Do you use an aiming system or go by feel?

[cookie man]

See that's a BIG part of the problem on the CTE side of it all, exaggeration.

Hey, that's your words

 

[cookie man]

Anyone else reckon the cookie man is a FANTASTIC player?

Probably good enough to handle the likes of you, but then again we will never know will we.

 

[JB Cases]

Having your life threatened before a match would do that

I want to be clear that my life wasn't threatened although I was threatened by a person holding a pool ball who claimed he intended to use it.

But it was my fault for engaging this person at all. Given the prior animosity between us I should have not spoken to him at all and thus made sure to avoid any possibility of any confrontation. I certainly did not expect it to go the way it did but I should not have put myself in that situation.

I am certainly not immune from making stupid decisions at the wrong time. That one will forever be a classic brain fart in my life.

 

[Dan White]

It was not me being referenced.

As to Rick's question whatever it actually is..........

The only thing I can discern is that Rick has an issue with something he made up. Stan Shuffett has never said that CTE is "totally" objective.

So harping on this red herring is not productive. In my opinion your video analysis, which may or may not be correct, IS productive because it takes the demonstration evidence provided and attempts to break down the process objectively and analytically in a visual mode that everyone can see. Thus we can start to discuss the finer points of what has been offered.

We all know that a shooter can be on the WRONG shot line and throw the cueball into the right line or "gear" (throw) the object ball into the right pocket line.

Terms:

Shot Line - the line the cue ball must travel to contact the object ball in the right position to pocket the object ball.

Pocket line - the line the object ball MUST travel to go into the pocket.

So I can agree that IF you catch a player swooping or using some kind of body english then it is an indicator that there is some innate knowledge by the shooter that the shot line they are on is not correct. By the same token being on a perfectly correct shot line and using body english can often result in the shot being missed.

I submit that it is perfectly possible to use CTE and still be slightly off the shot line. The reasons for this are incorrectly choosing the Edge to Aimpoint+Sweep, second guessing the system, moving your feet, and even incorrect pivot. All things that can effect the outcome which is to land on the right shot line.

BUT

I submit that the vast majority of the time the method leads to the right shot line and the shooter can stroke perfectly straight with no body english and make the ball head perfectly towards the pocket center or very close to it. Assuming the shooter has a consistently straight stroke that is.

I would suggest that you do the same slow motion analysis on other videos and see if this bears out. I am going to predict that 99% of Gerry William's shots for example are performed with a straight follow through. I will say the same for Landon and Stan as well if you analyze the videos of them running racks as well as the demonstration shots they have done.

Thanks for the comments. Clearly, Stan uses the idea that CTE is an objective method of sighting shots in both his website, and pretty emphatically, in some of his videos. Does he say that CTE is completely objective with no hint of subjectivity at all required? I don't know but he puts it on his website that it is the most objective system known. The level of objectivity that he claims isn't really my main interest anyway.

I'm not so sure everyone is as enthusiastic of my slo mo video as you are, but I'm glad to see you take interest in getting to the bottom of things you don't yet have answers for.

I'll do some more videos soon, but I've looked at other footage and you may be surprised at what you see.

 

[cookie man]

I want to be clear that my life wasn't threatened although I was threatened by a person holding a pool ball who claimed he intended to use it.

But it was my fault for engaging this person at all. Given the prior animosity between us I should have not spoken to him at all and thus made sure to avoid any possibility of any confrontation. I certainly did not expect it to go the way it did but I should not have put myself in that situation.

I am certainly not immune from making stupid decisions at the wrong time. That one will forever be a classic brain fart in my life.

Yea but i know it's been a long running battle with you guys. i remember a long time ago the ranting and raving of him at SBE.

 

[Dan White]

For example any one who wants to can duplicate Dan White's analysis with better software and see if they come up with the same conclusion. The FACT that Dan spent some time to do it is fantastic whether he is ultimately right or wrong.

If I didn't know anything about Stan and his CTE system and I was just asked to analyze some guy's stroke, I'd conclude that his subconscious is causing him to redirect his cue with outside english in order to compensate for something that looks wrong to his subconscious. In other words, he's hitting it fat and so his subconscious redirects his cue just before the forward stroke.

What do you think the video shows as far as the stroke and how it relates to CTE?

 

[Dan White]

Route Sales / Business owner.

Cookie route, I assume? You're not Famous Amos, are you?

 

[Dan White]

This will likely require the expertise of a specialist in vision.............Ophthalmologist/Optometrist/Neurologist. Although I'm a liscenced healthcare provider (Family Practice), this kind of stuff is way over my head. Perhaps there's an Eye MD out there somewhere that plays pool and would want to study/tackle this question.

Or hypnotist or maybe magician! :smile: I've tried the method and admittedly I'm new with it, but I just don't see any real tricks of perception. Like Stan said, your visuals lock you into one place and only one place. But, I'm willing to still keep an open mind and hope that someone is able to answer these questions in an understandable way.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hey, that's your words

No. You exaggerated & said tens of thousands.

It's what a few of you guys do... continually.

 

[Neil]

I would say the one farthest to the left in the video is the one that comes closest to going in the corner pocket if you line up ETA/CTE and then do a half tip pivot from the left side. In other words, the sharpest cut angle. I tried shooting each shot, and of course the ETA/CTE line was the same in each case for me. Everybody says there is only one place you can stand and still perceive that ETA/CTE line (everyone except Stan). So the ball to the far right ended up hitting somewhere around the side pocket by the time I got the visual and then did a pivot from the left, assuming I am following Stan's directions correctly.

If you really believe that part in red, you totally missed everything I have said to you. Rick laughed at it, you dismissed it, and yet both of you are still saying the same old things.

Really makes one wonder just how much you really are trying to understand it. And how much you are just trying to say it doesn't work.

 

[JB Cases]

If I didn't know anything about Stan and his CTE system and I was just asked to analyze some guy's stroke, I'd conclude that his subconscious is causing him to redirect his cue with outside english in order to compensate for something that looks wrong to his subconscious. In other words, he's hitting it fat and so his subconscious redirects his cue just before the forward stroke.

What do you think the video shows as far as the stroke and how it relates to CTE?

I think that it's hard to make a conclusion based on one shot. I used to have a terrible body-english habit and it's still hard to control.

Earlier in the thread Colin Colenso showed that with a dead perfect shot line it is still possible to make the shot with a swooping cue. Colin's observation and demonstration is that the stroke doesn't matter as much as people think when the shot line is correct.

So it's impossible to say that the shot line Stan found wasn't actually correct and that the shot could not have been made with a dead straight stroke.

So the conclusion COULD BE that Stan geared the shot in subconsciously or it could be that Stan deliberately used a little outside spin as many of us were taught to do in the old days out of old habits. I'd like to see the video repeated on Stan's part with a dead straight stroke to verify to himself and the viewers whether the shot line is correct or not.

I also don't know until I go to the table and set this up whether it was a true 30 degree shot or not. Even if it wasn't Stan's initial premise is still correct that it doesn't matter because the CTE steps provide the shot line to be used.

I think that you can't use this small sample size to make a general determination that the subconscious fills in the claimed gaps. So my take on it is that while you found a stroke anomaly that is not typical of Stan's form the reason for it is not conclusive when the entire body of Stan's demonstrations with no stroke issues is taken into account.

Here is a video of me using CTE to make three shots proposed by Dr. Dave years ago. As you can see I did not steer any of these shots. I merely lined up using CTE as prescribed and shot them from whatever line the system directed me to. This was a tight 4.25" table. I spent about 30 minutes and usually made two and rattled one in each attempt. This video is best viewed slowed down to 1/4 speed.

https://youtu.be/x8G7-xpyKlk?list=PLSKV5CK_fziXC5F0oQJJ-yV7pAtT334y9

 

[JB Cases]

Thanks for the comments. Clearly, Stan uses the idea that CTE is an objective method of sighting shots in both his website, and pretty emphatically, in some of his videos. Does he say that CTE is completely objective with no hint of subjectivity at all required? I don't know but he puts it on his website that it is the most objective system known. The level of objectivity that he claims isn't really my main interest anyway.

I'm not so sure everyone is as enthusiastic of my slo mo video as you are, but I'm glad to see you take interest in getting to the bottom of things you don't yet have answers for.

I'll do some more videos soon, but I've looked at other footage and you may be surprised at what you see.

Dan, I'd rather have one of you doing video analysis than 100 PJ/Satori/Rick/AnonTrolls regurgitating the same old rhetoric about how it can't possibly work. The only thing I would caution though is to use the high resolution choice 1080P and full screen or as big as possible to do the overlay analysis to be sure that when you put a line where center ball is supposed to be that it's actually at centerball. Laying a line over a tiny ball on screen can actually end up intimating something that isn't really there.

When I do my videos I hope for someone to come along and analyze them so that I can see if their points have merit and force me to go back to the table OR if their points can be adequately defended against reasonably.

 

[Dan White]

If you really believe that part in red, you totally missed everything I have said to you. Rick laughed at it, you dismissed it, and yet both of you are still saying the same old things.

Really makes one wonder just how much you really are trying to understand it. And how much you are just trying to say it doesn't work.

I'm trying very hard to get it, Neil. I have no incentive to knock this system for no reason. I'm not selling anything. Frankly I've got better things to do that try to discredit a system that works great.

OK, then let's try this again: In the 5 ball video, Stan is able to get the ETA visual on all 5 shots. I said that the ETA visual will put you in the exact same spot each time. Here is your explanation of how to do it correctly:

What one needs to do is initially align themselves to the rough position they need to be in to make the shot where they want to. A step that everyone needs to do on any shot not matter how they aim it.

Once in that spot, you then look for your visuals. The visuals will fine tune that initial spot to the shot line with the pivot or sweep.

If one stands in the same approach to the second shot as in the first shot, he will end up banking the ball to the corner, not cutting it in. The initial perception is the key. The visuals fine tune with the pivot to the exact line needed.

I have to ask you the same question that I and others are asked: Have you actually tried this? If I stand in the approximate position to make the ball, it is impossible for me to get an ETA/CTE visual on the first of the five shots from that standing position. Where am I going wrong here?

 

[Dan White]

Dan, I'd rather have one of you doing video analysis than 100 PJ/Satori/Rick/AnonTrolls regurgitating the same old rhetoric about how it can't possibly work. The only thing I would caution though is to use the high resolution choice 1080P and full screen or as big as possible to do the overlay analysis to be sure that when you put a line where center ball is supposed to be that it's actually at centerball. Laying a line over a tiny ball on screen can actually end up intimating something that isn't really there.

When I do my videos I hope for someone to come along and analyze them so that I can see if their points have merit and force me to go back to the table OR if their points can be adequately defended against reasonably.

I'll do more but it'll be a couple of days. A few things, though:

- I can't control the resolution of the video. It is whatever the original person recorded it at. Of course I will try to use the highest resolution possible, but my recollection is that Youtube goes to the highest one available automatically.

- Stan's swoop is not a one-time anomaly.

- I'd be happy to look at your stroke in slo mo. However, the best videos are done with a stroke straight into the camera.

 

[Dan White]

Funny, video can't prove anything yet you and other knockers were so so so grateful to Dan for his video.

Anyway, thanks for the consideration. All 4 nanoseconds of it.

You can understand the difference, though, no? If a guy on a video say he's using method XYZ to pocket the ball and then the ball goes in he can just say, "See, it worked great!" Nobody can verify that. On the other hand, if we have a straight in shot from a guy who says he's stroking straight down the shot line, and then the video shows he isn't doing that, then maybe we can learn something.

Not all videos are created equal!

 

[Neil]

I'm trying very hard to get it, Neil. I have no incentive to knock this system for no reason. I'm not selling anything. Frankly I've got better things to do that try to discredit a system that works great.

OK, then let's try this again: In the 5 ball video, Stan is able to get the ETA visual on all 5 shots. I said that the ETA visual will put you in the exact same spot each time. Here is your explanation of how to do it correctly:

What one needs to do is initially align themselves to the rough position they need to be in to make the shot where they want to. A step that everyone needs to do on any shot not matter how they aim it.

Once in that spot, you then look for your visuals. The visuals will fine tune that initial spot to the shot line with the pivot or sweep.

If one stands in the same approach to the second shot as in the first shot, he will end up banking the ball to the corner, not cutting it in. The initial perception is the key. The visuals fine tune with the pivot to the exact line needed.

I have to ask you the same question that I and others are asked: Have you actually tried this? If I stand in the approximate position to make the ball, it is impossible for me to get an ETA/CTE visual on the first of the five shots from that standing position. Where am I going wrong here?

I have no problem doing it, not sure why you are. One possibility might be that you are standing too straight on the shot. Have you watched Stan's video where he talks about where to stand to sight the shot? You don't stand straight on the shot, but angled a little. (not sure just which video it is off hand, maybe someone else can link it)

 

[JB Cases]

I'll do more but it'll be a couple of days. A few things, though:

- I can't control the resolution of the video. It is whatever the original person recorded it at. Of course I will try to use the highest resolution possible, but my recollection is that Youtube goes to the highest one available automatically.

- Stan's swoop is not a one-time anomaly.

- I'd be happy to look at your stroke in slo mo. However, the best videos are done with a stroke straight into the camera.

YouTube defaults to a lower resolution for bandwidth reasons. If a higher resolution is available you can choose it from the options in the lower right corner. I think most of Stan's videos are available in 1080p.

I didn't say it's a one time anomaly, but it is unusual based on my observations of his stroke in slow motion. I think that one needs to balance the amount of shots done with a straight stroke (assuming that a straight stroke means no gearing) vs. the amount taken with any sort of "swoop" or not-straight stroke.

My stroke is horrible. Even when I really try hard to focus on keeping it straight it's horrible. I am super lazy and won't do the 2000 shots a day for a month to drill it into my body and mind to be laser straight at all times.

That said, I also think as colin does that it's not ALWAYS a detriment to not have a straight stroke. It really depends on what happens at contact with the cue ball. One can throw the cue ball OFF a dead perfect shot line and miss or one can also swoop on a dead perfect shot and still make the ball. But obviously not swooping is better unless one intends to for the reason of throwing the object ball or making the cueball do something not possible with a straight stroke.

As players we learn what those things are and when to use particular methods. I digress though.

IF the exercise is to use CTE to find a shot line which can then be used to make the ball with a perfectly straight stroke THEN I agree that there is no good reason to do anything but stroke straight or explain WHY the stroke is off center.

 

[Dan White]

I have no problem doing it, not sure why you are. One possibility might be that you are standing too straight on the shot. Have you watched Stan's video where he talks about where to stand to sight the shot? You don't stand straight on the shot, but angled a little. (not sure just which video it is off hand, maybe someone else can link it)

Yes, that is the 5 ball perception video I was talking about, video 2 in the series I believe. It doesn't seem to matter what my head orientation is. If I get into the approximate correct spot as you recommend, there is nothing I can do to get the ETA/CTE visual unless that visual happens to be close to the correct shot line.

It sure would be helpful if Stan would answer honest questions as I've done repeatedly instead of only replying to perceived slights!

Sometimes if a thick student doesn't understand you have to try a different method. Can you think of another way of explaining this so that I can reproduce it?

Thanks for your attention.

 

[JoeyA]

Lou, of course you called Stan a snake oil salesman. Why lie about that?

Did you use his name when you refer to snake oil salesman? Or did you mention that people who teach CTE are snake oil salesman? Maybe you did and maybe you didn't REGARDLESS, we all know who and what you meant.

You obviously need to be MUZZLED AGAIN.

JoeyA

I have never called Stan a snake oil salesman. If you're going to make that accusation: show me.

The part about potentially crippling a players game stems from the movement of the cue after a player is down in shooting position. Or even the air/body pivots, alignments that may or may not benefit an individual player. Watch the first DVD where Stan demonstrates the changing position of the V of his bridge hand. How on God’s good green Simonis covered Earth do you think that is good for all players?

In all probably the pivot is going to mess with cue delivery. Just ake a close look at the *huge* sideways movement of Stan's cue, hand, forearm, elbow, and bicep when he demonstrates for the use of BHE. None of that is good for a good consistent repeatable and accurate stroke that won’t break down. Sometimes there's pivot, sometimes not; sometimes the body turns, sometimes it does not; and bridge length and the proscribed amount of pivot is all over the place.

Certainly all that supports the case for potentially crippling a player's delivery.

Lou Figueroa

 

[ENGLISH!]

Dan, I'd rather have one of you doing video analysis than 100 PJ/Satori/Rick/AnonTrolls regurgitating the same old rhetoric about how it can't possibly work. The only thing I would caution though is to use the high resolution choice 1080P and full screen or as big as possible to do the overlay analysis to be sure that when you put a line where center ball is supposed to be that it's actually at centerball. Laying a line over a tiny ball on screen can actually end up intimating something that isn't really there.

When I do my videos I hope for someone to come along and analyze them so that I can see if their points have merit and force me to go back to the table OR if their points can be adequately defended against reasonably.

John,

Part of the problem why these discussions don't go well is because some people put words in the mouths of others that they did not say. That seems to be rather common on AZB for a few, not so much you, but you do on occasion.

I've never said that CTE does not nor can not work. It's the why that those saying it's working for them that is the issue as far as I'm concerned.

When one says that they can get a different CTE/ET? line by moving to a different perspective, it's that & the like to which I take exception.

When one moves to a different location then they have lost the true objectively fixed cue ball & have gone of onto their own subjective perception or intuition for the shot & have left the realm of objectivity.

You seem to say, well so what, their still pocketing the ball.

BUT... guys like TonyTheTiger, Dan, & others are not.

One of the reasons they are not is because they are not leaving the realm of objectivity in which CTE is supposed to perform or perhaps in Tony's case he may have been, but he may just not have as good as a subjective perception for shots such as say Gerry.

Video will not & can not do anything to really get under the hood & find anything when it comes to objectivity, subjectivity, or what one is actually seeing.

Neil thinks he has provided the answer. He may have provided how it's possible to base shots off of an objective visual but that has been stated by Mhort rather long ago. However, that is subjective & not objective.

PJ, I, TonyTheTiger, others, & Now Dan have basically asked for specific instructions on how to objectively move to a different perspective & still see the objective visual. To think it can be seen from more than one location belies the basic instruction & the setting of the fixed cue ball as well as science.

Since there is only one line to simultaneously see the two lines then one can not move to a different perspective & still see them simultaneously.

So where is the instructions of an objective nature that explains 5 shots with different outcomes angles being pocketed with the same visual & the exact same pivot?