Centerball...haters gonna hate

We come from different starting points on the journey. I started using english when I was 13 only a few weeks after being introduced to the game. I'll be 62 later this week. I use either some form of english or TOI on nearly every shot unless the shot & shape can not be done with english & the shot 'requires' staying on the center vertical line.

As a 13 year old I was not afraid. I later took Physics in H.S. & College. I think I am thankful I learned to use english before I learned physics. However I still play the game & do not Physics Text Book the game.

I've said it before but if I had to stay on the center line I would probably quit the game. I often wonder when I hear people that are so frustrated that they are considering quitting the game & they do not use english.

I think you are somewhat correct about the misunderstanding of what individuals 'mean' to say. That said, language is all that we have & especially in a text only format. Just like in pool, some are better than others when it comes to using the 'English' language.

When I say that I use english on nearly every shot, some might think that I am hitting at 3:00 & 9:00 on all of those shots & that could not be further from the truth. In fact, I almost never hit at those locations, but am doing so more now that I am playing some one pocket.

Best Wishes.

Interesting. While I am not in my 60's yet, and am probably not as skilled as you, I have a similar experience. When I was young, I pretty much used a bit of, to a lot of English on EVERY shot. Even shots it was not necessary. Since taking the game back up, and am clearly older...I have taken a new approach. If a shot does not demand English, I do NOT use it. I focus on making the ball, and making the hit as required to make the leave. Simply put, I am NOT as accurate with the extra variable of English. If a shot requires English, of course I take it, and am happy with having the background of my youth shooting everything with English.

I guess I subscribe to the KISS strategy...
 
Interesting. While I am not in my 60's yet, and am probably not as skilled as you, I have a similar experience. When I was young, I pretty much used a bit of, to a lot of English on EVERY shot. Even shots it was not necessary. Since taking the game back up, and am clearly older...I have taken a new approach. If a shot does not demand English, I do NOT use it. I focus on making the ball, and making the hit as required to make the leave. Simply put, I am NOT as accurate with the extra variable of English. If a shot requires English, of course I take it, and am happy with having the background of my youth shooting everything with English.

I guess I subscribe to the KISS strategy...

How long did you break from when you used english until when you came back to playing?

I just posted that it seems many have this wild idea of high spinning balls running out of control all over the table.

While you might now hit a shot for a center hit 24 inch draw hitting below center, I might hit it at 5:35 or 5:40.

When CJ Wiley was still posting here & had introduced TOI here, I had some 'conversations' with him regarding it. He told me that trying to go back and forth between hitting shots with TOI & hitting them with english spin would drive one nuts. He was correct.

Perhaps it is the same way with using english. If one regularly uses it, it's not a real problem.

But, if one mainly plays using center & only occasionally pulls out english then one is going to be less comfortable using english.

How does that saying go? 'Use it or loose it'.

Oh, as for the KISS thing. English is not complex for me. I never think of the parameters that come into play just as a pitcher never thinks of the physics in throwing a curve ball.

If I had to do that or did, I too would be scared & would shy away from it to, but as I said, if I had to predominately hit with just center, I would probably quit the game.

Good Luck with your new method & Shoot Well.
 
One point I did forget to mention in faor of english is that sometimes the difficulty of the table comes into play. I'm much more likely to use a firmer stroke with less english on a gc than a diamond. Especially a tight diamond and especially when shooting down the rail. On a diamond with 4" pockets a little spin goes a long way.
 
Where did I say anyone said to 'never' use english. You employ a tactic with which I have come rather familiar.

It seems that it is you that does not understand the parameters of the subject.

Some judgement should be & is used on every shot... even as to where on the vertical axis one decides from their judgement where to hit.

The 'best' answer for YOU & in YOUR OPINON regarding english may be less or none.

But for those of us, like Jaden & others, that are experienced, comfortable, & confident in the use of english the 'answer' is why not use english as it is advantageous to do so.

I encourage everyone to learn, become efficient with, be comfortable with, & confident in the use of english.

Whether or not they choose to do so is up to them, but it should be them that makes that decision & they should not be discouraged from trying to up their game by adding a tool.

As I have said the ability to use english can be what separates Very Good Players from the crowd of mediocrity.

Some would be scared to death to attempt to hit a an 85mph baseball if they saw one up close. But over some time one can loose that fear after they foul a couple off & realize how close they are to hitting one.

You have a nice day.:smile:

PS There is a good chance that you are not on the same page as others as you seem to be specifically focused on one shot at a time & not the general idea of how one builds & executes their game.


You said it in the quote below. On the same page.

Carry on

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::


I agree with Jaden on this subject but would like to add that your post, like so many others, seems to want to discourage others from learning & using english, when that ability is usually what separates very good players from the mediocre crowd.

I would encourage others to learn english & how to use it to their advantage rather than be discouraging of it.

Like Jaden said there is hardly a shot that can not be enhanced by the use of some form of english. In other words, nearly every shot can be enhanced by the use of some form of english in one way or another.

There are shots that GOOD position can not be reached by hitting just on the vertical axis & without the use of some form of english. Can a position just to have a shot be reached with just center? Yes... but will it be one that makes the next shape easy?

Games are won or lost by the separation of a shot hit with no english & a shot hit with the proper english & as I said that is usually what separates the Very Good Players for the mediocre crowd.

All of the above are just my opinions based on my 4+ decades experience in playing the game.

That said, I wish you much success with your decision to go in the direction that you have chosen.

Best Wishes & Shoot Well.
 
One point I did forget to mention in faor of english is that sometimes the difficulty of the table comes into play. I'm much more likely to use a firmer stroke with less english on a gc than a diamond. Especially a tight diamond and especially when shooting down the rail. On a diamond with 4" pockets a little spin goes a long way.

Rock,

The hall I mostly play at has mostly Gold Growns with 3 - 9 foot Diamond tables with what if measured very precisely are less the 4" pockets.

I use english on both makes with no real difference other than perhaps hitting a bit softer on the Diamonds & obviously it is not as easy to cheat the tight differently cut Diamond pockets, especially at any real distance.

If you hit with a bit of the correct side english & 'softly', it can help slight misses for certain angles actually pocket even on the Diamonds.

That, in effect, widens the pocket a bit, but not literally as PJ is likely to jump in & remind us of the obvious.

With so many seemingly, shall we say, shy of english, I am starting to wonder if many are simply using too much quantity of english for what they intend to do... or are they playing english with a formula or are they relying on incorrect BHE squirt compensations?

We'll probably never know.

IMO, Playing with english is, or should be a "feel" thing & not a mechanical or formula proposition.

Coiln's thread regarding BHE in the Aiming forum might show some if they are making mistakes or might help expand what they can do.
 
You said it in the quote below. On the same page.

Carry on

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::

Are you reading between the lines again &/or do you not know what the words seems & discourage actually mean?

Oooops! I failed to TOTALLY ignore another of your seemingly immature posts. Perhaps if I could eventually do that perhaps it would discourage you from putting them on display.

You have a Nice Evening.:smile:

PS Can you remember the time when you deceitfully seemed to be befriending me before you 'stabbed me in the back' & I responded accordingly?
I guess Burt was right in 'The Hustler'. Character is an important trait in a human being even if he really did not know what Good Character is
about.

PPS I'm obviously not the Best Christian & need to work on my turning of the other cheek. But I actually do have well wishes for you even if I
won't sit idly by & let you try to run all over me.
 
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Here comes the hate!

This is a discussion that will never die. It baffles me, however, that so many people accept the premises of the anti-english crowd, without any critical analysis. Many of them are just plain wrong, especially when applied to an advanced player. This is my case for the (frequent) use of english.

For the sake of my analysis we will call the sum of the cue balls speed and spin its "energy".

1. All pockets have a range of speed in which it will more easily accept a ball. If the OBJECT ball approaches the pocket at speed faster than this range or in rare cases, slower, the pocket is more likely to reject the ball.

2. Most players have a comfort zone for the speed of their stroke. At high or extremely slow speeds, many players tend to be less accurate.

3. Whenever the cueball and object ball collide at very slow speeds, there is an added risk of cling or bad contact.

4. Whenever an object ball is close to, or frozen to a rail, using sidespin will give the cueball many more possible directions in which to move.

Knowing these four things we can conclude the following:

A: Using sidespin will make it possible to keep the object ball speed within the pockets acceptance range, even for shots where the cueball has to move a long way, because the sidespin will add energy to the cue ball, which will translate to movement when hitting rails, while keeping the object ball speed the same (more or less).

B: Likewise, using sidespin will allow the cueball to be moving very slowly, while still cutting the ball cleanly, because the relative speeds of the colliding surfaces will be higher than a plain rolling or sliding cue ball.

C: If you have a shot that calls for either an extremely slow rolling cueball hit with an awkward slow stroke, or a very hard shot (with centerball), english will give you many opitions using a comfortable medium stroke, by the use of either "kill english" or "running english". Thus you get to keep your stroke in its more comfortable range.

D: English will make position routes from rail shots possible, that just arent possible with center ball.


5. Many "anti-english" advocates state flatly that shooting most shots without english makes you more accurate. I reject this argument. It is true that certain elevated shots, from the rail or over a ball, and long shots hit with an unfamiliar "off" speed can be tricky, but most medium or short range shots can be greatly simplified by adding either a touch of inside or a touch of outside english. It is true that at the extremes of english it can sometimes be a bit tougher, but in those cases you will most likely have weighed that against other factors. For most common shots, adding a controlled amount of english for an advanced player will either be positive for the pocketing ability or more or less neutral in its effects, once the other factors have been accounted for.

6. English does not make you lose control of the cueball speed. I don't know what nincompoop came up with this "gem" but I'm pretty sure he didn't play at a high level. Mike Sigel shot most of his shots with a touch of outside. How good was his cueball control? I can only guess that the person(s) responsible for this drivel shoots all their english shots with one "amount" of tip offset and only at a small, select range of speeds. Otherwise it makes no sense at all. If anything, english greatly increases cueball control by making ideal angles possible, which will greatly increase the range of speeds within which the shot will be a success. It will also help with holding the ball or making it run respectively, which also increases error margins.

7. Snooker players...blah, blah. Snooker is a game I know quite a bit about. It is played on a much larger surface, which means most shots will have plenty of time to alter the tangent angle of the cueball before it hits a rail. Snooker rails have square noses which means that they will not grab the cueball as much. As a result you will get much less of a change of angle from your english. The snooker cloth is usually slower and the balls are lighter which makes them hold on to spin for a shorter time. In addition the cloth has a nap, which causes all kinds of weird effects, which would surprise most naive pool players. To defeat the nap you need to shoot most shots a bit firmer than on a Simonis surface, or somehow account for the effects. The sum of this is that english is A BIT less useful than on a pool table. That still doesn't mean that snooker players don't use english A LOT more than they are given credit for.

END RANT
 
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^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

I messed up in my haste but Here's 3 Thumbs Up!

I can't Green Rep you again yet, but I am glad you changed your mind from that time that you were considering leaving AZB.
 
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^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

I messed up in my haste but Here's 3 Thumbs Up!

I can't Green Rep you again yet, but I am glad you changed your mind from that time that you were considering leaving AZB.

Thank you. If someone likes my posts, I think it's worthwhile to put up with some nonsense every now and then. I'm expecting getting a response with just one of my sentences quoted out of context any time now.:wink:

I could go into a lot more detail on the nature of 9 ball position plays ideal angles etc...But all in all it would be a lot of work for a very low payoff. Suffice it to say I have a few more rounds in the chamber for this discussion.
 
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

I messed up in my haste but Here's 3 Thumbs Up!

I can't Green Rep you again yet, but I am glad you changed your mind from that time that you were considering leaving AZB.

i sent a greenie before i got to your post....:wink:
 
Thank you. If someone likes my posts, I think it's worthwhile to put up with some nonsense every now and then. I'm expecting getting a response with just one of my sentences quoted out of context any time now.:wink:

I could go into a lot more detail on the nature of 9 ball position plays ideal angles etc...But all in all it would be a lot of work for a very low payoff. Suffice it to say I have a few more rounds in the chamber for this discussion.

Yeah,

I saw that out of context tactic earlier today.

What you say about the amount of work for low payoff may certainly be true, but also it puts more out there to be 'attacked' & nit picked & then even more time must be spent to try to fix the damage that 'they' do.

It's like Mikjary has said, it's only a hand full or two that are stifling what could be good discussions that could be beneficial to others & it's sad.

Double that Green Rep that bbb/Larry sent you.

:thumbup:
 
This is a discussion that will never die. It baffles me, however, that so many people accept the premises of the anti-english crowd, without any critical analysis. Many of them are just plain wrong, especially when applied to an advanced player. This is my case for the (frequent) use of english.

For the sake of my analysis we will call the sum of the cue balls speed and spin its "energy".

1. All pockets have a range of speed in which it will more easily accept a ball. If the OBJECT ball approaches the pocket at speed faster than this range or in rare cases, slower, the pocket is more likely to reject the ball.

2. Most players have a comfort zone for the speed of their stroke. At high or extremely slow speeds, many players tend to be less accurate.

3. Whenever the cueball and object ball collide at very slow speeds, there is an added risk of cling or bad contact.

4. Whenever an object ball is close to, or frozen to a rail, using sidespin will give the cueball many more possible directions in which to move.

Knowing these four things we can conclude the following:

A: Using sidespin will make it possible to keep the object ball speed within the pockets acceptance range, even for shots where the cueball has to move a long way, because the sidespin will add energy to the cue ball, which will translate to movement when hitting rails, while keeping the object ball speed the same (more or less).

B: Likewise, using sidespin will allow the cueball to be moving very slowly, while still cutting the ball cleanly, because the relative speeds of the colliding surfaces will be higher than a plain rolling or sliding cue ball.

C: If you have a shot that calls for either an extremely slow rolling cueball hit with an awkward slow stroke, or a very hard shot (with centerball), english will give you many opitions using a comfortable medium stroke, by the use of either "kill english" or "running english". Thus you get to keep your stroke in its more comfortable range.

D: English will make position routes from rail shots possible, that just arent possible with center ball.


5. Many "anti-english" advocates state flatly that shooting most shots without english makes you more accurate. I reject this argument. It is true that certain elevated shots, from the rail or over a ball, and long shots hit with an unfamiliar "off" speed can be tricky, but most medium or short range shots can be greatly simplified by adding either a touch of inside or a touch of outside english. It is true that at the extremes of english it can sometimes be a bit tougher, but in those cases you will most likely have weighed that against other factors. For most common shots, adding a controlled amount of english for an advanced player will either be positive for the pocketing ability or more or less neutral in its effects, once the other factors have been accounted for.

6. English does not make you lose control of the cueball speed. I don't know what nincompoop came up with this "gem" but I'm pretty sure he didn't play at a high level. Mike Sigel shot most of his shots with a touch of outside. How good was his cueball control? I can only guess that the person(s) responsible for this drivel shoots all their english shots with one "amount" of tip offset and only at a small, select range of speeds. Otherwise it makes no sense at all. If anything, english greatly increases cueball control by making ideal angles possible, which will greatly increase the range of speeds within which the shot will be a success. It will also help with holding the ball or making it run respectively, which also increases error margins.

7. Snooker players...blah, blah. Snooker is a game I know quite a bit about. It is played on a much larger surface, which means most shots will have plenty of time to alter the tangent angle of the cueball before it hits a rail. Snooker rails have square noses which means that they will not grab the cueball as much. As a result you will get much less of a change of angle from your english. The snooker cloth is usually slower and the balls are lighter which makes them hold on to spin for a shorter time. In addition the cloth has a nap, which causes all kinds of weird effects, which would surprise most naive pool players. To defeat the nap you need to shoot most shots a bit firmer than on a Simonis surface, or somehow account for the effects. The sum of this is that english is A BIT less useful than on a pool table. That still doesn't mean that snooker players don't use english A LOT more than they are given credit for.

END RANT

Many?

Show me one.
 
Are you reading between the lines again &/or do you not know what the words seems & discourage actually mean?

Oooops! I failed to TOTALLY ignore another of your seemingly immature posts. Perhaps if I could eventually do that perhaps it would discourage you from putting them on display.

You have a Nice Evening.:smile:

PS Can you remember the time when you deceitfully seemed to be befriending me before you 'stabbed me in the back' & I responded accordingly?
I guess Burt was right in 'The Hustler'. Character is an important trait in a human being even if he really did not know what Good Character is
about.

PPS I'm obviously not the Best Christian & need to work on my turning of the other cheek. But I actually do have well wishes for you even if I
won't sit idly by & let you try to run all over me.

You can twist your words all you want.

#sopredictable
 
Many "anti-english" advocates state flatly that shooting most shots without english makes you more accurate. I reject this argument.
...
For most common shots, adding a controlled amount of english for an advanced player will either be positive for the pocketing ability or more or less neutral in its effects, once the other factors have been accounted for.
Using side spin decreases pocketing accuracy for anybody whenever it's used - because it adds an estimated adjustment for squirt and swerve that doesn't exist without it. There's simply no escaping that simple fact. Denying it is the same as saying you can shoot an arrow or a rifle with the same (or better?!) accuracy with or without a crosswind.

That doesn't mean it should never be used - it doesn't even mean it shouldn't be used on most shots. But it does mean the reduced pocketing accuracy should be taken into account when deciding whether or how much to use.

pj
chgo
 
Using side spin decreases pocketing accuracy for anybody whenever it's used - because it adds an estimated adjustment for squirt and swerve that doesn't exist without it. There's simply no escaping that simple fact. Denying it is the same as saying you can shoot an arrow or a rifle with the same (or better?!) accuracy with or without a crosswind.

That doesn't mean it should never be used - it doesn't even mean it shouldn't be used on most shots. But it does mean the reduced pocketing accuracy should be taken into account when deciding whether or how much to use.

pj
chgo

Well, you are forgetting one thing: THROW! I will also admit that I skipped that factor in my post, but it was allready too long. Without throw we wouldn't have 9000 bogus aiming systems. TOO and TOI simplifies the estimation of throw by allowing you to aim at the ghostball for every cut, practically, even if they use different principles to get there. After a while the cueballs curving path becomes part of the subconscious, and less of a problem than most make it out to be. Once an experienced shoooter knows the wind speed and direction at the firing range, he will adjust his sights and be pretty much dead on most of the time.

Misjudging throw is a huge culprit in missing pool shots, but I agree that squirt and swerve also do play a role.

I also notice that you are being very reasonable:grin:. This must be a trap of some sort, lol.
 
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Many?

Show me one.

You really are......... nevermind.

This man knows more about the cueing arts than you could ever hope to learn.

He was thinking about leaving AZB, but I suggested that he would be missed & is an asset to AZB & should reconsider. I am glad that he did.

CJ, even with his thick skin & awesome attitude seems to have had enough & is no longer posting.

What do YOU want AZB to become? A Gum Ball Machine or a Candy Store?
 
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You can twist your words all you want.

#sopredictable

No twisting of words at all, unlike you & your hero.

You just don't seem to know what many words actually mean & make your own incorrect assumptions as to what they mean, perhaps biased by your agendas.
 
Many?

Show me one.

I'll give you a famous one: Danny Diliberto. He's knowledgable and skilled enough to make me think twice about my positon. I will say that he is more extreme in his views than most others, though.

There is also a vagueness in many peoples positon that leaves their exact opinions open to interpretation. "Unless necessesary" is very, very vague. Those exact words makes me think that english is an evil that should be avoided, that may just be me though. In reality we are all at a point along the scale. I will say that I think I am way out to the side compared to many on this forum. If I'm not, I could not be happier. It would mean that people are more reasonable than I thought:D.
 
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