Does a touch of outside...

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
No, when it comes to things that happen on the pool table or things we think we are doing while playing, I only state things as fact when they are actually provable fact, and state things as theory when they are supported by a preponderance of the evidence but are not yet proven, and have both the intelligence and knowledge to always know the difference. And when I just don't know, I say so, or say my guess is just that, a guess.

Your problem is that you try to argue things that you don't have a clue about, and you don't have the self awareness or intelligence or knowledge or typically some combination thereof to realize that you don't have a clue. You also have the arrogance to argue with those that even you know to be many times more intelligent and more educated on a topic than you. Like I said before, you would argue the details of nuclear fission with a nuclear physicist. No matter that you don't have a clue about something, you are going to have the strongest possible opinion on the matter and nobody is ever going to be able to change your mind. Bet those character traits have served you real well in life.

Would you say that a 'known scientific 'fact' could be proven incorrect by more scientific study & then the previous 'know scientific fact' would no longer be such.

There has been no where near the scientific study in certain areas for some of what is put forth as 'fact' to be legitimately called fact. Theory perhaps but not fact when so little study has been done in those areas.

Wording & attitude can be rather misleading to those that do not know any better.

Do some individuals have motives for such or are they just naive about the reality?

I'm not the only one that knows that a lack of sufficient study has been done. I guess those few others have just learned that it's not worth the abuse to tell the truth about that in public & possibly squelch the favorite myths of some.

I may soon join them but I am a big supporter of the real truth vs truth based on conjectured. And I am also not a fan of others being misled.

But I & those other few may be up against insurmountable odds.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Would you say that a 'known scientific 'fact' could be proven incorrect by more scientific study & then the previous 'know scientific fact' would no longer be such.

There has been no where near the scientific study in certain areas for some of what is put forth as 'fact' to be legitimately called fact. Theory perhaps but not fact when so little study has been done in those areas.

Wording & attitude can be rather misleading to those that do not know any better.

Do some individuals have motives for such or are they just naive about the reality?
tk of sufficient study has been done. I guess those few others have just learned that it's not worth the abuse to tell the truth about that in public & possibly squelch the favorite myths of some.

I may soon join them but I am a big supporter of the real truth vs truth based on conjectured. And I am also not a fan of others being misled.

But I & those other few may be up against insurmountable odds.

What you don't seem to understand, is that you are totally willing to dismiss what test have been done without doing any research to disprove them. You want to just dismiss them because you don't happen to like the outcome. If you want to rail against them, then come up with some actual evidence, not just "because I think they are wrong". That just doesn't cut it in any way.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
What you don't seem to understand, is that you are totally willing to dismiss what test have been done without doing any research to disprove them. You want to just dismiss them because you don't happen to like the outcome. If you want to rail against them, then come up with some actual evidence, not just "because I think they are wrong". That just doesn't cut it in any way.


It's not that I don't LIKE the conclusions that were drawn. Why would I like or dislike them? To what purpose?

It's that the conclusions were made from conjecture, which by definition is an opinion or conclusion from insufficient information.

You DO accept conclusions that were based on conjecture. Do you realize that fact?

Some statements need or should have qualifiers. Otherwise, they can be misleading to those that do not know any better.

Can you feel the difference between the hardest leather tip & the softest leather tip?

If so, what is it exactly that you are feeling?

Those are rhetorical questions.

I don't want to argue with you & I don't need you telling me with your imagined omniscience what it is that I don't understand & what it is that I want to do.

Do you really expect me or anyone to make the rather large monetary investment & then spend the time to do all of the necessary scientific tests & studies that are now lacking just to convince you?

That is partly what an education is about so that one can learn from what has been done & not have to do it for themselves.

Those kind of things can be found in H.S. & College Physics Books.

What is it that you are even arguing about? Do you even know?
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's not that I don't LIKE the conclusions that were drawn. Why would I like or dislike them? To what purpose?

It's that the conclusions were made from conjecture, which by definition is an opinion or conclusion from insufficient information.

You DO accept conclusions that were based on conjecture. Do you realize that fact?

Some statements need or should have qualifiers. Otherwise, they can be misleading to those that do not know any better.

Can you feel the difference between the hardest leather tip & the softest leather tip?

If so, what is it exactly that you are feeling?

Those are rhetorical questions.

I don't want to argue with you & I don't need you telling me with your imagined omniscience what it is that I don't understand & what it is that I want to do.

Do you really expect me or anyone to make the rather large monetary investment & then spend the time to do all of the necessary scientific tests & studies that are now lacking just to convince you?

That is partly what an education is about so that one can learn from what has been done & not have to do it for themselves.

Those kind of things can be found in H.S. & College Physics Books.

What is it that you are even arguing about? Do you even know?


Rick, try reading what YOU wrote, I put it in red for you. I totally agree with the statement. It's you that doesn't. You refuse to learn from what has been done already and just dismiss it out of hand with no evidence of any kind to support your dismissal.
 

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This thread is beginning to make my head hurt.

FWIW, TOI works for people who take the time to understand how it works. It isn't the "cure all" for anyone or anything, but it is a system that works very well for me and some others.

I'm not going to get into all the scientific BS about the subject of what does what, but if anyone puts in the time, they usually will learn a bit of something. Whether they find it useful is up to them.

Staying "inside" the cue ball makes the game much easier for me, but it may be a bit too much for those who don't take the time to learn it. Most of the players I've seen over the years are "hesitant" to use inside because they don't use inside enough to become totally comfortable with it. I am just as comfortable using inside as outside and I use both. However, I play my patterns so that I can stay "inside" on the ball if the table allows it. I play "inside" until I can't and then I use "something else" to try to get back in line so that I can start using "inside" all over again.

Some people do the exact opposite with "outside". It is up to you. Why not learn both?
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
What you don't seem to understand, is that you are totally willing to dismiss what test have been done without doing any research to disprove them. You want to just dismiss them because you don't happen to like the outcome. If you want to rail against them, then come up with some actual evidence, not just "because I think they are wrong". That just doesn't cut it in any way.

Heh heh, I keep the screen large enough that I can not see the poster, just the comments. So I was about to refer to the thread where he proposed that I could have used a crooked stick in one post then the next accepted that as fact and continued on with his argument. Then I saw it was you Neil, and know you are familiar with that thread too.

For any that are not familiar with his passive aggressive style, check out this discussion. Practical demonstration of cue tip path with a Pendulum stroke.
First he says:
I am not so sure that it is a straight piece of wood. The small arc being on the 'wrong' side made me think of that. If the wood has any bow in it, that would certainly effect the tracking.

A few posts later he accepts it as fact:
Apparently it is curved ........
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Heh heh, I keep the screen large enough that I can not see the poster, just the comments. So I was about to refer to the thread where he proposed that I could have used a crooked stick in one post then the next accepted that as fact and continued on with his argument. Then I saw it was you Neil, and know you are familiar with that thread too.

For any that are not familiar with his passive aggressive style, check out this discussion. Practical demonstration of cue tip path with a Pendulum stroke.
First he says:
I am not so sure that it is a straight piece of wood. The small arc being on the 'wrong' side made me think of that. If the wood has any bow in it, that would certainly effect the tracking.

A few posts later he accepts it as fact:
Apparently it is curved ........

He still denies that it will track straight for the few inches required.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Rick, try reading what YOU wrote, I put it in red for you. I totally agree with the statement. It's you that doesn't. You refuse to learn from what has been done already and just dismiss it out of hand with no evidence of any kind to support your dismissal.

Neil,

You seem to be very selective as to what you read & are very predicable.

I 'knew' that was coming from you.

Go back & read my ENTIRE post.

If 'testing' was not sufficient to make a definitive conclusion then it was based on conjecture.

Conjecture is making an opinion or a conclusion from insufficient information.

You accept that. I and some others do not.

I am NOT the only one with a some physics education that understands about insufficient testing & insufficient info. from which to form a conclusive definitive conclusion.

Renfro/Chris has done some of his own testing, there have been tests done in Russia. The member Shooting Arts/Hu has a background in research & development that has extensively studied the tests to which I think you refer & he agrees with me that they were very insufficient for the conclusions drawn & that makes them conjecture & NOT scientific fact. A theory perhaps but from insufficient information hence not fact & probably not reliable due to the insufficient info.

Just because it may have been someone with a science degree that formed an opinion based off of insufficient information does not make that opinion or conclusion a scientific fact.

To make a definitive statement based on insufficient information is not prudent to me especially if it tends to go against other general info.

Some say that small differences are not significant & that might be so... for them. For others those small difference might be rather significant.

I did not want to do this with you. So... go ahead & take the last word.

I don't really care what you think you know. You're not going to change unless one of your science gods says that the conjecture has changed due to new info.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Heh heh, I keep the screen large enough that I can not see the poster, just the comments. So I was about to refer to the thread where he proposed that I could have used a crooked stick in one post then the next accepted that as fact and continued on with his argument. Then I saw it was you Neil, and know you are familiar with that thread too.

For any that are not familiar with his passive aggressive style, check out this discussion. Practical demonstration of cue tip path with a Pendulum stroke.
First he says:
I am not so sure that it is a straight piece of wood. The small arc being on the 'wrong' side made me think of that. If the wood has any bow in it, that would certainly effect the tracking.

A few posts later he accepts it as fact:
Apparently it is curved ........

Here we go again. You've totally misrepresented that situation & have taken it out of the complete larger context.

It will take me a bit of time but I will once again pull up the CAD print out.
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
You've totally misrepresented that situation & have taken it out of the complete larger context.

That is why I linked it all!

As Judge Judy would say, "On my worst day and you on your best day, I am smarter than you are," Mr. 98 percentile IQ.:rolleyes:
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
That is why I linked it all!

As Judge Judy would say, "On my worst day and you on your best day, I am smarter than you are," Mr. 98 percentile IQ.:rolleyes:

attachment.php



By the way the results of that poll was that slightly less than 40% of AZBers that responded use a full pendulum stroke. It was a bit less than 4 out of 10.
 
Last edited:

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
This thread is beginning to make my head hurt.

FWIW, TOI works for people who take the time to understand how it works. It isn't the "cure all" for anyone or anything, but it is a system that works very well for me and some others.

I'm not going to get into all the scientific BS about the subject of what does what, but if anyone puts in the time, they usually will learn a bit of something. Whether they find it useful is up to them.

Staying "inside" the cue ball makes the game much easier for me, but it may be a bit too much for those who don't take the time to learn it. Most of the players I've seen over the years are "hesitant" to use inside because they don't use inside enough to become totally comfortable with it. I am just as comfortable using inside as outside and I use both. However, I play my patterns so that I can stay "inside" on the ball if the table allows it. I play "inside" until I can't and then I use "something else" to try to get back in line so that I can start using "inside" all over again.

Some people do the exact opposite with "outside". It is up to you. Why not learn both?

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's not that I don't LIKE the conclusions that were drawn. Why would I like or dislike them? To what purpose?

It's that the conclusions were made from conjecture, which by definition is an opinion or conclusion from insufficient information.

You DO accept conclusions that were based on conjecture. Do you realize that fact?

Some statements need or should have qualifiers. Otherwise, they can be misleading to those that do not know any better.

Can you feel the difference between the hardest leather tip & the softest leather tip?

If so, what is it exactly that you are feeling?

Those are rhetorical questions.

I don't want to argue with you & I don't need you telling me with your imagined omniscience what it is that I don't understand & what it is that I want to do.

Do you really expect me or anyone to make the rather large monetary investment & then spend the time to do all of the necessary scientific tests & studies that are now lacking just to convince you?

That is partly what an education is about so that one can learn from what has been done & not have to do it for themselves.

Those kind of things can be found in H.S. & College Physics Books.

What is it that you are even arguing about? Do you even know?

If I'm ever this senile and pathetic, someone please, just put me out of my misery.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Would you say that a 'known scientific 'fact' could be proven incorrect by more scientific study & then the previous 'know scientific fact' would no longer be such.

No, I wouldn't say that because it almost never happens. Theories on the other hand are proven incorrect a little more often, but even that is relatively rare and when it does happen it is usually with theories which were always acknowledged to be far from certain in the first place.


There has been no where near the scientific study in certain areas for some of what is put forth as 'fact' to be legitimately called fact.

Wrong. Almost everything Bob Jewett and Dr. Dave and Pat Johnson and Mike Page and maybe a couple of others state as fact actually is fact, and very often the proof has even been given on here.

The problem, and I explained this catch 22 to you recently and there really isn't a nicer way to put it other than to flatly state the truth, is that you just aren't intelligent enough and knowledgeable enough to understand the proof. That doesn't in all cases mean that you are dumb. In many cases you don't understand simply because you are being lazy and closed minded and refuse to give the understanding of something a solid open-minded effort, but sometimes some things are just simply beyond the understanding of most people. If everyone was capable of being a physicist or scientist of similar qualifications then most would have been a physicist or other similarly talented scientist instead of whatever they became instead.

You need to learn that just because you don't get something doesn't mean that it isn't true. You need to start deferring a bit more to those that are clearly more intelligent and more educated on a topic than you instead of thinking you know everything and that nobody could ever teach you anything. You will learn a whole lot more that way and be much better and more knowledgeable for it.


Wording & attitude can be rather misleading to those that do not know any better. Do some individuals have motives for such or are they just naive about the reality?

The problem is that you often simply lack the intelligence and knowledge to know fact from theory, not that the wrong terminology was being used. You similarly lack the capacity to understand the proof when the proof is given to you.


I'm not the only one that knows that a lack of sufficient study has been done. I guess those few others have just learned that it's not worth the abuse to tell the truth about that in public & possibly squelch the favorite myths of some.

90% of what you call theory and that "lack of sufficient study has been done" is actually settled fact and you just lack the capacity to understand it. And most of the other 10% while still theory and not yet indisputable proof, is 98+% likely to be the way the "science" guys are saying it likely is based on the evidence. You would still have to be a fool to put your belief in the alternative 2% likely theory, and particularly if you are utterly dismissive of the 98% likely to be true theory that almost all the evidence supports as you typically are.


I may soon join them but I am a big supporter of the real truth vs truth based on conjectured. And I am also not a fan of others being misled.

Oh the irony. You are one of the very worst offenders of misleading others on this entire site. I know that it isn't intentional and that you just don't know any better, and your motives are sincere, but it doesn't change the truth.


But I & those other few may be up against insurmountable odds.

I hope so. Funnily enough, I feel the same. There are just too many idiots spreading misinformation, and just too many gullible and unknowledgeable people that are too easily influenced by it and can fall for it, and it perpetuates. But I sure hope lightning strikes and you are right on this one for once.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
...The problem, and I explained this catch 22 to you recently and there really isn't a nicer way to put it other than to flatly state the truth, is that you just aren't intelligent enough and knowledgeable enough to understand the proof. That doesn't in all cases mean that you are dumb. In many cases you don't understand simply because you are being lazy and closed minded and refuse to give the understanding of something a solid open-minded effort, but sometimes some things are just simply beyond the understanding of most people. If everyone was capable of being a physicist or scientist of similar qualifications then most would have been a physicist or other similarly talented scientist instead of whatever they became instead...

Long reply deleted & replaced with this per Mr. Howerton's advice.
 
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