Another aiming system C2CP&P

L

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK, since it's dead around here, I proffer:

If you can see/visualize the contact point (CP) on the OB that if contacted by the CB will send it to the pocket or target.

Then aim the center of the CB (CCB) at the CPOB then parallel shift the cue to the center of the OB (COB). Pay no attention to the CB but focus on the smaller appearing CPOB and COB.

Now pivot back to the CCB and shoot. Apply FHE and BHE to get shape on the next ball.

Why this works is because after the parallel shift from the CPOB to the COB creates an equilateral triangle from the CPOB to the bridge hand (pivot point) to the COB.

By pivoting back to CCB you have created another equilateral triangle (same included angle) with the new aim line to the outside of the CPOB equal to the distance from the CPOB to COB or double the distance aiming which is another aiming method. Search on PJ's DD thread.

There is no guessing where the DD is because if you can see the CPOB and the COB for these are discrete points of reference and not as approximate as DD.

Center to contact point and pivot or C2CP&P aiming.

Be well.
 
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LAMas,

I'll try this out and see what happens. I'm still using your CP2CP with a pivot, although it's a lot of work. :smile: I've also adapted to inside and outside spin with BHE before the shot. When I'm not hitting them too good, I can always count on it to get me there.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
LAMas,

I'll try this out and see what happens. I'm still using your CP2CP with a pivot, although it's a lot of work. :smile: I've also adapted to inside and outside spin with BHE before the shot. When I'm not hitting them too good, I can always count on it to get me there.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,
Hi.
You are open to all aiming systems that work for you and can employ each whenever the shot and shape requires.:)

Colin has described the use of "swipe" as another technique for getting shape and I think that you agree and have used it as well as I have read most of your posts.

Too bad English is gone for he was a user of swipe as well.

Be well,:)
 
LAMas,

I tried it and found it'll work if I do the work. I like the first CP2CP you showed me better and it has one less step. :smile:

A common denominator is the pivot. Part of that pivot gives the shot an over cut on the object ball and is the adjustment for the problem of not being able to hit the contact point with round balls.

You could eliminate the pivot back to center (or lessen it and go part way back to center) and probably fire at the contact point ala TOI. The cue ball deflection would solve the under cut. I do this with your other system for inside english. Speed control would be the deciding factor in the aiming line if used for both alignments. Just some thoughts...

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
LAMas,

I tried it and found it'll work if I do the work. I like the first CP2CP you showed me better and it has one less step. :smile:

A common denominator is the pivot. Part of that pivot gives the shot an over cut on the object ball and is the adjustment for the problem of not being able to hit the contact point with round balls.

You could eliminate the pivot back to center (or lessen it and go part way back to center) and probably fire at the contact point ala TOI. The cue ball deflection would solve the under cut. I do this with your other system for inside english. Speed control would be the deciding factor in the aiming line if used for both alignments. Just some thoughts...

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,

I like fewer steps as well. I almost always use CP2CP without the parallel shift on thick cut shots.

This puts inside english on the CB aimed at the contact point on the OB and lets the squirt take the CB to the GB like TOI. Unlike TOI, it doesn't have to be a "touch" for thinner cuts - all the way out from CCB but short of a miss cue for very thin cut shots.

Being able to see and aim at the CP on the OB and not have CIT of center CB change the intended angle to the target is the goal. Although this is parsimonious, you need to know where the CB is going after impact with the OB when you apply IE at he the equator, top or draw which also reduces CIT.

When the separation between the OB and CB is large, the IE offset is small (a touch?) because the angle caused by squirt takes the CB outside of the CP on the OB to the GB.

Conversely, when the separation is small the squirt angle effect is small and more IE is required up to the miscue point.

This take a little practice because of the shaft deflection of your cue, the speed of the cloth, humidity and.....

That said, aim IE at the contact point on the OB or IE2CP.:thumbup:

But you know this.:)

Be well
 
LAMas said:
Mike,

I like fewer steps as well. I almost always use CP2CP without the parallel shift on thick cut shots.

This puts inside english on the CB aimed at the contact point on the OB and lets the squirt take the CB to the GB like TOI. Unlike TOI, it doesn't have to be a "touch" for thinner cuts - all the way out from CCB but short of a miss cue for very thin cut shots.

Being able to see and aim at the CP on the OB and not have CIT of center CB change the intended angle to the target is the goal. Although this is parsimonious, you need to know where the CB is going after impact with the OB when you apply IE at he the equator, top or draw which also reduces CIT.

When the separation between the OB and CB is large, the IE offset is small (a touch?) because the angle caused by squirt takes the CB outside of the CP on the OB to the GB.

Conversely, when the separation is small the squirt angle effect is small and more IE is required up to the miscue point.

This take a little practice because of the shaft deflection of your cue, the speed of the cloth, humidity and.....

That said, aim IE at the contact point on the OB or IE2CP.:thumbup:

But you know this.:)

Be well
Click to expand...

Another way of looking at it with CP2CP aiming and using IE is that you may need more or less spin. For instance, if you have a thinner cut and your corresponding cue ball contact point is at the edge of the cue ball, instead of hitting the extreme outside edge of the cue ball, you can pivot in toward center and go to whatever amount of tip placement you like of IE and still pocket the ball.

My pivots are pre-shot and are a 90/90 hip pivot. I keep my head over the cue and move my torso locked in position. Nothing changes except where my hips point to the line of the shot which is so slight, unless you see me move, it couldn't be noticed.

Another example is when using a TOI setup, if inside or outside spin is needed, you can pivot, pre-shot, to whatever spin you need for shape and still hit the pocket. You can slightly pivot back to center cue ball and hit center if you don't need the slight over cut on the object ball. But, the over cut will remain in your setup if you start with it in your initial alignment, despite your pre-shot BHE pivot.

CJ's kept this fact close to his vest and only alluded to it sparingly when pressed by posters. I suspect this and several other tips will be coming in the future in bits and pieces to be deciphered by the "true believers". :wink: There're several other interesting points I won't get into here, as CJ will be along , hopefully, and get to TOI 201, and TOI 301 instruction.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
Another way of looking at it with CP2CP aiming and using IE is that you may need more or less spin. For instance, if you have a thinner cut and your corresponding cue ball contact point is at the edge of the cue ball, instead of hitting the extreme outside edge of the cue ball, you can pivot in toward center and go to whatever amount of tip placement you like of IE and still pocket the ball.

If the separation between the OB and CB is large, the parallel shift of the cue is small because the size of the OB appears smaller than the CB that is closer to your focal plane and the parallel shift toward center CB will be inside of the point on the CB that will cause you to miscue – so no miscue. This can be true even if the contact point is on the outer edge of the OB (90 degree cut).

If you parallel shift short of the center CB to apply parallel inside English (IE), the CB will be aimed inside of the GB but you will be applying squirt that will send the CB to the outside and to the GB. More IE, more squirt compensation.

If you parallel shift past the CCB to apply parallel outside English (OE) the CB will be aimed outside of the GB but squirt will send it back to GB. More OE, more squirt compensation.

I have to get to the table to study the hip pivot that works for you.

More, later Mike and thanks for sharing.


My pivots are pre-shot and are a 90/90 hip pivot. I keep my head over the cue and move my torso locked in position. Nothing changes except where my hips point to the line of the shot which is so slight, unless you see me move, it couldn't be noticed.

Another example is when using a TOI setup, if inside or outside spin is needed, you can pivot, pre-shot, to whatever spin you need for shape and still hit the pocket. You can slightly pivot back to center cue ball and hit center if you don't need the slight over cut on the object ball. But, the over cut will remain in your setup if you start with it in your initial alignment, despite your pre-shot BHE pivot.

CJ's kept this fact close to his vest and only alluded to it sparingly when pressed by posters. I suspect this and several other tips will be coming in the future in bits and pieces to be deciphered by the "true believers". :wink: There're several other interesting points I won't get into here, as CJ will be along , hopefully, and get to TOI 201, and TOI 301 instruction.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

My comment in green,
Be well.
 
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LAMas said:
My comment in green,
Be well.
Click to expand...

The squirt compensation is very real and up until a year or so ago, I tried to eliminate it in my game by staying with center cue ball as much as possible. This thread and a few others in the past with you have opened my eyes to how easy it is to aim the cue ball using parallax viewing and the contact point on both the cue ball and object ball.

Several conversations with SmoothStroke about "staying inside the cue ball" have proven to me how accurate an inside address can be instead of cueing outside for many shots. The last few weeks, I've been staying inside and using CP2CP and I've noticed my potting percentage along with my position play has shown an uptick. It's helped me climb off of this last plateau I've been on for too long. :thumbup:

This is the advanced version of TOI CJ never got to show to us, but mentioned.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
The squirt compensation is very real and up until a year or so ago, I tried to eliminate it in my game by staying with center cue ball as much as possible. This thread and a few others in the past with you have opened my eyes to how easy it is to aim the cue ball using parallax viewing and the contact point on both the cue ball and object ball.

Several conversations with SmoothStroke about "staying inside the cue ball" have proven to me how accurate an inside address can be instead of cueing outside for many shots. The last few weeks, I've been staying inside and using CP2CP and I've noticed my potting percentage along with my position play has shown an uptick. It's helped me climb off of this last plateau I've been on for too long. :thumbup:

This is the advanced version of TOI CJ never got to show to us, but mentioned.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,

Keith McCready once said that mastering IE helped his game when he was young.
IE with top, draw and stun helps me position the CB to get shape when its called for.

IE aimed at the contact point on the OB is reliable and parsimonious.

CJ's TOI gets one started and curiosity and positive results leads to using more than just a touch.

He has been supportive of my rants for it complements his aiming. As you have Mike. :smile:

Be well.
 
LAMas said:
Mike,

Keith McCready once said that mastering IE helped his game when he was young.
IE with top, draw and stun helps me position the CB to get shape when its called for.

IE aimed at the contact point on the OB is reliable and parsimonious.

CJ's TOI gets one started and curiosity and positive results leads to using more than just a touch.

He has been supportive of my rants for it complements his aiming. As you have Mike. :smile:

Be well.
Click to expand...

All spot on points. I agree with your IE statement (let Keith know if you see him). I fought going past the TOI point, but I took a leap of faith anyway. :smile: Since CP2CP aiming is always inside the cue ball, it got a lot easier with repetition and your continued instruction. :cool:

On your outside cueing, are you setting up inside first (CP) or at center cue ball?

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
All spot on points. I agree with your IE statement (let Keith know if you see him). I fought going past the TOI point, but I took a leap of faith anyway. :smile: Since CP2CP aiming is always inside the cue ball, it got a lot easier with repetition and your continued instruction. :cool:

On your outside cueing, are you setting up inside first (CP) or at center cue ball?

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,
I shouldn't have mentioned OE (below) in my post on CP2CP because I digressed. I need to say that the reference/starting aim point for OE is the GB and not the CP on the OB or a conventional method...I think that you caught that.

If you parallel shift past the CCB to apply parallel outside English (OE) the CB will be aimed outside of the GB but squirt will send it back to GB. More OE, more squirt compensation.

Instead, I would use C2CP&P, in my 1st post (in this thread), with OE after the pivot to CCB so that the squirt will send the CB back to the GB with OE.

Pivoting past CCB increases the included angle past the GB and the OE squirt brings the CB back to the GB.

Thanks for the question that caused me to rethink and clarify.

Be well.
 
LAMas said:
Mike,
I shouldn't have mentioned OE (below) in my post on CP2CP because I digressed. I need to say that the reference/starting aim point for OE is the GB and not the CP on the OB or a conventional method...I think that you caught that.

If you parallel shift past the CCB to apply parallel outside English (OE) the CB will be aimed outside of the GB but squirt will send it back to GB. More OE, more squirt compensation.

Instead, I would use C2CP&P, in my 1st post (in this thread), with OE after the pivot to CCB so that the squirt will send the CB back to the GB with OE.

Pivoting past CCB increases the included angle past the GB and the OE squirt brings the CB back to the GB.

Thanks for the question that caused me to rethink and clarify.

Be well.
Click to expand...

LAMas,

I also pivot past center to the outside spin. The interesting thing is that I can stop anywhere on the pivot, even before CCB and get any amount of IE or OE I desire. Once the initial setup is established, the BHE, pre-shot is fairly easy to do.

When I setup with an inside address at the CP, if I'm a little farther out on the cue ball than I need or if shape is a problem, I pivot toward CCB maintaining my inside address to a lesser degree. A consistent stroke is important to keep the squirt the same, as is monitoring the speed.

What about a CP2CP w/P dvd? :smile: A geometrically correct system that works.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
LAMas,

I also pivot past center to the outside spin. The interesting thing is that I can stop anywhere on the pivot, even before CCB and get any amount of IE or OE I desire. Once the initial setup is established, the BHE, pre-shot is fairly easy to do.

When I setup with an inside address at the CP, if I'm a little farther out on the cue ball than I need or if shape is a problem, I pivot toward CCB maintaining my inside address to a lesser degree. A consistent stroke is important to keep the squirt the same, as is monitoring the speed.

What about a CP2CP w/P dvd? :smile: A geometrically correct system that works.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,
First, I don't have the time or the need to profit from the misery that pool creates by making a DVD/s. I just hope that some will benefit from what is proffered (for free - here) by those that can convey what works for them, like you, that added to the pleasure of pool - instead.

I concur with your observation. To me, the more english/outside of the CCB the greater the attendant compensating squirt - you hit the target with the OB and get the shape that the application of IE or OE assists - that you desired.

If you are adventurous you might even add swipe/swoop to your arsenal to get shape...and you are.

Thanks and be well.
 
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LAMas said:
Mike,
First, I don't have the time or the need to profit from the misery that pool creates by making a DVD/s. I just hope that some will benefit from what is proffered (for free - here) by those that can convey what works for them, like you, that added to the pleasure of pool - instead.

I concur with your observation. To me, the more english/outside of the CCB the greater the attendant compensating squirt - you hit the target with the OB and get the shape that the application of IE or OE assists - that you desired.

If you are adventurous you might even add swipe/swoop to your arsenal to get shape...and you are.

Thanks and be well.
Click to expand...

I think a consistent stroke speed is a big part of using BHE. With TOI, a player can adjust their aiming by slightly changing the speed of the shot. In a broader sense, all types of cue ball address can be adjusted to vary the shot line. Depending on position, the IE (to CP) is the easiest to work with for cinching a shot.

What does the pivot back to CCB actually do for the alignment?

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
I think a consistent stroke speed is a big part of using BHE. With TOI, a player can adjust their aiming by slightly changing the speed of the shot. In a broader sense, all types of cue ball address can be adjusted to vary the shot line. Depending on position, the IE (to CP) is the easiest to work with for cinching a shot.

What does the pivot back to CCB actually do for the alignment?

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Mike,
CCB is devoid of squirt and swerve and a good starting point for aiming like C2C for a straight in shot and C2EOB (CTE) for a bit less than the geometric 30 degrees because of CIT. CCB is often the exact center of the CB (stun) or it can be aimed high (top) or low (draw) on the same vertical line to reduce CIT and get desired shape/position on the next shot.

Other than that, one cannot aim at the contact point on the OB (CPOB) with CCB for the resulting cut will be thick. One can aim double distance (DD) using CCB for consistent results but the expected cut angle will be a bit thick because of CIT.

So starting with CCB, one can adjust by applying engish to compensate for CIT and achieve the geometrically correct cut angle if one desires that.

I learned how to use CCB to aim and memorized the resulting cut angles when aimed at the infinite fractions on the OB, but when the cut angle was greater than CTE (30 degrees) I couldn't use fractions on the OB for the path of the CB had to be outside of CTE.

DD aiming as well as CP2CP and C2CP&P are useful for those angles greater than 30 degrees - for those that relate to cut angles in degrees.

Thanks for asking and causing me to think of an answer...most shooters shoot and others aim to succeed.. :wink:

Be well
 
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