Centerball...haters gonna hate
- Thread starter ktrepal85
- Start date
Yep. We'd all jump up to play SVB if he only had to hit dead center on the ball... no vertical axis. But playing him with the entire vertical axis, and absolutely NO English... No thanks, I'll pass
I will say learning to hit center is one of the most important fundamental things you need to do to learn to control the cue ball. I had been struggling with this and one thing I noticed (after someone said something to me) is that I used spin on just about every shot to some degree or another in an attempt to get shape. And I was failing at it.
My own drill practice showed that every shot I took had spin on it (typically right) and thus threw the ball in one direction or the other. I have taken some time to learn to hit center and made it a point to stop using spin on purpose all together for a period of time. There was an adjustment time as balls I would typically make because of CIT I was missing, but I adjusted. I am still working through it and continued to practice hitting center ball natural roll no matter the shape it gives me.
With this I have learned a great deal of better cue ball control hitting only center axis and using the tangent line adjusting with speed/top/bottom. I am still working on it but now pretty much the only time I purposely try to use spin is when a shot ABSOLUTELY requires it. This has given me more consistent control of the cue ball I did not have while using spin all the time.
I discovered spin was introducing so many other variables into the shot that aren't needed very often. How much of a 90 degree angle you hit the rail affects how much spin induced throw is introduced, how hard you hit it, how much cling from the cloth of the rail, etc. In essence I think it came down to me trying to work the cue ball with something less consistent (side) instead of letting it do the work for me through it's natural path.
Just with my improvement to date, I would be willing to bet that a good player can use only center axis and get the ball to pretty much the same needed shape, if not the same spot, any one of you can using spin on a vast majority of the shots. Notice I did not say to the same spot always, as most times that "spot" is not nearly as important as the needed shot window which extends the entire length of the table and placing it anywhere in that window gives you the exact same needed shape on the next ball. I believe trying to get to that "spot" when it really is not needed is holding back many players I know, including myself. Sure there are times you need to place it in a window that only spin will get you to, however, a vast majority of windows needed can be gotten to with the simplicity of center ball. I know I have caught myself numerous times still thinking I HAD to use spin and then the little pool angel on my shoulder reminds me to KISS, so I adjust and am glad I did.
My own drill practice showed that every shot I took had spin on it (typically right) and thus threw the ball in one direction or the other. I have taken some time to learn to hit center and made it a point to stop using spin on purpose all together for a period of time. There was an adjustment time as balls I would typically make because of CIT I was missing, but I adjusted. I am still working through it and continued to practice hitting center ball natural roll no matter the shape it gives me.
With this I have learned a great deal of better cue ball control hitting only center axis and using the tangent line adjusting with speed/top/bottom. I am still working on it but now pretty much the only time I purposely try to use spin is when a shot ABSOLUTELY requires it. This has given me more consistent control of the cue ball I did not have while using spin all the time.
I discovered spin was introducing so many other variables into the shot that aren't needed very often. How much of a 90 degree angle you hit the rail affects how much spin induced throw is introduced, how hard you hit it, how much cling from the cloth of the rail, etc. In essence I think it came down to me trying to work the cue ball with something less consistent (side) instead of letting it do the work for me through it's natural path.
Just with my improvement to date, I would be willing to bet that a good player can use only center axis and get the ball to pretty much the same needed shape, if not the same spot, any one of you can using spin on a vast majority of the shots. Notice I did not say to the same spot always, as most times that "spot" is not nearly as important as the needed shot window which extends the entire length of the table and placing it anywhere in that window gives you the exact same needed shape on the next ball. I believe trying to get to that "spot" when it really is not needed is holding back many players I know, including myself. Sure there are times you need to place it in a window that only spin will get you to, however, a vast majority of windows needed can be gotten to with the simplicity of center ball. I know I have caught myself numerous times still thinking I HAD to use spin and then the little pool angel on my shoulder reminds me to KISS, so I adjust and am glad I did.
lining up on center...
Being able to accurately line up on center is important for anyone, not just those who are trying to hit center ball.
Just because I use side spin on most shots to one degree or another, doesn't mean I don't need to be able to line up on center. In fact, being a user of BHE, it might be MORE important for me.
I found that one of the things that was causing me to miss was rushing my initial line and starting off center so part of my preshot routine is to double check I'm lined up on center before I change for any sidespin.
Jaden
Being able to accurately line up on center is important for anyone, not just those who are trying to hit center ball.
Just because I use side spin on most shots to one degree or another, doesn't mean I don't need to be able to line up on center. In fact, being a user of BHE, it might be MORE important for me.
I found that one of the things that was causing me to miss was rushing my initial line and starting off center so part of my preshot routine is to double check I'm lined up on center before I change for any sidespin.
Jaden
I agree with Jaden on this subject but would like to add that your post, like so many others, seems to want to discourage others from learning & using english, when that ability is usually what separates very good players from the mediocre crowd.
I would encourage others to learn english & how to use it to their advantage rather than be discouraging of it.
Like Jaden said there is hardly a shot that can not be enhanced by the use of some form of english. In other words, nearly every shot can be enhanced by the use of some form of english in one way or another.
There are shots that GOOD position can not be reached by hitting just on the vertical axis & without the use of some form of english. Can a position just to have a shot be reached with just center? Yes... but will it be one that makes the next shape easy?
Games are won or lost by the separation of a shot hit with no english & a shot hit with the proper english & as I said that is usually what separates the Very Good Players for the mediocre crowd.
All of the above are just my opinions based on my 4+ decades experience in playing the game.
That said, I wish you much success with your decision to go in the direction that you have chosen.
Best Wishes & Shoot Well.
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
Seeing as how this has turned into a 'good position is impossible at times without english' thread, I guess I'll share my experiences.
I started playing pool at 13 and started using english a few minutes later. I think I have used more english while playing pool than anyone I know.
Recently, however, my game has gotten better by leaps. I attribute it to me accepting worse shape so I can give myself the best chance at making the ball I am on...which, even for me, means less english.
I started playing pool at 13 and started using english a few minutes later. I think I have used more english while playing pool than anyone I know.
Recently, however, my game has gotten better by leaps. I attribute it to me accepting worse shape so I can give myself the best chance at making the ball I am on...which, even for me, means less english.
Even if this is true, it ignores the very real cost of using English: more missed shots. The "enhancement" gained must be worth the cost - and many times it simply isn't.
pj
chgo
It's a balancing act between the difficulty of this shot and the next. Learning this lesson is one of the things that sets the best players apart. We see the pros do it more than lesser mortals.
pj <- lesser mortal
chgo
I will first start by saying I don't believe he is trying to discourage the use of english but he did put it in to the proper context. English as you say is a very powerful tool when used properly and most importantly when needed. Yes the Pros do use English but if you watch very closely they use the center axis alot more. English is used primarily when out of proper position, to create different lines off the rails or to throw balls in. Center ball and center axis is the foundation for position play!
Why did CJ say he lined up just a little inside?
Why did Donny Mills agree with him one time on here?
Whh did Shane say on TAR that he lined up just a little outside?
Why did Mike Sigal say he lines up just alittle outside?
Is there any advantage to doing this?
Why did Donny Mills agree with him one time on here?
Whh did Shane say on TAR that he lined up just a little outside?
Why did Mike Sigal say he lines up just alittle outside?
Is there any advantage to doing this?
I NEVER consider missing a shot because of the variables that you keep pointing out in order to discourage others from using english.
Naturally if one has not put in the time to be comfortable & efficient using english then they may have doubts & that doubt alone can be detrimental.
Again, you pick & choice a small except to 'quote' out of context on which to make you comments.
It rarely does any good to pocket one ball & then not to have shape to move on to WIN the game. Naturally, pocketing the ball is the first concern.
Sometimes shooting the most difficult shot on the table that requires english FIRST is the shot that results in an EASY WIN.
Not being ready, willing, & able to use english is rather like a tennis player that can not hit a topspin backhand. They have a weakness in their game & can not match up to a complete player.
You have a nice day.:smile:
Try playing tennis or ping pong hitting every shot flat with no spin & see how many games you win.
Try throwing a baseball when not a specialist knuckle ball pitcher to any other player with no spin.
Try bowling while purposely not curving the ball & check how well you score.
Try hitting a golf ball with a driver where it spins perfectly vertical & see how many out of 16 times you actually can do that.
I know, or at least I think that I know you get the point.
A ball is very apt to spin & is usually an advantage when one is trying to make one move for very many given purposes.
Perhaps too many are afraid to try to be better. It sort of reminds me of the movie about Jimmy Pierrsal. The Title was 'Fear Strikes Out'.
I know all of the above are not exact analogies. They are just MY thoughts.
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You say much that has been often preached.
I'll just comment on your last sentence.
If one lays a foundation & NEVER builds on it, one will always remain out in the cold & on the ground floor.
Being ready, willing, able, & comfortable using english is, IMHO, what separates many Very Good Players from the very crowded level of mediocre.
I wish you complete success in what ever method you have decided to utilize.
That is part of the issue. Everyone should make their own determinations & NOT be discouraged from trying whatever one wishes to try.
To me, these 'forum battles' on this subject seem to only occur when someone implies that using english is 'Bad' 'Dangerous' 'Undsirebale' 'Risky' ' Not Necessary' 'Not Really Beneficial', etc. All discouraging type comments.
To me, it's sort of like saying a really good Soprano does not really need to hit the high notes.
Best Wishes & Shoot Well.
Who has said to never use English? As usual you misunderstand (note that I don't accuse you of ulterior motives).
The simple message, for those who can understand it, is that some judgement should be used in choosing whether and how much English to use, considering the pros and cons. The best answer is often less or none.
pj
chgo
Try listening to what people say. Nobody is proposing no English. Nobody should be proposing English on every shot.
pj
chgo
As pointed out I did not say you should never use English. It is like side pockets and bank/kick shots: Avoid them if you can but use them when they will serve you well.
There are certainly times that you need spin, like on near straight shots that do not allow you to leverage the rebound angle from a rail to get shape or you need to kill the cue off the rail with inside, or you can't quite get the angle on a shot but spin will throw it in. However, to put spin on a shot just to put spin on it is adding an element of potential unpredictability that does not need to be there, even if you have grown up learning to gear the ball.
Picking the most difficult shot on the table and using English with it in hopes of getting in position for the easy win, is poor judgement and will fail more than accepting an easier shot that does not require unpredictable elements of side spin yet leaves you with a perfectly make-able shot. That would be a much better choice 100% of the time and good smart players know that so they pick shots they know will keep them at the table and shooting. They don't take unnecessary chances in the hopes it keeps them at the table just to improve the "easy win" factor by 5-10%. I would be willing to bet using English has failed all of us more times than we are willing to admit or can even remember.
Your example of tennis (and other sports) is quite silly. Without top spin in tennis almost every single shot will go out of bounds as top spin is the only thing that keeps it in play so it is absolutely necessary to use. I can run a perfect game without having to use side a single time, lets see a pitcher or a tennis player do that. Let's see them try it using spin only a couple times over the course of the game, which is more typical. They will fail 100% of the time.
Now again, I am not saying to never use side. I am simply saying to only use it when it is absolutely needed and I certainly would never encourage a beginner to use it as part of their early development.
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Where did I say anyone said to 'never' use english. You employ a tactic with which I have come rather familiar.
It seems that it is you that does not understand the parameters of the subject.
Some judgement should be & is used on every shot... even as to where on the vertical axis one decides from their judgement where to hit.
The 'best' answer for YOU & in YOUR OPINON regarding english may be less or none.
But for those of us, like Jaden & others, that are experienced, comfortable, & confident in the use of english the 'answer' is why not use english as it is advantageous to do so.
I encourage everyone to learn, become efficient with, be comfortable with, & confident in the use of english.
Whether or not they choose to do so is up to them, but it should be them that makes that decision & they should not be discouraged from trying to up their game by adding a tool.
As I have said the ability to use english can be what separates Very Good Players from the crowd of mediocrity.
Some would be scared to death to attempt to hit a an 85mph baseball if they saw one up close. But over some time one can loose that fear after they foul a couple off & realize how close they are to hitting one.
You have a nice day.:smile:
PS There is a good chance that you are not on the same page as others as you seem to be specifically focused on one shot at a time & not the general idea of how one builds & executes their game.
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Let me start by saying that upon the reading of your post I took to have bit of an arrogant & rather condescending tone. That maybe due to the text only format. So... I am not sure regarding you intentions.
So... with all due respect, I think perhaps you should read Satorie's post about Mike Sigel & the like with some thought.
I admitted that my 'analogies' were not perfect nor were they intended to be & that is why I readily admitted such. I thought admitting such would precluded such a attack on them. They were about round balls in other sports, being the same shape as pool balls, & the common thing in all of them being that a round ball is apt or prone to spin & is usually advantageous when trying to move a ball in a certain manner for a certain purpose.
If you think one can not hit a tennis ball flat or with under spin & get it into the court you know nothing, I repeat nothing, about tennis. Either that or there was a miscommunication somewhere.
I think too many have a picture of an extremely spinning ball running all over the table out of control. That is not how one plays with english even if they are hitting off center on nearly every shot. It is done with control & with only has much as 'needed' to accomplish the goal.
It's not always about trying to get the CB to a SPOT but rather on a side or on an angle of approach. As Jaden said earlier, the center hit shot & the path that it will take can always be enhanced by english.
Do you think that someone like Mike Sigel that hits his shots with outside does not know how to control what he does, or someone like Jaden or myself do not know how to control what we do?
One will never become proficient with anything if one 'never' or rarely has ever done it. Almost everything, to do well, takes experience & one will never get experience if one never dives in & does it.
I WOULD suggest that a beginner start learning to use english as soon as they have a reasonably straight stroke & that THEY decide when & how they choose to use it. If they do not find it beneficial then they will cease to use it, but if they see it as an aid then they will then look to continue with it. IMO, one should not stop working on every aspect of what will ultimately be required until just one aspect is 'perfected'. Life is only so long & a 'career' is even shorter.
There is more than one purpose or reason that we play the game & only each individual knows what that is for themselves. I am not trying to impose my will or my way on anyone. But, IMO, I see rather many that seem to be trying to discourage others from adding the tool to their tool box because it is a bit of a high tech tool, or... it's don't take the high tech tool out of the box & use it even though the result could be better. Just use the plain open end wrench & keep the socket wrench in the box. That analogy is not 'perfect' either.
Anyway, we disagree on this subject,
Best Wishes & Shoot Well.
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It was worth another view. Solid. I like the tip view too, never seen that!