Do you use an aiming system or go by feel?

[336Robin]

So true

So true. Any method of aiming has to start with the fact that the cueball must contact the object ball opposite the pocket. This is a physical fact and cannot be derived from pure geometry. With that fact in hand, you can develop various derivative statements using geometry, but the salient things you have to work with are precious few, namely, the centers and edges of the balls. Using them to arrive at the ghostball position involves some combination of two things: visualization and feel, the latter being memorization from experience.

In principle, if you could perfectly visualize the cueball opposite the objectball's direction at contact (perspective/foreshortening was not a problem) you would not need any feel. From day one, no shot would be a mystery. Alas, few of us have that skill from the get go and must acquire it through trial and error. We have to memorize and then rely on those memories.

The big problem some of us have with CTE is the denial of that process. The correct aim line relative to the reference lines (to A,B,C) varies continuously, not only with cut angle, but with the distance between the balls. To use them to arrive at the aim line, whether you perceive them differently from shot to shot, or do something different with the same perception, obviously involves subjective processes and memorization. Given that you not only have to deal with the variable of cut angle, but CB-OB separation as well, it's no small amount of memorization at that. It suggests that CTE users, despite fervent claims to the contrary, simply revert to their pre-CTE methods at the moment of truth.

Maybe part of the disagreements have to do with the meanings of terms like "feel" and "required adjustments/tweeks to the system." The CTE advocates might be picturing a certain amount of fidgeting and groping for the shot line, while this isn't necessarily what the skeptics mean by them.

Jim

What you say is a lot of truth. We could say anything we want concerning aiming but until you get down to do it on the table its only theory. My point is why not make it as simple as possible and allow a person to develop their own feel. As far as objectivity goes just because its a feel players objectivity we are talking about that in no way means its doesn't exist. There are plenty of shots you know you can make with Centerball but you have to juice them up with English and that's where the complication of allowances come in. Unless you have a plan to deal with that, and that is feel then what do you have?.

 

[JB Cases]

Very much of what you say here is totally incorrect.

I'll wait & see if PJ explains your errors & if not I'll give it a shot later on.

But, you've just shown, like I have been saying all along, that their has been misuse of words, especially objective & objectivity & when one misuses words it is usually from a misunderstanding.

Best Wishes.

PS One can not put it in any real terms of any percentage. It's either this is or this is not. But at least we may be heading in a good direction, at least where you are concerned.

No it is important. Is CTE more or less objectve than feel?

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[JB Cases]

Never mind, John. Sorry.

I just think you will take it too wrong no matter how I worded it.

I'm heading out to buy my only Grandchild His 2 year old Birthday Presents. I'm such a horrid human being.

Best Wishes.

Everyone has the capacity to be nice or horrible. Making another person's life miserable for something insignificant isn't nice at all.

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[JB Cases]

Yet you want to dictate how & when this discussion goes where it goes.

Peachy.

Not at all. Actually I would like to find consensus that does not include you and others saying that those of us who successfully use CTE or other methods are deluded, part of a cult, religious nuts etc....



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[JB Cases]

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=307955&highlight=rodney

John, I thought all of your old posts were deleted. They were not .
You said you don't know if Rodney ever used CTE .
That thread contradicts with that .

Can't open it.

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[JB Cases]

What you say is a lot of truth. We could say anything we want concerning aiming but until you get down to do it on the table its only theory. My point is why not make it as simple as possible and allow a person to develop their own feel. As far as objectivity goes just because its a feel players objectivity we are talking about that in no way means its doesn't exist. There are plenty of shots you know you can make with Centerball but you have to juice them up with English and that's where the complication of allowances come in. Unless you have a plan to deal with that, and that is feel then what do you have?.

What you have if you use CTE for example is a dead nuts perfect shot line to adjust from if needed. So IF using side spin means using feel then at least for me using CTE takes the feel of finding the center ball shot line out of it.

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[JoeyInCali]

Can't open it.

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Rodeny Morris Beats the 13 ball Ghost usng CTE
Race to Ten.

"Just beat the 13 ball ghost ten ahead in two hours flat." - Rodney Morris

Here Rodney is explaining the Ghost Ball in response to a fan's question in the same thread on FB

Rodney Morris speaking to Naldo V Troncoso, "the ghost ball is the imaginary ball I envied to envision for my point of contact. I put a ball directly behind the object ball going straight into the pocket I'm shooting for, then I imagine the cue ball taking the place of that ghost ball, or imaginary ball that I'm envisioning. But I don't use that anymore. I was shown a better way to aim. That's why I'm hitting em a lot better. Stevie Moore showed me a little about CTE Pro1. Center to Edge got me started in the right direction, and I'm practicing that for awhile now. Pretty neat"

Posted 02-15-2013

 

[JB Cases]

John,

Please see my reply to your earlier post & please understand that we are not in real time here.

Did you not 'scold' Dan for saying what you can & can't do when you want to do so. You said that you would do something & did not do it. That's not saying that you won't if & when you get around to it, but like Dan said you've spent much time here typing when you could have done what you said you were going to do for him.

Anyway, I may as well say it now. One can NOT put any percentage numbers on it. One can only indicate that this aspect is & this aspect is not. No percentage can realistically be put on it other than some arbitrary guess.

Best Wishes.

You can't put numbers on it? Yet accuracy in description is so important to you that you stalk Stan and anyone else relentlessly if they don't use the exact language you want. I mean why not be precise with your language when knocking it?

Don't you think the chances nsumer deserves this information?

I do. Dear consumer, as a player it is my personal experience the CTE is 99% objective and 1% subjective. Thus I have observed that 99% of the time I get to the correct shot line through objective use of the Center to Edge method of aiming.



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[JB Cases]

Posted 02-15-2013

Thanks. Yes based on Rodney's statement you posted it would be fair to conclude that he was either using CTE or some part of it. The headline I used should have noted that but it is likely not inaccurate.

I think Rodney was clear. Stevie Moore showed me CTE, I am now playing great.

Do you disagree with the content?

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[336Robin]

Absolutely

What you have if you use CTE for example is a dead nuts perfect shot line to adjust from if needed. So IF using side spin means using feel then at least for me using CTE takes the feel of finding the center ball shot line out of it.

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If that is what works for you for finding that shot line then it just works and there really isn't any debate need be about it. Its simple you say it works for you. I believe you. My point is that feel players can and do attain the same objectivity of center ball shots through trial and error. I'm sure that when one is told how to perform his protocol for certain shots with CTE that misses are made just as they are with feel. So in the end there are a lot of similarities in the two methods. You have your list of directives as a reference guide, and feel players have their memory pictures as to what works under certain conditions. As you mentioned in previous posts there were many shots you weren't getting using the feel method and CTE brought you into those. I would say there are a good many people that feel for ways to reason out a shot naturally. Some find those ways and some don't. My point is there are ways to teach feel just as you are a strong proponent of CTE. Feel is very deep in that direction as CTE is deep in why it works. For all of us we get to that part and we have to learn to deal with feel. It is not going to disappear for either side of the aiming ball making argument. Therefore the skill in pool is making the balls path bend to your will.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Thanks. Yes based on Rodney's statement you posted it would be fair to conclude that he was either using CTE or some part of it. The headline I used should have noted that but it is likely not inaccurate.

I think Rodney was clear. Stevie Moore showed me CTE, I am now playing great.

Do you disagree with the content?

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With CTE, the contact point on the ob shouldn't be a factor .
I've seen him bend over and look at the contact point .
Do I think he's using CTE now? Not really as he shoots really fast and I don't see any pivot. And from the video shown where he teaches GB, it seemed to me he does not like adjusting when he is down .
I could be wrong . He could still be using CTE.
You know him, you can always PM him.

 

[JB Cases]

If that is what works for you for finding that shot line then it just works and there really isn't any debate need be about it. Its simple you say it works for you. I believe you. My point is that feel players can and do attain the same objectivity of center ball shots through trial and error. I'm sure that when one is told how to perform his protocol for certain shots with CTE that misses are made just as they are with feel. So in the end there are a lot of similarities in the two methods. You have your list of directives as a reference guide, and feel players have their memory pictures as to what works under certain conditions. As you mentioned in previous posts there were many shots you weren't getting using the feel method and CTE brought you into those. I would say there are a good many people that feel for ways to reason out a shot naturally. Some find those ways and some don't. My point is there are ways to teach feel just as you are a strong proponent of CTE. Feel is very deep in that direction as CTE is deep in why it works. For all of us we get to that part and we have to learn to deal with feel. It is not going to disappear for either side of the aiming ball making argument. Therefore the skill in pool is making the balls path bend to your will.

No doubt that people can get very good on pure feel. Not sure that you can teach feel though.

I would dearly love to see a pure feel person like Lou and a system guy like Stan take intermediate players and benchmark them with a BU test on day 1 and then test them both on day 30 to see which one has improved more.

I would guess, and I would bet, that the player under Stan will have the higher score on day 30.

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[JB Cases]

With CTE, the contact point on the ob shouldn't be a factor .
I've seen him bend over and look at the contact point .
Do I think he's using CTE now? Not really as he shoots really fast and I don't see any pivot. And from the video shown where he teaches GB, it seemed to me he does not like adjusting when he is down .
I could be wrong . He could still be using CTE.
You know him, you can always PM him.

I don't if he does now. For all we know he could be using it in part or in whole or not at all. Why does it matter?

If he said he does will you change your mind and stop trying to stop readers from trying CTE?

I mean you don't give any credit to the fact that other pros openly use CTE so why does it matter if Rodney does or not. He made a clear statement that is pertinent to the discussion. At that time he was perfectly clear that because of what Stevie Moore showed him about CTE he was hitting them great. Nothing ambiguous about that.

Stevie Moore, Landon Shuffet, Phil Burford are three pros who use CTE openly.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I don't if he does now. For all we know he could be using it in part or in whole or not at all. Why does it matter?

If he said he does will you change your mind and stop trying to stop readers from trying CTE?

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I'm not stopping anyone from trying CTE. The dvd is cheap. A friend of mine has it . And Stan's book will be cheap too.
I've bought several aiming books/devices myself.
From Marvin Chen to CTE ( Marvin at HT sold it to me ) , to lessons with Al Romero and different templates .


Are you going to prevent the truth from coming out if Rodney says he went back overlapping or back of the OB ghost ball is what he is using again ?

Why does it matter ? If Rodney was playing his best using CTE, I don't see why he'd abandon it .

 

[336Robin]

No doubt that people can get very good on pure feel. Not sure that you can teach feel though.

Absolutely feel can be taught just as Cte is taught only in previous year no one has described the process or outlined ways to do it.


I would dearly love to see a pure feel person like Lou and a system guy like Stan take intermediate players and benchmark them with a BU test on day 1 and then test them both on day 30 to see which one has improved more.

When you have standardized shot making test I think it would be a toss up as to how it would turn out and prove little in my opinion. What I think would matter is the ability to pocket and spin the rock to a certain degree or point in order to pass the test. Since center ball is not the only manipulation made when playing, true playing conditions would need to be reproduced. The score on the exam I have never taken the BU exam.

I would guess, and I would bet, that the player under Stan will have the higher score on day 30.

I would say the more experienced player will score the best regardless. Given the fact that many players don't know how they do what they do I would say picking someone from that scenario would ensure that whoever was under an experienced teacher would certainly have quite an edge.

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Im not sure how the results would be measured but having a random feel player as and instructor would be no match for a experienced instructor not to mention many students are very subjective in how they receive information so you could end up with a real dud of a student very easily. If people are not ready to receive information they wont get it if you pay them.

 

[Johnnyt]

Feel is really the wrong word IMO. It's trial and error and memory. Also "Feel" is free not $50, $100, or $200. Some only need to hit a few 1000 balls to get in the pocket 95% of the time and some need to hit many more.

My advice to players that have hit a lot of balls and are still not happy with their pocketing % is to learn better CB control and think at least three balls ahead. Just practice to be the best you can be...not a top pro. There are about 50 top players in the world and millions that will never get there. Johnnyt

 

[JB Cases]

I'm not stopping anyone from trying CTE. The dvd is cheap. A friend of mine has it . And Stan's book will be cheap too.
I've bought several aiming books/devices myself.
From Marvin Chen to CTE ( Marvin at HT sold it to me ) , to lessons with Al Romero and different templates .


Are you going to prevent the truth from coming out if Rodney says he went back overlapping or back of the OB ghost ball is what he is using again ?

Why does it matter ? If Rodney was playing his best using CTE, I don't see why he'd abandon it .

Then why do you speak against it so much on here?

Prevent truth? Why would I do that? I don't care what Rodney does. I know what he told me when he worked for Fury cues.

I know what he said on FB a few years ago.

People can use whatever tools serve them best. Many here, you included seem to be dead set against CTE and your posts seem to be telling readers not to bother trying it.

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[JB Cases]

Feel is really the wrong word IMO. It's trial and error and memory. Also "Feel" is free not $50, $100, or $200. Some only need to hit a few 1000 balls to get in the pocket 95% of the time and some need to hit many more.

My advice to players that have hit a lot of balls and are still not happy with their pocketing % is to learn better CB control and think at least three balls ahead. Just practice to be the best you can be...not a top pro. There are about 50 top players in the world and millions that will never get there. Johnnyt

Been there and done that. Aiming systems made me a better player as they have done for many others here.

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[JB Cases]

Im not sure how the results would be measured but having a random feel player as and instructor would be no match for a experienced instructor not to mention many students are very subjective in how they receive information so you could end up with a real dud of a student very easily. If people are not ready to receive information they wont get it if you pay them.

Not a random feel player, 100 ball runner Lou Figueroa.

Lou has written many posts about his opinion on what a player should do to get better. Thus with a month any player under him should improve.

By how much is the question. And the measure will be a pool test developed by Dr. Dave.

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[Johnnyt]

Been there and done that. Aiming systems made me a better player as they have done for many others here.

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Geeez, how bad were you before learning CTE? Johnnyt