go from loose to tight and create incredible acceleration.

The reality is that more spin, which seems to be the goal of this technique...is created by increasing acceleration. The problem a lot of players have is they hear torque and tension and when they shoot their grip goes from loose to tight through the ball. This would absolutely cause a decrease in acceleration. However, if your grip is always tight(er) or always loose than it doesnt f**kin matter. A player can use any type of system for aim, stroke, banks or kicks and it wont make a giant amount of difference in the long run. Find a technique and stick to it.

This isn't true at all, I can go from loose to tight and create incredible acceleration.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the wrist doesn't appear to move because of the bridge hand.

Well, I don't know about you guys, but I pride myself on my open mind and trying anything once. I've tried every aiming system there is, and almost every technique that I've seen described on Azb. I'm not going to lie to you, some of it was pure bullshit, but politics and forum etiqette prevents me from really conveying what I feel about them. Nobody will post a video of this techique up close, so I had to test the hammer grip for myself, more thoroughly than before. After reading this thread again (not all of it, but CJ's post and some others) I gave the hammer grip/technique another try today.
I must say I'm a bit baffled by people's reluctance to even try something they have such strong opinions about? It's not hard drugs people, you can stop after the first try.
I understand that not everybody wants to shell out 80 dollars for a DVD or whatever, but for something that's free, I don't really see the harm.

For both techniques I find them easier to do while relaxed in both the hand and arm, at least at first.
First the hammer/tennis racket grip: This grip achieves good control of cue direction, due to the cue lying in a grove in the hand. The stroking action itself is not a pendulum, but more of a piston action. It definitely worked best for me when the forarm is forward of perpendicular at contact. Does it work? Yes, surprisingly well, given that it is a relatively new stroke for me. It definitely worked best with a relaxed but firm grip pressure and any attempt at a death grip seemed to make it less precise. It was perfectly possible to perform in a snooker stance, which is a plus.

The hammer action is definitely a real thing. I wonder if any of the detractors actually tried it, and if so, what exactly they did? My problems occured I think because I focused on the wrist instead of the fingers. I worked best for me when I didn't cock the wrist forward all the way, but kept it in a more neutral position. As I bring the cue forward I squeeze the cue with my fingers starting from the thumb/index finger and in a wave moving backwards (in seqence from the index to the pinky). It works best if you let the finger action pull the cue forward, instead of trying to pull the cue forward with the arm and then "slapping on" the finger action at the end. The wrist will automatically cock backward for me without any thought. This will accellerate the cue, but having girly wrists and slender fingers (for a guy) I didn't get much benefit from it. Someone with strong fingers will probably get more out of it.
In summary:

Hammer grip + Good control of cue direction, can easily be made quite smooth with little practice
Hammer grip - Not a pendulum stroke (so you will need some pracise with it if that is what you are used to), Cue position best forward of perpendicular (might need some stance adjustments), To me it seems to "deaden" the ball action a bit, that might not be the case, but the feel is definitely different from a normal stroke

Hammer action + Does seem to boost cue speed a bit (might be a lot if you are strong), Good for rail shots, because it puts pressure downward it lessens the chance of a miscue.

Hammer action - Harder to keep cue in groove, Cue will dip more downward with more pressure on the bridgehand (if your bridgehand isn't solid that might be a minus, for shots from the rail, it's a plus), Harder to keep action smooth. For me it tends to "jerk" the cue a bit. Might be lack of practice.

This was my attempt at an honest and fair review, and should be seen as such, not as an attack or an infomercial. You are welcome to criticise it as you please. Just FYI i will stick to my regular technique...

Remember, the wrist doesn't appear to move because of the bridge hand. It does produce a consistent pressure and the tip will continue down towards the table on a descending path (provided your cue is angled down slightly).

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Drop The Rock:
...grip goes from loose to tight through the ball. This would absolutely cause a decrease in acceleration.

CJ:
This isn't true at all, I can go from loose to tight and create incredible acceleration.

CJ's right about this. Tightening the grip tends to move the hand/fingers forward, which adds acceleration.

pj
chgo

 

[Straightpool_99]

...............

 

[CJ Wiley]

I could easily give myself "the 7 ball" the way I was playing

I think the confusion is in the terminology. Grip vs stroke! It IS possible to use a "hammer" grip on the cue, but it is NOT possible to use a "hammer" stroke such as in hammering a nail! Or at least, this is what I most would think a "hammer stroke" to be. Just as in golf, many teachers would describe the moment of impact with the ball as "hammering a nail". I think someone else said this too, the motions in pool are completely opposite. When you hammer a nail, the wrist goes from radial deviation to ulnar deviation in a downward (or backward) motion. When you "stroke" a cue with wrist action, the wrist goes from ulnar deviation to radial deviation in a forward (or upward) motion. If the video YOU posted is to provide the clues then here CJ's stroke in sequence. You will notice his stroke is indeed a pendulum stroke and the heel of his palm appears to never leave the butt of the cue. This not to say he might cock his wrist for a more powerful shot on rare occasion (other than break), but it is not his normal stroke. At least not in this video!

Also remember this was the first tournament I'd played in almost 8 years. It was the US OPEN and although I finished 9th, my game was clearly not even 95%.

I really didn't start taking the game seriously again until about 3 -4 years ago...I could easily give myself "the 7 ball" the way I was playing back when this picture was taken.

 

[West Point 1987]

CJ's right about this. Tightening the grip tends to move the hand/fingers forward, which adds acceleration.

pj
chgo

Good post. This has been my observation and experience too.

 

[Drop The Rock]

This isn't true at all, I can go from loose to tight and create incredible acceleration.

That "technique" also goes against almost every teacher and instructor in the history of the game. By tensing up you inherently cause a decrease in momentum. YOU might be able to do it after shooting thousands upon thousands of balls, but it goes against what beginners should be taught and is a technique that is for all intents and purposes is unnecessary and unorthodox.

 

[DTL]

.......................

 

[CJ Wiley]

The game is designed so we can improve every day

CJ has been working with me for a time or two and has incorporated the "hammer" stroke into my routine. You can call it whatever suites you as far as hammer, grip, stroke.....whatever. Basically, if you would hold your cue out in front of you and grip the butt of the cue much like you would hold a hammer, then cock the wrist by pulling it back toward the shoulder and bringing the tip of your cue up toward the ceiling. This tightens the muscles in the forearm, bicep's, and shoulder. All of this tension is released at impact when the cue tip meets the cue ball. A very powerful stroke when done properly.

Yes, all we're really doing is taking away the unnecessary motion in the stoke and keying on what really matters. "Cutting away the fat" is what Hank Haney used to say regarding the golf swing.

So many players make all kinds of wasted motions to hit the cue ball.

This is fine, and they can play pretty well doing this, however, I doubt if they ever reach their full potential.

The game is designed so we can improve every day - when this isn't happening there's probably a core reason....usually located in the feet (foundation) or hands (bridge, or release of the cue at impact).

 

[CJ Wiley]

the wrist position enables the player to maximize the use of the hand/fingers

Yes. As I said a few post back, you're doing this with your fingers......not your wrist.

I certainly don't hold the cue with my wrist.

However, the wrist position enables the player to maximize the use of the hand/fingers.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Demonstrating these things takes away all doubt

This is exactly how the pool cue is gripped (look at the shape of the hand on the tennis racket) as CJ explains it. Sorry you don't see the similarity.
Starts at the 2 min mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdRNeETSAaE

Have a good day and play well.

John

Yes, you'll notice the transfer of pressure. I can do this with any type grip, when teaching I will model the students grip so that they can see exactly how it's done. Demonstrating these things takes away all doubt, no one can argue with what I can show on the pool table. In writing, of course, anyone can argue about any point they choose...such is life.

 

[cfrandy]

Also remember this was the first tournament I'd played in almost 8 years. It was the US OPEN and although I finished 9th, my game was clearly not even 95%.

I really didn't start taking the game seriously again until about 3 -4 years ago...I could easily give myself "the 7 ball" the way I was playing back when this picture was taken.

Point well taken, I believe someone else said that this stroke was not indicative of your current sroke.

 

[Drop The Rock]

This isn't quite true on two counts:

1. I think you must mean increasing speed, which you can do with or without increasing acceleration - but that's a nitpicky difference.

2. To get more spin action you need to increase the spin-to-speed ratio, not just the RPMs. Just increasing stroke speed increases RPMs but also increases CB speed, so the spin-to-speed ratio remains the same. You only increase the spin-to-speed ratio by hitting farther from center, not by just hitting harder/faster.

pj
chgo

I refer to acceleration because the cue does not simply travel at a constant speed throughout the final stroke. This is especially more noticeable when trying to achieve faster 'speed'. Also I have noticed that a smooth acceleration has a tendency to impart more spin with less effort.

I do agree with your second point completely it just seems that most people on this particular thread can't get to that threshold.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

The hammer action is definitely a real thing. I wonder if any of the detractors actually tried it, and if so, what exactly they did?

Back in the early days of this thread, I mentioned to CJ that his hammer technique reminded me of the Kali stick thrust that I learned over 20 years ago when I was studying Filipino and Indonesian stick fighting. CJ was all over that idea, and claimed that it is very similar (maybe At Large can find the interchange, I'm too disinterested in all this to look). I commented that it was a very powerful stick fighting technique, but I couldn't see the application in a pool stroke.

But I tried it anyway, essentially applying a Kali stick thrust to the CB during the last portion of the stroke. I had to get away from my normal grip and hold the cue like an escrima stick, which is basically how CJ holds his cue. I was unimpressed. It did not deliver any of the promised cue action, was uncomfortable to stroke that way, and I saw nothing but a decrease in CB velocity after the hit. I did see an application for straightening out a stroke, kinda like a Band-Aid for a sick stroke. But it felt lifeless to me, so I gave up on it after a few hours.

In the interest of science, I just went down to the table and fired several table-length shots up the rail at maximum velocity, maybe fifty shots with each grip with varying angles from near straight to about a half ball hit.. My normal grip with a relatively long bridge, loose grip on the cue, resting primarily on my middle finger, and employing a distinct pause and a fair amount of wrist action won the velocity contest IMO. Not by a huge margin, but the CB seemed to explode off the tip (maybe I'll try it again with the Break App). Accuracy with an unfamiliar grip was surprisingly similar. I made about 80% with each grip Not great, but I'm not a great player, and I wasn't even warmed up yet.

The hammer (Kali) stroke ended up hurting my wrist. I would never use it to warp balls in, it is very inefficient for that as I tried it. Mostly, I think it's a useful technique for short accurate stop shots when my regular stroke is faltering and I can't figure out why. Used this way it makes a nice, compact and accurate jab stroke that helps keep the CB from getting away from me, giving good speed control as well.

I will say this, the wrist motion in a proper Kali thrust is not something you'd easily pick up on video. It is a subtle repositioning of the wrist bones that lends a downward motion to the stick. It is felt much easier than it is seen. When you got it right you know it, and your opponent knows it even better... even through the pads. How this works to my understanding would not work the same on a CB because that thing is long gone before it can feel my mass penetrating it. A human is a spongey thing compared to a phenolic resin CB, so it feels every last bit of force I am applying. This is why I think I works for some things in life (like fighting), but not for pool... at least not in the way it been touted.

 

[CJ Wiley]

When I played in that tournament, I was not even practicing very much

Point well taken, I believe someone else said that this stroke was not indicative of your current sroke.

No, not at all. When I played in that tournament, I was not even practicing very much. To get 9th-12th in the US OPEN in my condition was somewhat of a miracle.

Even when I'm struggling I have enough tournament/gambling experience to play pretty well. However, in my mind I don't have confidence, and that makes a big difference when you're actually trying to win a major tournament.

I had to go back and rebuild my game, and made 3 videos about my experience. My goal was to share everything I had to do to get back into top form. 'Billiards Inside Secrets' shows all the drills and talks about the "hammer stroke" and how I learned it from martial arts and other games.

"The Touch of Inside' was something I wasn't going to share with the general public, and decided it needed to be released to those that wanted to learn TOI.

The TIP BANKING SYSTEM is probably my personal favorite, it has 43 chapters on how to create angles using only the tip and a reference (center or edge) off the object ball.....the diamonds show the player how this all connects. The perfection of the game really shows in this video, without the ideal geometry this system would not be possible.

 

[Straightpool_99]

....................

 

[CJ Wiley]

There's a BIG similarity between true martial arts and pocket billiards

Back in the early days of this thread, I mentioned to CJ that his hammer technique reminded me of the Kali stick thrust that I learned over 20 years ago when I was studying Filipino and Indonesian stick fighting. CJ was all over that idea, and claimed that it is very similar (maybe At Large can find the interchange, I'm too disinterested in all this to look). I commented that it was a very powerful stick fighting technique, but I couldn't see the application in a pool stroke.

But I tried it anyway, essentially applying a Kali stick thrust to the CB during the last portion of the stroke. I had to get away from my normal grip and hold the cue like an escrima stick, which is basically how CJ holds his cue. I was unimpressed. It did not deliver any of the promised cue action, was uncomfortable to stroke that way, and I saw nothing but a decrease in CB velocity after the hit. I did see an application for straightening out a stroke, kinda like a Band-Aid for a sick stroke. But it felt lifeless to me, so I gave up on it after a few hours.

In the interest of science, I just went down to the table and fired several table-length shots up the rail at maximum velocity, maybe fifty shots with each grip with varying angles from near straight to about a half ball hit.. My normal grip with a relatively long bridge, loose grip on the cue, resting primarily on my middle finger, and employing a distinct pause and a fair amount of wrist action won the velocity contest IMO. Not by a huge margin, but the CB seemed to explode off the tip (maybe I'll try it again with the Break App). Accuracy with an unfamiliar grip was surprisingly similar. I made about 80% with each grip Not great, but I'm not a great player, and I wasn't even warmed up yet.

The hammer (Kali) stroke ended up hurting my wrist. I would never use it to warp balls in, it is very inefficient for that as I tried it. Mostly, I think it's a useful technique for short accurate stop shots when my regular stroke is faltering and I can't figure out why. Used this way it makes a nice, compact and accurate jab stroke that helps keep the CB from getting away from me, giving good speed control as well.

I will say this, the wrist motion in a proper Kali thrust is not something you'd easily pick up on video. It is a subtle repositioning of the wrist bones that lends a downward motion to the stick. It is felt much easier than it is seen. When you got it right you know it, and your opponent knows it even better... even through the pads. How this works to my understanding would not work the same on a CB because that thing is long gone before it can feel my mass penetrating it. A human is a spongey thing compared to a phenolic resin CB, so it feels every last bit of force I am applying. This is why I think I works for some things in life (like fighting), but not for pool... at least not in the way it been touted.

Yes, Mary Avina is an expert with the Kali fighting sticks and she directed the 'Billiard Inside Secrets' where I show how to do the Hammer Stroke. I spin the "Fire Balls" and have studied 18 different weapons through the years. There's a BIG similarity between true martial arts and pocket billiards. Anyone that's been involved in both will agree.

I don't think anyone can just read about the Hammer Stroke's description and do it properly. There's a huge advantage in giving private lessons, I can demonstrate how it's done in several different ways. The key is cocking your wrist, and the chain reaction that this creates in the overall stroke and how the shoulder/arm/wrist/hand/fingers connect.