Question for Dr. Dave on cue weight

It's been several years since I did the math. Forgive me, but in my lazy dotage I just don't feel like looking up the details. (Actually, the fewer details the better, I guess.) But here's the gist of it.

If you apply a specific force over a certain distance (e.g., bridge length) to an initially stationary object, that object will end up with a specific kinetic energy. It doesn't matter how heavy or light the object happens to be; it will have that much energy, and no more and no less. If it then collides square on (e.g., center ball) with another object of exactly the same mass, it stops and the second object will "acquire" all of the first object's kinetic energy, as I think we all know. If the masses aren't equal, the first object will either rebound somewhat or continue forward after the collision, thus "retaining" some of that kinetic energy in either case. As a result, the second object will come away with less. So having the masses equal will ensure that the second object ends up with the most energy (speed).

The reason we don't play with 6 oz cues is that the force our arms generate must move not only the cue but our arms themselves. Their mass prevents us from generating the cue speed we would get by applying the same force directly to the cue, bypassing our arms. Given this unavoidable load (our arms), and the fact that once the cue makes contact with the ball that load is irrelevant (decoupled) from the collision, it pays to use a cue heavier than the cueball because the increase in the cue's kinetic energy from the added mass outstrips the reduction in speed from adding that mass to the combined (and preloaded) arm/cue system. Some of that energy is wasted in the form of non-zero post-collision cue velocity, but there's still a net gain. That's true up to a point, that is, and that point is the optimal cue mass for a center-ball hit...at least from an efficiency point of view. Add more weight and the cue/arm combination slows down too much. If you substituted a lighter ball, the optimal mass would shift to a lighter weight accordingly. (End of long preamble which I'm know you already understand).

When you hit off center, the cue, in effect, sees less of the cueball's mass. The farther off center, the less of the mass it sees. Analogous to a center-ball hit with a lighter cueball, the optimal cue weight is correspondingly reduced.

I don't know if that's at all convincing. It's kind of hard (for me) to translate the math into the vernacular (even if I did revisit the details).

To repeat an earlier point, though, that's the simple physics of it. When you add bio-mechanics, things aren't so clear. You can probably generate more force against a heavier cue, so the above assumption of a single value for the force, regardless of cue weight, doesn't rest on very solid ground. While a lighter cue might possibly still be the way to go for a power draw shot, the best weight likely wouldn't represent as great a reduction as the "naive" physics would suggest. Of course, if its weight is already below optimum for a center-ball hit, that would make any benefit from a reduction even less likely.

Jim
It seems you're talking about efficiency of energy transfer, not amount of energy transferred. If I hit the CB with an equal weight cue the transfer of energy is highly efficient. If I hit it with a freight train moving at the same speed the transfer is grossly inefficient, but the total transferred energy is much higher (and I believe the relevant factor for draw effect).

Also, I get the "optimum cue weight for your arm" thing, but that's separate from optimal cue/CB weight ratio, isn't it?

pj
chgo
 
No, it can't, not even "for some".

Imagine the back hand replaced by a string attached to a measuring device. What information would the measuring device receive that it could translate to an indication of the cue's weight distribution? None - same for your hand.

pj
chgo

Bad analogy unless the wrist is locked/still. The hand pivots at the wrist, with 5 or so extra "strings" (depending on how safe you are around a bandsaw of course) dangling from it. The brain utilizing proprioception can tell where the hand is in space, and depending on how you grip the cue, and how and which of your fingers support the weight of the cue etc etc etc.
Anyway, I believe it is possible to tell, and an easy way to test it is this. Pick up a 16oz claw hammer, hold it at your side in a normal hammer grip, with the head in front (hammer parallel to the floor). Feel the weight ahead of the hand. Now, hold it pointed backwards. You can feel the weight difference. Right?
 
Bad analogy unless the wrist is locked/still. The hand pivots at the wrist, with 5 or so extra "strings" (depending on how safe you are around a bandsaw of course) dangling from it. The brain utilizing proprioception can tell where the hand is in space, and depending on how you grip the cue, and how and which of your fingers support the weight of the cue etc etc etc.
Anyway, I believe it is possible to tell, and an easy way to test it is this. Pick up a 16oz claw hammer, hold it at your side in a normal hammer grip, with the head in front (hammer parallel to the floor). Feel the weight ahead of the hand. Now, hold it pointed backwards. You can feel the weight difference. Right?
As I've pointed out before, in shooting stance the cue rests on both hands, so there's no way for either hand to feel the weight distribution - only the amount of weight each hand is supporting. Your brain can compare the two and deduce something about weight distribution, but neither hand alone has enough info for that (in that stance).

pj
chgo
 
As I've pointed out before, in shooting stance the cue rests on both hands, so there's no way for either hand to feel the weight distribution - only the amount of weight each hand is supporting. Your brain can compare the two and deduce something about weight distribution, but neither hand alone has enough info for that (in that stance).

pj
chgo

Well, considering that we are talking about being in a stance, and using both hands........ Im not seeing where the confusion lies..... LOL
Another example, if your pool hall has a snooker table with the long cue, try using it as a normal cue. Its an extreme example, but should make the point.
 
Well, considering that we are talking about being in a stance, and using both hands........ Im not seeing where the confusion lies..... LOL
Another example, if your pool hall has a snooker table with the long cue, try using it as a normal cue. Its an extreme example, but should make the point.

Or just put a 30" butt extension on a regular cue.
 
I don't recall any specific reason. I imagine that someone said at one time, "I can't imagine anyone playing with a cue heavier than 25 ounces." Some masse cues might be counterexamples.

In general you want to avoid players doing things that are so unconventional that the game is changed. That includes equipment and use of equipment. I think 25 ounces is a reasonable limit until someone comes along who has a good reason for playing with a heavier stick.

In any case, I don't think stick weight is ever checked. I imagine that some of the PVC-pipe cue extenders put the total weight above 25 ounces. They look pretty heavy.

I vaguely recall the limit had to do with breaking, under the assumption that a heavy cue broke harder.

I only knew one player who preferred a very heavy cue, about 30 ounces. It was a an internally butt weighted house cue. I tried it and didn't like it at all but he played fine with it.
 
Well, considering that we are talking about being in a stance, and using both hands........ Im not seeing where the confusion lies..... LOL
Another example, if your pool hall has a snooker table with the long cue, try using it as a normal cue. Its an extreme example, but should make the point.
I think it misses my point, but this whole tangent is a minor issue and mostly irrelevant to this thread anyway, so I'll let it go for discussion another time.

pj
chgo
 
A string has no brain & no knowledge & knows nothing about torque.

It's statements like these that indicate you are not well versed & makes you look like a 'parrot' ...
Rick, Maybe you're arguing about different things, but in the context of the discussion, Patrick is right (along with Bob J.).

Let say you had a long cylindrical rod of constant diameter resting on a set of rollers. One end is weighted. If you shut your eyes and took hold of the rod anywhere along its length, then gave it a shove, you could not tell whether the weighted end is ahead of or behind your hand. You wouldn't know whether you're pushing or pulling the bulk of its mass.

But I think maybe you're arguing (essentially) that if you were to lift the rod up with both hands at different points, you could tell by the downward forces/torques experienced differently at each hand, where the heavy end is located? This, of course, is also true.

...I do think we need to sort this out since next to knowing where your seat is located, it's probably the most critical element in developing a mediocre game.

Jim
 
Excellent post, Jim.

For those who want more explanation concerning physiology and other factors, see the following article in last month's Billiards Digest:

"Optimal Cue Weight" (BD, October, 2015)

I'm sure those interested in this thread will also find the article interesting. I did my best to explain things as plainly as possible.

Enjoy,
Dave
Thanks again Dr. Dave. As with everything else, you're always most generous with your comments.

I haven't had a chance yet, but looking forward to reading the article.

Jim
 
It seems you're talking about efficiency of energy transfer, not amount of energy transferred. If I hit the CB with an equal weight cue the transfer of energy is highly efficient. If I hit it with a freight train moving at the same speed the transfer is grossly inefficient, but the total transferred energy is much higher (and I believe the relevant factor for draw effect).

Also, I get the "optimum cue weight for your arm" thing, but that's separate from optimal cue/CB weight ratio, isn't it?

pj
chgo
Actually, I was arguing about getting the most energy "into" the cueball in an absolute sense. But as I already indicated, it's a bit difficult to justify the math with these "meta-descriptions."

Your freight train example might help to clarify some. When a huge mass collides with a much smaller stationary one, the most speed that the smaller mass can attain is twice the speed of the larger one. That is the upper limit. If either your arm or the cue were the mass of a freight train, and you managed to move them forward at all, the cueball, acquiring only about twice that speed, would likewise hardly move.

So increasing the mass of the cue above 6 ounces gets you more cueball speed because you have to get your arm going too (which is considerably more than 6 ounces), but, you can overdue it. There is some middle ground which yields the greatest bang for the buck.

Jim
 
Rick, Maybe you're arguing about different things, but in the context of the discussion, Patrick is right (along with Bob J.).

Let say you had a long cylindrical rod of constant diameter resting on a set of rollers. One end is weighted. If you shut your eyes and took hold of the rod anywhere along its length, then gave it a shove, you could not tell whether the weighted end is ahead of or behind your hand. You wouldn't know whether you're pushing or pulling the bulk of its mass.

But I think maybe you're arguing (essentially) that if you were to lift the rod up with both hands at different points, you could tell by the downward forces/torques experienced differently at each hand, where the heavy end is located? This, of course, is also true.

...I do think we need to sort this out since next to knowing where your seat is located, it's probably the most critical element in developing a mediocre game.

Jim

Jim,

The 'fault' in your analogy is that the hand is supporting the unevenly balanced 'rod' & it is not being supported by outside means as is your 'rod' that is being supported all along it's length by the rollers.

Our mind, our brain, receives the sensory input from our hand that IS supporting the unevenly balanced 'rod' that is being supported at a place along it's length OTHER than it's center of gravity.

I do get the part that you should have put in green text. But some have a penchant for trying to make others appear foolish to make themselves appear more 'smart'.

When one holds a baseball bat or golf club one knows where the more weighted end is even if one chokes up & is not holding it 'at' the end.

As I tried to make clear, the pulling or pushing aspect as it relates to stroking a pool cue is NOT dependent on where the center of gravity of the cue is located as it is 'always' in front of the back hand.

The pulling or pushing aspect is dependent on the bio-mechanical 'feel' & that relates to whether the entire arm is pulling IN to the shoulder or pushing OUT away from the shoulder. Both happen during most pool strokes & it then comes down to the moment of contact, before, during, or after. Hence... Timing. Is one pulling the cue into the ball or is one pushing the cue into the ball?

Best Wishes.

PS I do not look forward to having any 'arguments' with YOU.

PPS It's not that difficult to take something out of context & then make a correct statement about a single aspect or a single parameter or a single action. It's more genuine to keep matters in context & to consider all aspects that are in play. That is the more difficult task at times. Isolation is not always the best policy. In fact, IMO it rarely ever is, for one then sometimes if not often loses sight of the big picture that is the real concern.
 
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When a huge mass collides with a much smaller stationary one, the most speed that the smaller mass can attain is twice the speed of the larger one. That is the upper limit.
I find this statement very intriguing. Where does that come from?
 
I find this statement very intriguing. Where does that come from?
It comes from the laws of conservation of energy and momentum, but you don't really need them to see why it's so.

Suppose someone tosses a ball against a big heavy wall, one attached firmly to the earth no less. On the way to the wall we'll arbitrarily say its velocity is -v (negative v). If no energy is lost during the collision, the ball will bounce back with essentially the same speed it had going into the wall. Its velocity is now v (positive v). The term "velocity" involves both speed and direction, so even though its speed is the same, its velocity has changed since it's now going in the opposite direction. To compute the change, we subtract its old velocity from its new one. Doing this we get: v - (-v) = 2v.

Fine and dandy, but what about the case where the big heavy wall is the one that's moving and the ball is initially stationary? Well, actually the above simple thought experiment applies to it as well. In it, we assumed the wall/earth was stationary because we naturally pictured ourselves standing on good old terra firma observing all of this. But suppose someone else was moving in the same direction and at the same speed as the ball before it hit the wall, that is, with velocity -v relative to us. For them, the ball would have been stationary while the wall was moving with positive velocity v. We know from the above that after the collision the ball now moved with velocity v relative to the wall. So in this other frame of reference (moving at -v relative to us), after the collision the ball's velocity must have been the sum of the wall's velocity (v) plus its new velocity relative to the wall (also v), that is: v + v = 2v. So from their point of view, the wall was initially moving at velocity v, collides with the stationary ball, and the ball then takes off at twice that velocity.

It's important to point out that their interpretation of these events was just as legitimate as ours. Therefore, we can generalize the last sentence of the previous paragraph to include any such situations where, from our vantage point, a very massive object impacts a much lighter one.

Jim
 
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It comes from the laws of conservation of energy and momentum, but you don't really need them to see why it's so.

Suppose someone tosses a ball against a big heavy wall, one attached firmly to the earth no less. On the way to the wall we'll arbitrarily say its velocity is -v (negative v). If no energy is lost during the collision, the ball will bounce back with essentially the same speed it had going into the wall. Its velocity is now v (positive v). The term "velocity" involves both speed and direction, so even though its speed is the same, its velocity has changed since it's now going in the opposite direction. To compute the change, we subtract its old velocity from its new one. Doing this we get: v - (-v) = 2v.

Fine and dandy, but what about the case where the big heavy wall is the one that's moving and the ball is initially stationary? Well, actually the above simple thought experiment applies to it as well. In it, we assumed the wall/earth was stationary because we naturally pictured ourselves standing on good old terra firma observing all of this. But suppose someone else was moving in the same direction and at the same speed as the ball before it hit the wall, that is, with velocity -v relative to us. For them, the ball would have been stationary while the wall was moving with positive velocity v. We know from the above that after the collision the ball now moved with velocity v relative to the wall. So in this other frame of reference (moving at -v relative to us), after the collision the ball's velocity must have been the sum of the wall's velocity (v) plus its new velocity relative to the wall (also v), that is: v + v = 2v. So from their point of view, the wall was initially moving at velocity v, collides with the stationary ball, and the ball then takes off at twice that velocity.

It's important to point out that their interpretation of these events was just as legitimate as ours. Therefore, we can generalize the last sentence of the previous paragraph to include any such situations where, from our vantage point, a very massive object impacts a much lighter one.

Jim
I'm very familiar with the principles of conservation for q=mv and Ek, but it was too late for me to work out the math. Thanks for taking the time to explain. This is a spectacular observation!

Dr Dave, thanks, I'll take a look. Meanwhile I had found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_collision#One-dimensional_Newtonian

In light of this, maybe the ideal weight of a cue has less to do with momentum transfer and more to do with the "feel" (that word again) of the cue.

I notice I'm more sensitive to the diameter of the butt and to a lesser extent the center of mass than the weight of a cue (although, to me, less than 18 doesn't feel right for pool). For identical materials, the butt's diameter must have some relationship with the weight of the cue.
 
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