Inside VS Outside

[HawaiianEye]

Some people favor inside, some favor outside, some use both. From what I've noticed from playing people for years and years and watching on TV and stream, it seems that the majority of people are sort of "scared" of inside for some reason and are much more comfortable using outside.

I have been watching a lot of the streams lately and the announcers seem like they are "shocked" when somebody hits a ball good and uses inside...like it is something SPECIAL. They almost never say anything of the sort when people use outside.

Why is that?

I prefer to use inside if I can and have the choice, but I switch up depending upon the shot and if I have to change the angle to get back inside.

I haven't tried EVERY shot on the table, but I think there are some shots that you can make with inside that would be EXTREMELY hard or impossible with outside. I don't think there is a shot on the table that you can't make with inside, if the shot can even be made.

Some examples would be shots like below or any shot that is similar.

Would you shoot any of the shots below using outside? I'm talking to MAKE A BALL, not playing a safe or a bank. I can make all these balls (maybe not on the first shot) using inside, but I would hesitate to use outside, unless that was my only choice. I don't mean run the balls in the layout, I mean shooting any ball as it lies in the picture from where the cue ball is.

 

[336Robin]

Inside/Outside

Some people favor inside, some favor outside, some use both. From what I've noticed from playing people for years and years and watching on TV and stream, it seems that the majority of people are sort of "scared" of inside for some reason and are much more comfortable using outside.

I have been watching a lot of the streams lately and the announcers seem like they are "shocked" when somebody hits a ball good and uses inside...like it is something SPECIAL. They almost never say anything of the sort when people use outside.

Why is that?

I prefer to use inside if I can and have the choice, but I switch up depending upon the shot and if I have to change the angle to get back inside.

I haven't tried EVERY shot on the table, but I think there are some shots that you can make with inside that would be EXTREMELY hard or impossible with outside. I don't think there is a shot on the table that you can't make with inside, if the shot can even be made.

Some examples would be shots like below or any shot that is similar.

Would you shoot any of the shots below using outside? I'm talking to MAKE A BALL, not playing a safe or a bank. I can make all these balls (maybe not on the first shot) using inside, but I would hesitate to use outside, unless that was my only choice. I don't mean run the balls in the layout, I mean shooting any ball as it lies in the picture from where the cue ball is.

I think that the reason fewer use Inside is that Outside can be said to Assist and even hitting a little thick it has some give to it, where as Inside is also referred as Holdup English and does not assist the shot but bites at it. Its the nature of the spin I think that makes it a demon because you have to have any allowances you make very much correct if not overcut a bit. Any under cut and you usually miss.

I play my Inside shots toward the side of the pocket making sure I plan for some squirt which will correct them back towards the center of the pocket and I miss few of them but still when I crank down on stroke Inside can be a monster to deal with but very necessary to play a full game of pool.

I use all forms of English although I am not a practitioner of TOI. I use center ball just fine and I have run lots of balls using TOI.

As I play One Pocket if I find I need...holdup....Inside I use it and properly applied to cut shots Outside can be used to hold the cue ball you just don't stroke hard. I use a lot of FHE and some BHE but knowing the allowances for parallel applied English are a great help.

 

[HawaiianEye]

I use all forms of English although I am not a practitioner of TOI. I use center ball just fine and I have run lots of balls using TOI.

Can you make any of the balls in the layout using center ball or outside English?

If so, can you do it more times than you can with inside?

 

[skins]

Position is everything. Speed control is king. That said though I use inside when needed, I use outside the majority of the time on almost every shot even these banks. It allows me to hit more of the ball and let's my speed control to take over.

The only time I reconsider is when the last ball is running down close on a rail. I use inside to make sure if I'm a little wide on the shot the ball has the correct spin on it to fall and not jar up in the pocket... I thank Dick Weaver for that little lesson many moon ago...:smile:

 

[BRussell]

Outside corrects the cut angle, inside throws it off even further.

Shoot those shots with the cue ball as it lies? There's not a single even half-way decent shot there.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Position is everything. Speed control is king. That said though I use inside when needed, I use outside the majority of the time on almost every shot even these banks. It allows me to hit more of the ball and let's my speed control to take over.

The only time I reconsider is when the last ball is running down close on a rail. I use inside to make sure if I'm a little wide on the shot the ball has the correct spin on it to fall and not jar up in the pocket... I thank Dick Weaver for that little lesson many moon ago...:smile:

Position is the key, no matter what you are using and speed control is crucial. I find my speed control is better if I am "floating" the ball around the table rather than spinning it. If I float it around the table angles, I'm relying on my stroke and speed control to maneuver the ball around rather than spin. In order to keep a consistent speed stroke, I try to keep somewhat the same angles on all my shots. That way I'm always hitting quite "full" on the object ball and "feeling" the hit and weight of the cue ball.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Shoot those shots with the cue ball as it lies? There's not a single even half-way decent shot there.

If they were easy (decent) shots we wouldn't be talking about them.

These are "circus" shots that come up in the game and sometimes you have pretty much "no choice" but to shoot at them.

Whenever that happens, I'm going INSIDE.

 

[skins]

Position is the key, no matter what you are using and speed control is crucial. I find my speed control is better if I am "floating" the ball around the table rather than spinning it. If I float it around the table angles, I'm relying on my stroke and speed control to maneuver the ball around rather than spin. In order to keep a consistent speed stroke, I try to keep somewhat the same angles on all my shots. That way I'm always hitting quite "full" on the object ball and "feeling" the hit and weight of the cue ball.

Outside allows me to control the angles off the rail easier. I know what to expect in case I over hit the shot. The cue won't "cross" the next angle as drastically.

 

[336Robin]

Tough Shots

Can you make any of the balls in the layout using center ball or outside English?

If so, can you do it more times than you can with inside?

When I was young Ive made shots very similar to the long rail shots with Outside but those shots I wouldn't shoot in a game so its irrelevant. They can be made with inside and if you get it perfect Outside. Those shots I would find another solution and Center Ball is unlikely.

I could not do it more with outside or center, if I had to shoot those inside would be my choice.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Outside corrects the cut angle, inside throws it off even further.

The speed at which the CB's surface rubs across the OB's surface matters - slower rubbing usually = more friction and more throw.

With outside spin the CB is passing the OB in one direction while the CB's surface (on the side that touches the OB) is moving in the opposite direction, slowing the rubbing speed, which increases friction and throw.

With inside spin the CB and its surface are both moving in the same direction relative to the OB, speeding up the rubbing speed, which decreases friction and throw.

So outside spin tends to throw more than inside.

pj
chgo

 

[HawaiianEye]

When I was young Ive made shots very similar to the long rail shots with Outside but those shots I wouldn't shoot in a game so its irrelevant. They can be made with inside and if you get it perfect Outside. Those shots I would find another solution and Center Ball is unlikely.

I could not do it more with outside or center, if I had to shoot those inside would be my choice.

Can you think of any shots that can be made with outside that you can't make with inside? I mean that are the degree of difficulty as the shots shown in the diagram.

 

[Banks]

If they were easy (decent) shots we wouldn't be talking about them.

These are "circus" shots that come up in the game and sometimes you have pretty much "no choice" but to shoot at them.

Whenever that happens, I'm going INSIDE.

The thing is, those are all shots that require inside to cheat the lack of angle. A bit of a trick question, imo. Not sure why so many people on this forum keep pushing the idea that one certain way is a cure-all. To play well, it's necessary to be proficient in many things. CB control is what the game is about and that means making it dance when needed.

 

[HawaiianEye]

So outside spin tends to throw more than inside.

pj
chgo

I agree. I use outside when I want to "throw" the ball more.

 

[SJDinPHX]

(1)Some people favor inside, some favor outside, some use both. From what I've noticed from playing people for years and years and watching on TV and stream, it seems that the majority of people are sort of "scared" of inside for some reason and are much more comfortable using outside.

(2)I have been watching a lot of the streams lately and the announcers seem like they are "shocked" when somebody hits a ball good and uses inside...like it is something SPECIAL. They almost never say anything of the sort when people use outside....Why is that?

(3)I prefer to use inside if I can and have the choice, but I switch up depending upon the shot and if I have to change the angle to get back inside.

I haven't tried EVERY shot on the table, but I think there are some shots that you can make with inside that would be EXTREMELY hard or impossible with outside. I don't think there is a shot on the table that you can't make with inside, if the shot can even be made.

Some examples would be shots like below or any shot that is similar.

Would you shoot any of the shots below using outside? I'm talking to MAKE A BALL, not playing a safe or a bank. I can make all these balls (maybe not on the first shot) using inside, but I would hesitate to use outside, unless that was my only choice. I don't mean run the balls in the layout, I mean shooting any ball as it lies in the picture from where the cue ball is.

Hi Eye-man...Serious debate please !..Please allow me to give my input, to your comments, and you can determine their value for yourself !

Paragraph (1) I have made the exact same observations, throughout my entire life...I firmly believe, inside english is looked upon, by most players, of all skill levels as somewhat unnatural, and that is why most tend to avoid it, unless the shot really calls for it !

(2).. I'm assuming you had a knowledgable (or maybe a pro) commentator on the streams you've been watching ?..I feel the reasons I gave in paragraph (1) would also explain their bewilderment, at any unnecessary use of inside spin being applied. (does that not make sense ?)

(3)..I use english on virtually every shot myself, (ala the Pearl) and have caught some pretty good gears myself in my day !..I am not afraid to use inside english, and feel I can handle it as well as the next guy. (if the shot called for it)....But I would NEVER prefer it (or even a TOI) so I guess we differ greatly there. And I DO understand CJ's concept, of aiming for a consistent spot on the cue ball every time, I just flat do not subscribe to it !

As for your table layout, I'm not quite clear on where you are playing all those balls ?..If you are banking the 5 or the 2 cross side..Then yes, I would probably us a TOI on both of them..Because that is what is called for ! It would allow for a thinner hit, being as both balls are frozen !

Seriously Eye-man, I'm sure you are a very good player, and if I ever hinted otherwise, I'm sure you knew it was in jest .....We just went to "different pool schools", and I am WAY to old to want to re-learn it all now ! (especially something I just can't see any value in)

Peace Bro ! :thumbup:

PS..Lou, just curious,...When you had your 10K match with Barton, did you happen to notice, if he was using any "acronyms"?..According to some people, one guy got 'acronyms' the other guy ain't got any,
is the same as cheatin' !

 

[HawaiianEye]

Paragraph (1) I have made the exact same observation; throughout my entire life...I firmly believe, inside english is looked upon, by most players, of all skill levels, as somewhat unnatural, and that is why most tend to avoid it, unless the shot really calls for it ! I think it is "unnatural" because people have learned that it is "easier" to play with outside and never really learned inside. I played with outside a lot when I was beginning, because that is what almost everybody does and I learned from watching before I ever spent hours and hours playing

(2).. I'm assuming you had a knowledgable (or maybe a pro) commentator on the streams you've watched ?..I feel the reasons I gave in paragraph (1) would also explain their bewilderment, at any unnecessary use of inside spin being applied. (does that not make sense ?) I have heard it from almost every commentator...I am watching Mika play live as I'm typing this and he is "stunning" with inside on almost every shot.

(3)..I use english on virtually every shot myself, (ala the Pearl) and have caught some pretty good gears myself in my day !..I am not afraid to use inside english, and feel I can handle it, if the shot calls for it, but I would NEVER prefer it (or even a TOI) so I guess we differ greatly there. And I do understand CJ's concept, of aiming for a consistent spot on the cue ball, I just flat di not subscribe to it ! I use a bit of "something" on almost every shot too, but I prefer a bit of "inside" something to "outside", unless I have to let the dog out on a shot that I can't really control the angle using inside. You, I can believe, would use inside quite a bit, because it comes in really handy in one-pocket. Like when you have to back cut a ball into your pocket from a very steep angle and you don't want to let the cue ball get away. The inside kills the cue ball as it comes off the rail. I also use inside on a lot of cross-rail banks where I can cut the ball thinner and use the inside to kill the cue ball, where outside would allow me to make the ball, but I'd have to turn the cue ball loose.

As for your table layout, I'm not quite clear on where you are playing all those balls ?..If you are banking the 5 or the 2 cross side..Then yes, I would probably us a TOI on both of them..Because that is what is called for !I'm playing the balls as they lie. Cutting them into the corners.

Seriously Eye-man, I'm sure you are a very good player, and if I ever hinted otherwise, I'm sure you knew it was in jest .....We just went to "different pool schools", and I am WAY to old to want to re-learn it all now ! I don't think of it as re-learning. I think of it as "readjusting".

Peace Bro ! :thumbup:

All I'm trying to do is to get people thinking "inside the box" as well as "outside the box". I've seen people play like world champions using every kind of style. I prefer to know a bit of all of it and adjust as needed.

Aloha.

 

[skins]

I ran downstairs and threw out a quick 10 ball rack. Balls as they lay... ALL shots were shot with outside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvaFxs-jKo8&feature=youtu.be

 

[HawaiianEye]

I ran downstairs and threw out a quick 10 ball rack. Balls as they lay... ALL shots were shot with outside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvaFxs-jKo8&feature=youtu.be

Very nice and I can tell you play well, however you didn't have to really move the cue ball on any of those shots and I don't really consider inside or outside to be "English (or spin)" unless you are using it to move the cue ball around off the rails.

Hitting balls in the center of the table without the cue ball touching a rail isn't using "English" to me, unless you are using the "spin" to move the object ball off its natural path...or the cue ball.

 

[skins]

Very nice and I can tell you play well, however you didn't have to really move the cue ball on any of those shots and I don't really consider inside or outside to be "English (or spin)" unless you are using it to move the cue ball around off the rails.

Hitting balls in the center of the table without the cue ball touching a rail isn't using "English" to me, unless you are using the "spin" to move the object ball off its natural path...or the cue ball.

The path IS different even if the cue doesn't hit a rail. I find outside allows me to control not only the path of the cue ball off the object ball but also off a rail. Yes I am "spinning" the ball even with top used as in the 5 and 6 balls. It's just the way I learned to play. I find advantages to it and they work for me. Thanks for the compliment on my play!

 

[SJDinPHX]

All I'm trying to do is to get people thinking "inside the box" as well as "outside the box". I've seen people play like world champions using every kind of style. I prefer to know a bit of all of it and adjust as needed.

Aloha.

Boy Eye-man, are you sure you're not older than me ?..You sure are set in your ways !..I'm not satisfied with your answer on paragraph 2..Who gives a shite what Mika is doing ?...You did not address my thoughts on WHY commentators act surprised, at the use of inside english, when it is uncalled for...By the way, I know many different ways to 'kill' my cue ball, coming off a thin cut..(straight draw is one way, unless its too close to the rail)

Just for grins, I used to add a little challenge to cutting the long frozen 2 ball, the length of the table !
..I would put the cue ball, on a piece of chalk, on the wooden part of the end rail, and cut it in either pocket !..I would bet I could do it, in under 6 tries ! (I'd need 8, on a 5 X 10 ..Naturally, this shot calls for exxxtreeeeme inside english, so you would REALLY love it !

PS..BTW...You win the speed typing contest...hands down ! :sorry:

 

[CJ Wiley]

you need to be able to "move" the ball either way

All I'm trying to do is to get people thinking "inside the box" as well as "outside the box". I've seen people play like world champions using every kind of style. I prefer to know a bit of all of it and adjust as needed.

Aloha.

Just like in golf and tennis, you need to be able to "move" the ball either way. In golf you draw or fade (hook or slice), and in tennis you use topspin, slice, american twist etc.

The inside is best to practice because it will open up some shots that few have seen and it gets the player comfortable with using deflection as a tool.