Do you use an aiming system or go by feel?

[one stroke]

Then why do they campaign so hard to convince people not to try CTE or other aiming systems?



Yet you cannot and will not PROVE that these methods will cripple someone. It's amazing that you go to such an extreme as to make the statement that you think a system tried could cripple a player's game for life. How crippled is Landon Shuffett's game? Do you want any part of that kid in any game?

No you don't because at the age of 21 he will ROB you in every pool game known. Including your beloved straight pool. His father brought him up immersed in CTE, Landon spent time at Hal's house learning Hal's methods.

You have flat out accused Stan Shuffett of being a con man who sells snake oil. Thing is that he wasn't selling anything but lessons UNTIL you guys knocked him so much he decided to make a DVD. Then you accused him of intentionally leaving information out of the DVD so as to make people have to buy lessons.

If the rules were applied you would have been banned many times for your ad hominem and negative attacks and harassment.



Bait and switch how? The poll topic is "Do you use an aiming system or go by feel?"

Those of us who use aiming systems are discussing it from the "uses a system" standpoint. You and several others have been on the attack. Perhaps you should consider that if you didn't get involved the thread would peter out fairly quickly as a bunch of aiming nerds talk shop.

But when YOUR premise is that aiming systems and ESPECIALLY CTE are snake oil then you just can't leave it alone can you?

You will say anything to try and save that one poor hapless player from "crippling his game for life" by trying out CTE as a way to aim. Anything so the poor guy doesn't get led down the wrong path.........

All the positive testimonials from players who did adopt aiming systems and reported improvement mean nothing to you, just deluded shills who have no self-awareness.

Try it one time just staying OUT of a thread like this, you, PJ, Satori, Ron Thaiger Swanson, English, etc... just stay out and watch the thread run it's course and go away once the questions have been answered.

The poll asks s question what do you use ,, not who what where when and how
But answering a simple question and moving on is simply too hard for you infact not only could you not do that you had to get the thread put back up because you wanted to use it from your I'm back home coming party

Your so blinded by your need to feel important that you have lost touch with the reality that millions upon millions of pool players don't use systems
You have even gone to the extent to call methods systems to help support your argument
because CTE alone does not have but a couple pro's that use it , Stan has even gone to the extent of saying other pro's use it the just don't know it
I think I need bigger boots

Since the poll asked a question and it's been switched to a debate feel players representing the vast majority have as much right as you do to give thier reasons why they use them instead of CTE

1

 

[ENGLISH!]

Seriously? No one invited Lou. Why should we let anything go anyway? As long as we are on topic who cares if we like each other?

And for me, I don't care if you don't respect me for anything. CTE works and that's all there is to it. Everyone can hold their own beliefs but they can't avoid facts. Factually on the pool table CTE works and works like a champion. That's the bottom line here.

No knocker can prove that it doesn't. They don't even try to go at it visually and break down why they think it doesn't work.

Now you have Lou saying he knocks CTE because he "believes" that it will cripple a player's game for life, or "could conceivably" do so. REALLY?

This is a pool forum. Knocking people who just want to help others get better is just plain nitty.

John,

Butch Harmon has said, 'I may not be able to build a Championship Swing... but if I'm not very careful, I know I can ruin one.'.

Best Wishes.

 

[ENGLISH!]

NO. CTE does NOT REQUIRE COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF FEEL.

It requires none to extremely little feel to use the eyes to align the body to the center to edge line. No feel is required to use the eyes to find the second line and align to that. No feel is required to then come down into the shot from the aligned body position, which is offset to the shot line.

Any feel that is present is SO SMALL as to be practically nonexistent for a seasoned CTE user. Any adjusting is so slight that it's not even noticeable.

You all need to stop OR you need to get several cameras and go to Stan's house and film him from every angle and analyze the video in super slow motion and show the world where the "feel" is.

Oh you mean the FEEL is subconscious and you can't show what's happening in Stan's mind as he goes from approaching the table to down on the shot???? You can't see it, you can't measure it, you can't film it yet you INSIST that it is there. And you dare to call those of us who use this method EVERY DAY deluded?

John,

Your statements regarding 'FEEL' in CTE are only your opinions regarding 'Feel' & are not proven facts in any way.

Yet... you state them as pure fact. 'Feel' can be & perhaps usually is of a subconscious nature & hence one does not know when it is being employed. This is the issue, IMO, regarding the debate on total objectivity. Perhaps you should re-read Poolplaya's post & apply it to something other than CTE. That may give you a bit more of an 'objective' viewpoint.

It's 'rhetoric' that very often prompts the ongoing squabbles.

Best Wishes to ALL.

 

[philly]

The poll asks s question what do you use ,, not who what where when and how
But answering a simple question and moving on is simply too hard for you infact not only could you not do that you had to get the thread put back up because you wanted to use it from your I'm back home coming party

Your so blinded by your need to feel important that you have lost touch with the reality that millions upon millions of pool players don't use systems
You have even gone to the extent to call methods systems to help support your argument
because CTE alone does not have but a couple pro's that use it , Stan has even gone to the extent of saying other pro's use it the just don't know it
I think I need bigger boots

Since the poll asked a question and it's been switched to a debate feel players representing the vast majority have as much right as you do to give thier reasons why they use them instead of CTE

1

It's an aiming thread. Anything can happen in an aiming thread. If I ever click on an aiming thread again will someone just shoot me in the head?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

lol. Delusional as ever.

Hal Houle pushed his "3 Angles" fractional system for years online, claiming over and over that three cut angles was all you need to make every shot. Maybe he (eventually) realized how wack that is and came up with this "I'm really just pranking everybody on the Internet" story, maybe you did - but Stan adds a few dance steps to the same nonsense (making it even more nonsensical) and you're all aboard again.

In 5 years or so you'll be saying Stan was just goofing on us all. Who's really being pranked here?

lol

pj
chgo

LOL! At least we're both laughing and the guy who laughed the hardest was HAL at YOU and LOU. Not only did he twist your brains around back then, here your are 17 years later still posting and running around like a dog chasing it's tail as you waste all of your time and energy on something you know nothing about back then and now.

Glad to see you evolve into a life long nut case about Hal's work and now Stan's.
LMAO

Too bad PJ, Hal's 3 line fractions do work as stated. Not the way you always thought and presented it which was literally aiming at those 3 areas from center ball of the CB which limited the cut angles. Those weren't 3 CUT ANGLES! They were 3 VISUALS. I guess you also didn't know that Hal had about 20 DIFFERENT aiming systems revolving around the 3 VISUALS. He had some funny names for those systems, one of which was called Shishkebob and it was a "tip" or "ferrule" aiming system that uses ONLY the 3 LINE VISUALS WITH A PIVOT. He never brought that one up on RSB but I guarantee EVERY SHOT ANGLE from 1 degree to almost 90 degrees could be MADE with those 3 lines. Yeh, I know...from your limited perspective the immediate response is IMPOSSIBLE. But, once again you would be WRONG AND CLUELESS as you've ALWAYS BEEN. Hal loved it and I love it!! (your cluelessness, that is)

He twisted your know it all brain around because he never divulged that you could use the tip or ferrule of the cue, centers AND edges of the CB, as well as a pivot from an offset position to center as well as pivot from center to an offset.

LMAO!! You never got it and still don't get it. Mr. Brainiac is clueless after two decades and will go into your own grave one day thinking about Hal and the 3 lines.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, this is the second time I have had to warn you about baiting someone in a thread here in a very short period of time.

Considering the amount of crap that Stan has gotten in these threads, I don't consider his thoughts irrational.

I would consider one of you obsessive though.

Mike

Mike, if there was a first I haven't seen it.

No one here is obsessive, not Stan, not JB, not Lou. We are all passionate about the topic and the related issues that swirl around this particular aiming system. Which brings up the point: why isn't this thread "Do you use an aiming system or go by feel?" in the Aiming Forum?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Then why do they campaign so hard to convince people not to try CTE or other aiming systems?



Yet you cannot and will not PROVE that these methods will cripple someone. It's amazing that you go to such an extreme as to make the statement that you think a system tried could cripple a player's game for life. How crippled is Landon Shuffett's game? Do you want any part of that kid in any game?

No you don't because at the age of 21 he will ROB you in every pool game known. Including your beloved straight pool. His father brought him up immersed in CTE, Landon spent time at Hal's house learning Hal's methods.

You have flat out accused Stan Shuffett of being a con man who sells snake oil. Thing is that he wasn't selling anything but lessons UNTIL you guys knocked him so much he decided to make a DVD. Then you accused him of intentionally leaving information out of the DVD so as to make people have to buy lessons.

If the rules were applied you would have been banned many times for your ad hominem and negative attacks and harassment.



Bait and switch how? The poll topic is "Do you use an aiming system or go by feel?"

Those of us who use aiming systems are discussing it from the "uses a system" standpoint. You and several others have been on the attack. Perhaps you should consider that if you didn't get involved the thread would peter out fairly quickly as a bunch of aiming nerds talk shop.

But when YOUR premise is that aiming systems and ESPECIALLY CTE are snake oil then you just can't leave it alone can you?

You will say anything to try and save that one poor hapless player from "crippling his game for life" by trying out CTE as a way to aim. Anything so the poor guy doesn't get led down the wrong path.........

All the positive testimonials from players who did adopt aiming systems and reported improvement mean nothing to you, just deluded shills who have no self-awareness.

Try it one time just staying OUT of a thread like this, you, PJ, Satori, Ron Thaiger Swanson, English, etc... just stay out and watch the thread run it's course and go away once the questions have been answered.

I have never called Stan a snake oil salesman. If you're going to make that accusation: show me.

The part about potentially crippling a players game stems from the movement of the cue after a player is down in shooting position. Or even the air/body pivots, alignments that may or may not benefit an individual player. Watch the first DVD where Stan demonstrates the changing position of the V of his bridge hand. How on God’s good green Simonis covered Earth do you think that is good for all players?

In all probably the pivot is going to mess with cue delivery. Just ake a close look at the *huge* sideways movement of Stan's cue, hand, forearm, elbow, and bicep when he demonstrates for the use of BHE. None of that is good for a good consistent repeatable and accurate stroke that won’t break down. Sometimes there's pivot, sometimes not; sometimes the body turns, sometimes it does not; and bridge length and the proscribed amount of pivot is all over the place.

Certainly all that supports the case for potentially crippling a player's delivery.

Lou Figueroa

 

[ENGLISH!]

Watch this video in slow motion. Youtube has a setting in the player where you can slow it down to 1/4 speed. If you want to you can download the videos and then watch them in various other players at an even slower speed. If you have a Samsung phone (and probably any android phone) you can record in slow motion. So you can slow this video down on YT and then record the video on your phone in slomo and get super slow mo.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE show where the "feel" is happening here. The shooter looks at the balls and gets down on the exact shot line every time in ALL of his videos. How is this possible unless he has some kind of method that is guiding him? If all by feel, copious amounts as claimed by one guy above, it would seem uncanny that this guy would so consistently find the right shot line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht3ypwuxLw8

HERE - he shoots 15 shots WITHOUT A MISS -

WITH A CURTAIN IN THE WAY. Where is the feel?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlhJu94UhGg

Here he shoots 10 bank shots into the side with a curtain in the way. Please show where the feel is?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY0tp_UnS_g

John,

You & others just don't get it or it certainly seems that you all don't.

I've sold video surveillance systems. Sometimes video is not even admissible in a court of law. IT IS NOT GOD.

Video can NOT show things or the lack of things that are ABSTRACT in their nature. AND on the subjects of these 'conversations' the results of any subconscious input or 'feel' might only be a single millimeter & such is not discernible in these types of videos.

Tt seems that in the face of logical rational critical thinking that can not be sufficiently combated by the same means, that you & others are pulling at straws.

Best Wishes.

 

[lfigueroa]

If it is still there it will be on Ustream on the Sandcastle channel. I downloaded as much of it as I could and think I got it all and will be posting the whole match at some point.

Here you go. Nine hours of what not to do while playing one pocket.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/45041838

I have it all on a thumb drive. I was thinking of hiring someone to edit it down to a half hour highlight reel

Lou Figueroa

 

[ENGLISH!]

You can't "see the feel" in a video of any player, even a player who admits using feel and only feel to aim. Just what do you think you would see?

The fact is you can't make all pool shots from the extremely limited set of definitive shot angles that CTE provides. That is indisputable fact. And CTE users get all those in between shot angles by feel (experience), same as those who aren't using any system at all except feel to begin with.

If you don't agree, precisely explain all the CTE steps involved to get you to where you are exactly on the correct shot line for a 57 degree cut to the left where the cue ball is two feet away from the object ball and the object ball is five feet away from the pocket and you shoot it at lag speed. There is a "formula" if no feel is involved, and you would be able to give the formula/all the steps involved so precisely that everyone would clearly understand them, everyone who followed the steps would all be doing the exact same thing (because there is not enough vagueness wiggle room in the description for people to be able to do different things or use their feel), and everyone who followed the steps and actually tried it on the described shot would pocket that ball (assuming they stroke straight). If for some reason you feel you need to be able to see the shot to do it (you shouldn't have to), then use a tape measure and a protractor and actually set it up on a table so you can see it.

Now give me the steps for a 23 degree cut to the right, object ball six feet from the pocket, cue ball four feet from the object ball and hit at a speed that would send the cue ball up and down the table five times.

Everyone in the world can then take a protractor and a yard stick and set up those exact same shots and try it themselves using your very precise and understandable instructions that don't allow for any feel or leeway in doing things differently and see for themselves if it actually pockets those balls or not.

I predict one of two things. Instructions that are vague enough that it leaves room for anyone following them to be able to do things differently and be able to use their feel to adjust a bit to pocket the balls, or a whole bunch of people shooting those balls into rails. Actually my third prediction is most likely, which is you won't bother to even try because you know it is not a precise system that doesn't have lots of feel involved and therefore there is no precise formula or instructions that would work and you aren't going to prove me right by making up some and putting it on here and will instead come up with made up excuses that you can't since people see differently and this and that and the other.

I won't even ask you for the CTE formula if you have to add left or right english to either of the above shots because your side already (finally) agreed that if you are using english you have to adjust by feel which of course means that you aren't in any better position that if you were using only feel to begin with. And since the average person probably has english on 75% of their shots, then even by your side's own admissions they would see no benefit that 75% of the time.

<<<:thumbup2:>>>

 

[lfigueroa]

lol. Delusional as ever.

Hal Houle pushed his "3 Angles" fractional system for years online, claiming over and over that three cut angles was all you need to make every shot. Maybe he (eventually) realized how wack that is and came up with this "I'm really just pranking everybody on the Internet" story, maybe you did - but Stan adds a few dance steps to the same nonsense (making it even more nonsensical) and you're all aboard again.

In 5 years or so you'll be saying Stan was just goofing on us all. Who's really being pranked here?

lol

pj
chgo

Hal called me at home one day out of the blue and we talked for a while. He was very nice and sounded totally sincere. Now the cover story is that we were all being punked as a cover story for some pretty crazy systems.

Lou Figueroa

 

[stan shuffett]

I have never called Stan a snake oil salesman. If you're going to make that accusation: show me.

The part about potentially crippling a players game stems from the movement of the cue after a player is down in shooting position. Or even the air/body pivots, alignments that may or may not benefit an individual player. Watch the first DVD where Stan demonstrates the changing position of the V of his bridge hand. How on God’s good green Simonis covered Earth do you think that is good for all players?

In all probably the pivot is going to mess with cue delivery. Just ake a close look at the *huge* sideways movement of Stan's cue, hand, forearm, elbow, and bicep when he demonstrates for the use of BHE. None of that is good for a good consistent repeatable and accurate stroke that won’t break down. Sometimes there's pivot, sometimes not; sometimes the body turns, sometimes it does not; and bridge length and the proscribed amount of pivot is all over the place.

Certainly all that supports the case for potentially crippling a player's delivery.

Lou Figueroa

I am willing to bet you a few hundred that you angle your cue when are playing. A camera can be set up in your room and you simply play some 14.1 for 60 maybe 90 minutes.

If you do not want to bet. I will pay you $100 to film you for 90 minutes. There is no doubt in my mind that you angle your cue.......I have seen you do it. It is the nature of our game. It is the nature of CTE.

I will be in your area tomorrow.

Stan

 

[ENGLISH!]

The poll asks s question what do you use ,, not who what where when and how
But answering a simple question and moving on is simply too hard for you infact not only could you not do that you had to get the thread put back up because you wanted to use it from your I'm back home coming party

Your so blinded by your need to feel important that you have lost touch with the reality that millions upon millions of pool players don't use systems
You have even gone to the extent to call methods systems to help support your argument
because CTE alone does not have but a couple pro's that use it , Stan has even gone to the extent of saying other pro's use it the just don't know it
I think I need bigger boots

Since the poll asked a question and it's been switched to a debate feel players representing the vast majority have as much right as you do to give thier reasons why they use them instead of CTE

1

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

Sometimes I think hip boots are not enough.

Sometimes waders are needed & then sometimes it's those full virus protection outfits that would seem appropriate.

Best 2 Ya.

 

[KRJ]

where are all the FOLKS who paid their hard earn money but HATED the system or advised they saw no improvement. Why are all the naysayers the folks who never bought a DVD, or a lesson, and they are the ones that might not need CTE because they have a distinct ability to "see" the shot, where as many folks will never develop that instinct?

Just curious, if this system cannot possibly work, why is the internet NOT full of folks attacking CTE versus just the same crowd over and over and over ?

Seems kinda weird, no ?

PS: And it appears just a little over 50% of pool players go by "feel". Hmmmm, so there are two very distinct players, and if one works for you, great, if they other works for you, even better.

This is just like the Maple vs. LD shafts, 2 different shafts, and neither of them is wrong. But you will NEVER catch someone who uses an LD shaft tearing apart those who use Maple? Can't really say that for some of the Maple users? Which again, just seems a little weird.

 

[stan shuffett]

3 angel system

Anyone of the major principals that want to take the position that Hal's 3 angle system is nonsense can debate me specifically on that subject at a table in an Indy pool room.
Here is the deal.

I will put up a $1000. I will explain the foundation of the system and why it is valid.
Then you explain why it is nonsense.

The crowd votes on who gets my $1000.

I can schedule this at book release time.

Stan Shuffett

 

[BasementDweller]

Angling the cue...

CTE encourages you to angle your cue this way and that.

That's all I ever needed to know about the system to reject it.

Of course many of us "angle our cues". The difference is -- Stan's system encourages this angling while many of us strive to eliminate it.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hal called me at home one day out of the blue and we talked for a while. He was very nice and sounded totally sincere. Now the cover story is that we were all being punked as a cover story for some pretty crazy systems.

Lou Figueroa

Lou,

I'll just say this.

IF, IF, IF Please note the word IF, IF Mr. Houle did put out what he knew to be false info or theory, even to a single individual, then the man is not one to be honored in any way.

The CTE proponents can't have it both ways as they so often seem to want it.

If he punked anyone then maybe he punked everyone & they just don't know it.

Best Wishes.

PS to EVERYONE: Please note the word IF.

 

[stan shuffett]

Angling the cue...

CTE encourages you to angle your cue this way and that.

That's all I ever needed to know about the system to reject it.

Of course many of us "angle our cues". The difference is -- Stan's system encourages this angling while many of us strive to eliminate this.

Your cue angling is likely detrimental to your alignment particularly if you are placing your vision behind CCB. ( But cue angling can be done conventionally.......but not even close to the effectiveness as with using CTE.)

Cue angling is natural and easy when a player uses their eyes correctly for CTE.

Apples and oranges,

Stan Shuffett

 

[ENGLISH!]

where are all the FOLKS who paid their hard earn money but HATED the system or advised they saw no improvement. Why are all the naysayers the folks who never bought a DVD, or a lesson, and they are the ones that might not need CTE because they have a distinct ability to "see" the shot, where as many folks will never develop that instinct?

Just curious, if this system cannot possibly work, why is the internet NOT full of folks attacking CTE versus just the same crowd over and over and over ?

Seems kinda weird, no ?

PS: And it appears just a little over 50% of pool players go by "feel". Hmmmm, so there are two very distinct players, and if one works for you, great, if they other works for you, even better.

This is just like the Maple vs. LD shafts, 2 different shafts, and neither of them is wrong. But you will NEVER catch someone who uses an LD shaft tearing apart those who use Maple? Can't really say that for some of the Maple users? Which again, just seems a little weird.

RJ,

Saying something does not work for the reason that is asserted that it works is not saying that it does not work.

Well, Like Bill Clinton once said, 'That depends on what the definition of IT is.'. If IT is not working for the reason that is asserted that IT does, is IT really IT? :wink:

Best Wishes.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Hal called me at home one day out of the blue and we talked for a while. He was very nice and sounded totally sincere. Now the cover story is that we were all being punked as a cover story for some pretty crazy systems.

Lou Figueroa

Hal listed HIS phone number on the threads to BE CALLED if anyone was interested.
He didn't just call you out of the blue at home since there was no way he could get phone numbers of members nor would he do it on his own without a phone call to him. More bullsh*t from Lou spinning and lying.

Hal never hated anybody and laughed at all the posts by you and PJ with no defensiveness toward his systems. He thought both of you were clueless clowns who knew it all but really knew nothing and you both prove you still don't.
LOL from Hal and me.