Poor etiquette or sharking?

[FranCrimi]

Yup. Might help that I'm polite while doing it. Granted, you might not assume that from my last post.

My two best friends were made through conflicts at pool tourneys. One when I was running the tourney and we ended up toe-to-toe yelling at each other at the end for about ten minutes after which we simultaneously offered to buy each other a beer. The other was a disagreement on a foul--I called it on him, he disagreed, but backed down, I insisted that we discuss the situation and resolve it like men...either we agree what happened or re-rack the game. There is no insulting or being unreasonable, it is simply firmly standing up for what you believe.

In the case that the OP stated, I'd probably say, 'I know you probably don't realize it and maybe it isn't something that would bother you, but it is generally considered rude and disrespectful to play with balls on another table during a match.'

It might be hard for you to understand, but there are a lot of men who respect people who can calmly and firmly address situations. It is a way in which mutual understanding is reached. Most of the people I choose to hang around with are this way. Those are the people I like. My close group of 6-7 friends play a non-handicapped cash league together, we have BBQs together, we fish and camp together. We are all like this. When we show up to a bar tourney, most of the other players come over to us to say, 'hi,' and talk to us. We are remembered and welcomed by the staff and other players after being most places only once. This is because people know that with us there, crap like the OP's statement will be addressed without it elevating to physical engagement. I've had people ask me to watch shots that my best friend was taking because they know that I will call it correctly...and that my friend would lose respect for me if I didn't.

BTW, I've been close friends with these people for eight years...and I'm still the new guy.

You mention the word 'men' quite a bit --- as in the context of 'acting like men.' You spoke of testicles and the implication of not having them being equated with running crying to an authority. Interesting stuff.

Yelling in each others faces for 10 minutes is disruptive to any league or tournament and yes --- I think it would be something that those of us without testicles would wish to avoid.

I suspect that even several with testicles would wish to avoid having to fade all that yelling during a tournament as well. (Just a guess. )

This isn't the wild west. It's an organized billiard competition.

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

You mention the word 'men' quite a bit --- as in the context of 'acting like men.' You spoke of men's genitals and the implication of not having them being equated with running crying to an authority. Interesting stuff.

Yelling in each others faces for 10 minutes is disruptive to any league or tournament and yes --- I think it would be something that those of us without men's genitals would wish to avoid.

I suspect that even several WITH men's genitals would wish to avoid having to fade all that yelling during a tournament as well.

No, I mentioned testicles once.

Second, I relate one incident and you presume that is typical. On the contrary, none of us wish to ever make anyone uncomfortable...I also kinda said that in the last post.

I was careful to mention that it was men because I am one and don't understand a damn thing about how the other side reacts to situations. I don't understand why 'nothing' doesn't mean, well, nothing. I can't understand why when asked one will say, 'If you don't know, I won't tell you.' I can provide many ex-girlfriends who will attest to this.

With men it is upfront, in the open and addressed immediately. We have a problem we make it known.

As for the yelling incident, it was done after the tourney was over (which was stated in the original post) and away from the area.

The foul incident was intense, but neither of our voices was raised any louder than necessary to be heard over the music.

Maybe you think that you and your sisters wouldn't like this, but maybe you could ask the several ladies who play at the tourneys we attend. On monday there were three ladies, all of whom contacted me to see if I was going to be there.

 

[Celophanewrap]

You don't have to find a way to ignore him. You have to find a way to stop him!

I'd walk right over to the L.O. and tell him what the problem is. You don't have to say one word to your opponent. Let the L.O. handle it. And if the L.O. asks you if you asked him to stop, tell him no, that's why you came to him (or her) because the situation requires an authority to make a ruling and avoid a confrontation.

Good advice for those sans testicles. A real man will calmly explain to the opponent that is it bothersome and rude.

Not every situation requires crying to the authorities. I've made some great friends by working through conflicts at pool tourneys. Had I just run weeping to the operator, I wouldn't have those friends.

It's both, poor pool etiquette and sharking as well. There are rules against things like this.

ANYTIME, I encounter my opponent attempting to hit balls on another table, I immediately tell them in a nice voice, "You can't PRACTICE while you are playing a match!". If they say it isn't in the rules or some other silly thing, I tell them in a loud enough voice for more than just him to hear, "Then you don't know anything about the rules of pool."

That usually dissuades them from attempting to distract me further but if they attempt other or further distractions, I address that as well.

The absolute worst thing you can do when something is distracting you is to try to ignore it. At least that's what the Sports Psychologists have taught me.

Sometimes, you can use the distraction to motivate you to focus even more and that's fine, but it is my belief that a sharking opponent needs to be embarrassed at the very least if he doesn't immediately stop the distracting.

I've embarrassed professional pool players when they didn't act like gentlemen when I asked them to correct their behavior so I don't mind doing the same for league players or anyone else.

The main thing is be resolute with your decision to denounce the distraction and accept nothing less that decent behavior from your opponent. It is imperative that YOU are not embarrassed for calling them out. Any guilt on your part will hamper YOUR ability to play well. I used to be self conscious about calling them out but no more. Life is too short to put up with any shenanigans at the table, intentional or unintentional.

If my opponent is a really nice guy and just doesn't know better, I will be very patient and nice and explain why I don't tolerate that type of behavior (besides it being a rule). If they want proof about it being a rule, I tell them to please go get a ref.

JoeyA

APA bylaw in Vegas: SPORTSMANSHIP: Participating in the APA League is supposed to be fun. Cheering for your team members is recommended and encouraged. However, heckling, jeering, interrupting, distracting, cussing at, or screaming at your opponent (to deliberately cause a disruption), opposing team members, Division Reps, the League Operator or any APA official is a show of poor sportsmanship and will NOT be tolerated.

Fran, Cold Heart and Joey all make good points, however, this is The APA we're talking about. The world of mutual respect and courtesy don't always exist there. Fran is from the world of Professionals where sharking seems to be more subtle and the players are professionals and it would seem that they usually conduct themselves that way (at least to me it seems that way). In the APA, LO's unless they're playing, if your LO plays on a team, LO's don't usually make an appearance at at weekly play and rules are more subjective as if they were more like guidelines than rules. Sure, there are some rules that everyone plays by, but mostly you just play and it's supposed to be good natured so overall a lot of things slide. I know people that if they know they're under your skin all they do is turn it up.

So you're playing in a bar with several tables or a pool hall with 30 tables, what do you do? Do you make everyone stop playing so you don't have any distractions? I don't disagree with you guys, it's rude and I'd like to have a match where we're both sporting and invested in the match. If Joey played with many of the teams here and addressed someone that way he's more likely to be laughed at then to embarrass anyone, but that's in weekly play. In playoffs and LTC's and NTC's the stakes go up step by step. But even there, there are players playing on adjacent tables that couldn't care less about your match. Tell them not to shoot shoot during your match, you're likely to get a finger and some harsh words.

If you're so fixated on what people around you are doing maybe you should rethink your approach to the game, and if you're so fixated on what I'm doing a table or two away from you, then I'm likely to beat you.

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

Fran, Cold Heart and Joey all make good points, however, this is The APA we're talking about. The world of mutual respect and courtesy don't always exist there. Fran is from the world of Professionals where sharking seems to be more subtle and the players are professionals and it would seem that they usually conduct themselves that way (at least to me it seems that way). In the APA, LO's unless they're playing, if your LO plays on a team, LO's don't usually make an appearance at at weekly play and rules are more subjective as if they were more like guidelines than rules. Sure, there are some rules that everyone plays by, but mostly you just play and it's supposed to be good natured so overall a lot of things slide. I know people that if they know they're under your skin all they do is turn it up.

So you're playing in a bar with several tables or a pool hall with 30 tables, what do you do? Do you make everyone stop playing so you don't have any distractions? I don't disagree with you guys, it's rude and I'd like to have a match where we're both sporting and invested in the match. If Joey played with many of the teams here and addressed someone that way he's more likely to be laughed at then to embarrass anyone, but that's in weekly play. In playoffs and LTC's and NTC's the stakes go up step by step. But even there, there are players playing on adjacent tables that couldn't care less about your match. Tell them not to shoot shoot during your match, you're likely to get a finger and some harsh words.

If you're so fixated on what people around you are doing maybe you should rethink your approach to the game, and if you're so fixated on what I'm doing a table or two away from you, then I'm likely to beat you.

Well said. I can shut out other tables, waitresses, other teams, teammates, drunks, but I expect my opponent to be courteous and attentive.

 

[JoeyA]

The APA has standards and it is particularly noticeable at the beginning of the APA Game Rules where they devote a large section to ETIQUETTE.

To help make your evening of League play enjoyable, as well as
enhance the enjoyment of those around you, please observe
basic guidelines of etiquette. Treat your opponent as you
would like to be treated. Pay attention to your match; be ready to
shoot when it is your turn so you don’t slow down the match. If you
are expected to play the next match, have your cue ready, have
enough quarters for the table, if needed, and begin your match as
soon as the previous match is over. Limit coaching to one minute.
Cheering for your teammate is part of the fun, but don’t cheer against
your opponent. A fun and competitive evening of League play is a
goal that can be achieved by observing these guidelines and
displaying good sportsmanship.


If players in the APA leagues are not abiding by basic guidelines of etiquette, it is THE OFFENDER'S FAULT and the condoning or acceptance or toleration of offending behavior is where the problem lies.

The rules are there for a reason. Because people think they are above the rules doesn't make breaking them right OR ACCEPTABLE, IMO.

Also, some people have the "see-me" syndrome. That's where they beg for attention. If they are not involved with my game, they go wanting.

I'm all for people having a good time and if someone on another table (not my opponent) is getting a little wasted and being a little loud, (and not involved with my game) I don't mind them one bit. I may smile at them because I like to see people enjoying themselves, but not at the expense of others.

JoeyA

Fran, Cold Heart and Joey all make good points, however, this is The APA we're talking about. The world of mutual respect and courtesy don't always exist there. Fran is from the world of Professionals where sharking seems to be more subtle and the players are professionals and it would seem that they usually conduct themselves that way (at least to me it seems that way). In the APA, LO's unless they're playing, if your LO plays on a team, LO's don't usually make an appearance at at weekly play and rules are more subjective as if they were more like guidelines than rules. Sure, there are some rules that everyone plays by, but mostly you just play and it's supposed to be good natured so overall a lot of things slide. I know people that if they know they're under your skin all they do is turn it up.

So you're playing in a bar with several tables or a pool hall with 30 tables, what do you do? Do you make everyone stop playing so you don't have any distractions? I don't disagree with you guys, it's rude and I'd like to have a match where we're both sporting and invested in the match. If Joey played with many of the teams here and addressed someone that way he's more likely to be laughed at then to embarrass anyone, but that's in weekly play. In playoffs and LTC's and NTC's the stakes go up step by step. But even there, there are players playing on adjacent tables that couldn't care less about your match. Tell them not to shoot shoot during your match, you're likely to get a finger and some harsh words.

If you're so fixated on what people around you are doing maybe you should rethink your approach to the game, and if you're so fixated on what I'm doing a table or two away from you, then I'm likely to beat you.

 

[Celophanewrap]

The APA has standards and it is particularly noticeable at the beginning of the APA Game Rules where they devote a large section to ETIQUETTE.

To help make your evening of League play enjoyable, as well as
enhance the enjoyment of those around you, please observe
basic guidelines of etiquette. Treat your opponent as you
would like to be treated. Pay attention to your match; be ready to
shoot when it is your turn so you don’t slow down the match. If you
are expected to play the next match, have your cue ready, have
enough quarters for the table, if needed, and begin your match as
soon as the previous match is over. Limit coaching to one minute.
Cheering for your teammate is part of the fun, but don’t cheer against
your opponent. A fun and competitive evening of League play is a
goal that can be achieved by observing these guidelines and
displaying good sportsmanship.


If players in the APA leagues are not abiding by basic guidelines of etiquette, it is THE OFFENDER'S FAULT and the condoning or acceptance or toleration of offending behavior is where the problem lies.

The rules are there for a reason. Because people think they are above the rules doesn't make breaking them right OR ACCEPTABLE, IMO.

Also, some people have the "see-me" syndrome. That's where they beg for attention. If they are not involved with my game, they go wanting.

I'm all for people having a good time and if someone on another table (not my opponent) is getting a little wasted and being a little loud, (and not involved with my game) I don't mind them one bit. I may smile at them because I like to see people enjoying themselves, but not at the expense of others.

JoeyA

Like I said, I don't disagree. I've read that as well and we all deal with many different types and it takes all types to make a world (though some types we could probably do without). Sportsmanship can be subjective, what you consider to be poor sportsmanship might be perfectly fine to the next person and your standards may not apply to them nor their's to you, but the Golden Rule always remains constant. I doubt that Joey is likely bang balls on an adjacent table while his match is going on, but we all know that sometimes you have to get right down in the gutter with the trash to beat it back and be effective. Methods vary.

 

[FranCrimi]

Fran, Cold Heart and Joey all make good points, however, this is The APA we're talking about. The world of mutual respect and courtesy don't always exist there. Fran is from the world of Professionals where sharking seems to be more subtle and the players are professionals and it would seem that they usually conduct themselves that way (at least to me it seems that way). In the APA, LO's unless they're playing, if your LO plays on a team, LO's don't usually make an appearance at at weekly play and rules are more subjective as if they were more like guidelines than rules. Sure, there are some rules that everyone plays by, but mostly you just play and it's supposed to be good natured so overall a lot of things slide. I know people that if they know they're under your skin all they do is turn it up.

So you're playing in a bar with several tables or a pool hall with 30 tables, what do you do? Do you make everyone stop playing so you don't have any distractions? I don't disagree with you guys, it's rude and I'd like to have a match where we're both sporting and invested in the match. If Joey played with many of the teams here and addressed someone that way he's more likely to be laughed at then to embarrass anyone, but that's in weekly play. In playoffs and LTC's and NTC's the stakes go up step by step. But even there, there are players playing on adjacent tables that couldn't care less about your match. Tell them not to shoot shoot during your match, you're likely to get a finger and some harsh words.

If you're so fixated on what people around you are doing maybe you should rethink your approach to the game, and if you're so fixated on what I'm doing a table or two away from you, then I'm likely to beat you.

True, I may have wound up in professional tournaments, but I didn't start there. I had to fade the bad behavior in local tournaments on a weekly basis. At one point, I took on the job of TD in my local pool hall. My first priority was to protect the players --- usually that meant from intruding spectators, but sometimes that meant from each other. The problem of bad behavior getting out of control is a management issue. Take the responsibility of handling issues that come up off of the players themselves and put it where it belongs --- on the officials.

I always told the players to come to me directly if there is an issue and I will handle it. This was strictly in an amateur setting and the players really enjoyed their weekly tournament because they knew someone was actually looking after them.

Everyone behaved like gentlemen and women, and those who insisted on antagonizing others just for the sake of it were were warned and then the next time, ejected.

 

[Celophanewrap]

True, I may have wound up in professional tournaments, but I didn't start there. I had to fade the bad behavior in local tournaments on a weekly basis. At one point, I took on the job of TD in my local pool hall. My first priority was to protect the players --- usually that meant from intruding spectators, but sometimes that meant from each other. The problem with bad behavior getting out of control is a management issue. Take the responsibility of handling issues that come up off of the players themselves and put it where it belongs --- on the officials.

I always told the players to come to me directly if there is an issue and I will handle it. This was strictly in an amateur setting and the players really enjoyed their weekly tournament because they knew someone was actually looking after them.

Everyone behaved like gentlemen and women, and those who insisted on antagonizing others just for the sake of it were were warned and then the next time, ejected.

I always appreciate your insight, experience, and wisdom. As a TD it was great that you could be there and for a TD I'm sure it's required that you be there, but The APA is largely self-policing. We're expected to handle many things on our own, and the book says "through common sense and compromise". We don't have the benefit of a referee or an LO or TD at every match. It would be great if all the players were polite and courteous and maintained reasonable decorum during play, but there is booze, and some are ultra competitive and over all we're left to deal with it as best we can. To some of us good behavior and what is seen as good sportsmanship is of paramount importance, and to some winning by any means is what it's all about. You get that when you see a guy berate his wife or girlfriend for for missing a shot or something like that. I would rather win than lose, but it's more important that I keep my integrity in tact. Not everyone feels that way

 

[ktrepal85]

I've got an APA sharking story for you that just happened this spring. I was at the APA tri county tournament to decide who goes to Vegas. We played late Friday night. Then we had to wake up early to play Saturday morning and then we played all day Saturday. So it's 12:30 am and I am the last one for our team shooting in a close match that will decide the team match. We are the last two teams there and the place is empty and dead silent.

The other team is sitting right behind the end of the table and our team is pretty far away from the table. I have to shoot a tough nine ball with the cue ball frozen on the rail with their team right behind me (3 feet away from my ear). As I get down on my shot I can hear their coach, speaking loudly saying to the person next to him: "I think you'll be alright, he's got a tough long straight in shot on the 9 here. It's hard to shoot when you're up against the rail like that there's a lot of pressure on the line...etc...etc..." I stood up and angerily asked him to be quiet so I can shoot and he gave me some smart ass remark then finally shut up and I sank the shot.

A few minutes later while still in the match I asked the league operator if there was a rule against talking in my ear while I'm shooting and he said as long as he is talking to his player it's completely fine. Isn't that some BS?

 

[alstl]

During my last APA match while I was shooting my opponent insisted on banging a cue ball around on the table adjacent to our match table. I told him about it at one point, and that it was distracting when I was down on the shot. I don't think he got it though as the behaviour continued. Is there anything in the rules about this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Let me see if I have this straight. A guy in an APA league was banging a cue ball around a table. His opponent was distracted by a fellow player banging a cue ball around a table.

Do I have that right?

 

[Jesse Gilbert]

That's a move and should be a ball in hand foul.

 

[FranCrimi]

I always appreciate your insight, experience, and wisdom. As a TD it was great that you could be there and for a TD I'm sure it's required that you be there, but The APA is largely self-policing. We're expected to handle many things on our own, and the book says "through common sense and compromise". We don't have the benefit of a referee or an LO or TD at every match. It would be great if all the players were polite and courteous and maintained reasonable decorum during play, but there is booze, and some are ultra competitive and over all we're left to deal with it as best we can. To some of us good behavior and what is seen as good sportsmanship is of paramount importance, and to some winning by any means is what it's all about. You get that when you see a guy berate his wife or girlfriend for for missing a shot or something like that. I would rather win than lose, but it's more important that I keep my integrity in tact. Not everyone feels that way

Thanks, but any league can be a great league if the people in charge choose to take a little extra time to put things in place to create a playing environment that is comfortable for everyone, and not just the bad boys. People who act up generally do it because they know they can get away with it. Once they learn they can't, they'll either get with the program or get out.

 

[philly]

I've got an APA sharking story for you that just happened this spring. I was at the APA tri county tournament to decide who goes to Vegas. We played late Friday night. Then we had to wake up early to play Saturday morning and then we played all day Saturday. So it's 12:30 am and I am the last one for our team shooting in a close match that will decide the team match. We are the last two teams there and the place is empty and dead silent.

The other team is sitting right behind the end of the table and our team is pretty far away from the table. I have to shoot a tough nine ball with the cue ball frozen on the rail with their team right behind me (3 feet away from my ear). As I get down on my shot I can hear their coach, speaking loudly saying to the person next to him: "I think you'll be alright, he's got a tough long straight in shot on the 9 here. It's hard to shoot when you're up against the rail like that there's a lot of pressure on the line...etc...etc..." I stood up and angerily asked him to be quiet so I can shoot and he gave me some smart ass remark then finally shut up and I sank the shot.

A few minutes later while still in the match I asked the league operator if there was a rule against talking in my ear while I'm shooting and he said as long as he is talking to his player it's completely fine. Isn't that some BS?

That's ridiculous. I hope the guy that did that to you is reading this because I'm telling him he is absolutely classless.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Bcapl

BCA rules 16.6 Unsportsmanlike Conduct

The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.

I think (e) covers it. Happens in the local league that I play in, think it's a total lack of class to do. Don't know how APA handles it.

Thanks for mentioning the BCAPL rules...and educating those who quit playing league because their only experience is with APA.

All leagues and tournaments and leagues I've run since 1966 have the rule (e) listed above.

 

[Donny Lutz]

You mention the word 'men' quite a bit --- as in the context of 'acting like men.' You spoke of testicles and the implication of not having them being equated with running crying to an authority. Interesting stuff.

Yelling in each others faces for 10 minutes is disruptive to any league or tournament and yes --- I think it would be something that those of us without testicles would wish to avoid.

I suspect that even several with testicles would wish to avoid having to fade all that yelling during a tournament as well. (Just a guess. )

This isn't the wild west. It's an organized billiard competition.

Well said!

 

[3RAILKICK]

I've got an APA sharking story for you that just happened this spring. I was at the APA tri county tournament to decide who goes to Vegas. We played late Friday night. Then we had to wake up early to play Saturday morning and then we played all day Saturday. So it's 12:30 am and I am the last one for our team shooting in a close match that will decide the team match. We are the last two teams there and the place is empty and dead silent.

The other team is sitting right behind the end of the table and our team is pretty far away from the table. I have to shoot a tough nine ball with the cue ball frozen on the rail with their team right behind me (3 feet away from my ear). As I get down on my shot I can hear their coach, speaking loudly saying to the person next to him: "I think you'll be alright, he's got a tough long straight in shot on the 9 here. It's hard to shoot when you're up against the rail like that there's a lot of pressure on the line...etc...etc..." I stood up and angerily asked him to be quiet so I can shoot and he gave me some smart ass remark then finally shut up and I sank the shot.

A few minutes later while still in the match I asked the league operator if there was a rule against talking in my ear while I'm shooting and he said as long as he is talking to his player it's completely fine. Isn't that some BS?

I've witnessed this move, but with a different twist.

Once called out, the 'loud talker' apologizes. Then after the shooter resets, just as he strokes forward...the 'loud talker' now yells.. .'Everybody be quiet!!'...and shooter misses badly.:angry:


...and then it starts.. ..the innocent as a newborn babe...'what are you talking about...???:banghead::banghead:

 

[JoeyA]

I agree 100% with this.
JoeyA

Thanks, but any league can be a great league if the people in charge choose to take a little extra time to put things in place to create a playing environment that is comfortable for everyone, and not just the bad boys.

People who act up generally do it because they know they can get away with it. Once they learn they can't, they'll either get with the program or get out.