I think you missed the point entirely...did you watch the whole video?
Wow, what a beautiful sight! Larry Nevel's stroke, warming up for a 9-ball match
- Thread starter arnaldo
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I think you missed the point entirely...did you watch the whole video?
I do see the point in the video. The tight pants guy equals the shot Massey does with a pinned elbow. He really does muscle it, with locked everything, and the shot looks very forced, but he does it.
In your opinion, would you say that the Larry Nevel example is more fluid, relaxed, and at the same time powerful with elbow drop, compared to the tight pants guy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXxk8tBnuP0
Judd Trump. Watch the video. He does both - pendulum, and also drops his elbow. Same with Neil Robertson. It depends on the shot.
This video:
https://youtu.be/pVjIZpY3Yug
4 min 30 seconds
Ronnie says "hit with the elbow, it's the only way to get a straight consistent shot each and every time". Then demonstrates with elbow drop.
Oh I don't disagree with you at all. My point is that Scott is right in that the same affects can be achieved. Mind you I believe that a pendulum stroke with an elbow drop after contact and not during contact has a benefit and that's finishing all the way through the ball and feeling that. Golfers don't have to finish all the way through their swing but doing so develops consistency. A "piston" stroke requires to much extra motion for me to pull off.
In terms of fluidity, almost all pool players have more fluid mechanics than snooker players (or at least it appears that way). Its the long pause. However, snooker players do this in order to cue consistently and its a lot easier to power the cue ball with a pause when using an open bridge.
So does Larry's stroke look pretty and fluid, absolutely. Can he make the cueball do things most others can't? Yes. Is it because he drops his elbow? Objectively, no. Subjectively for him it does because he may not be able to cue any other way.
That was really well said. I agree one hundred percent.
To Mr. Lee's point, I will concede and agree, that yes, power can be found in a pinned elbow. But is it ideal? As in, if the shot can be achieved the same way but with less effort, less rigidness, and less chance of miscue-that would be a better course of action to play the game consistently.
Now the next question to Mr. Lee would be if Larry was seeking instruction, would you instruct him to keep the elbow pinned?
I'm not understanding why you think it takes more effort to use a pendulum stroke than a piston stroke. Or why it is more rigid? As to the miscue, it's actually just the opposite. With a pendulum stroke, the tip comes back to exactly where it started from.
If one is used to elbow drop, then yes, it will take effort and seem rigid to not drop the elbow. However, once a pendulum stroke is ingrained, and it becomes automatic, there is no effort to using it, and it doesn't feel rigid in the least. In fact, it feels quite smooth and effortless.
Hi Neil, I was commenting on this video that Drop the Rock posted....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GsRIPSTWfo
showing Mike Massey with an extreme draw shot and commenting that you need to drop the elbow, then a guy appears in the second half and does the shot but with a locked elbow.
He completes the shot, and the speed is impressive, however his body and the action, grip, muscles....very tense and rigid. There is even some bent shaft action (like Siegel break) going on, he puts so much down force on it.
I suppose the theme here is, to get impressive action ie Larry Nevel stroke in the first post, the elbow has to drop. If not, then there is going to be some serious muscle involved.
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Mike Massey's shot has been talked about on here several times. He does state that one must drop the elbow. At some point after that clip, he was shown a slow motion of that clip, and he was very surprised at what he saw, and has since changed his stance on it.
When played in slow motion (Mike's clip), it is very evident that he raises his elbow on the back swing and then drops his elbow back to where it started from at contact. He doesn't really drop his elbow until after the cb is gone. He actually is using a pendulum stroke for the shot, and didn't realize it.
The slight raising the elbow from the initial set point can add some more power, but at contact, he is at the initial pinned elbow point.
As far as Oyster looking tense and rigid, part of that is nothing more than the fact that he is muscular and his muscles tend to stand out more than on a heavier person. The bent cue action is nothing more than his bridge hand staying in place and his back hand coming up. That means the tip has to go down and it can only go down so far because of the table being there. The force is caused by the speed of the stroke, not muscling it as you think.
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People always talk about playability with cues. Some say all cues play the same but may have a different hit/feel. So I ask. Could Mike and Larry play the same amount of draw with any cue, using the same stroke? What is playability? I guess I always thought of it as ability to draw with the least amount of effort. Never had a cue I couldn't play follow shots without ease. I have had cues that I couldnt draw with ease.
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Pinned elbow = short radius.
Elbow moving as in raiseing & lowering means the 'pivot' is at the shoulder.
Shoulder 'pivot point' = longer radius.
The Driver is the longest club in the Golf Bag & hits the ball with more force than a 1 iron even if it had the same loft as a 1 iron.
Why do SBV & others 'stand up' before the 'swing' when breaking?
Turn the pic over imagine the knock as our hand & the hand in the pic as our elbow.
There are reasons why man developed certain practices.
Just food for thought.
Best Wishes to ALL.
Elbow moving as in raiseing & lowering means the 'pivot' is at the shoulder.
Shoulder 'pivot point' = longer radius.
The Driver is the longest club in the Golf Bag & hits the ball with more force than a 1 iron even if it had the same loft as a 1 iron.
Why do SBV & others 'stand up' before the 'swing' when breaking?
Turn the pic over imagine the knock as our hand & the hand in the pic as our elbow.
There are reasons why man developed certain practices.
Just food for thought.
Best Wishes to ALL.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tg3hk9L49MU#t=131
Let me see someone shoot that 8 ball like that with a locked elbow.
Let me see someone shoot that 8 ball like that with a locked elbow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tg3hk9L49MU#t=131
Let me see someone shoot that 8 ball like that with a locked elbow.
In golf, there are basically two manners of propelling the golf ball.
There are those like many if not most amateurs that hit AT the golf ball...
& then...
There are those that like almost all Pros swing through the golf ball & the ball is merely in the way of the swing through the ball.
The hitter looks like they are putting all of the strength into it while the swinger looks effortless.
Best Wishes to ALL.
PS I have 3 years of physics education so I understand how soon after contact the ball leaves the tip of the cue & that it can not be affected after it leaves the tip. Like I said earlier, there has not been anywhere near enough study of ALL of the 'stuff' going on at & DURING contact & the differences of different tip paths DURING contact nor the bio-mechanics, etc. involved regarding the different types of delivering the cue stick & the tip.
Old golf 'logic' was that harder materials compressed the ball more & would yield more distance. A sound physics principle. Newer Golf 'logic' says a more pliable material that can give & rebound like a trampoline would launch the ball farther.
It actually takes both in the right balance just as the golf shaft flex must fit the persons swing speed capabilities to yield the optimal performance.
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The last part of your post intrigued me the most.
It's like the difference between potential energy and kinetic energy.
IMO with a pinned elbow, kinetic energy is transferred to the cue ball, but there is still a little potential energy left in the tank that is not being tapped into.
With elbow drop, there is more potential energy being tapped into, from the upper arm, and combined with the elbow = more kinetic energy transferred to the cue ball and on a more linear fashion.
Neil, massey's stance is a little more upright than today's players. Does this help with a pinned elbow style? Kind of like the break, today's pros are more upright while breaking.
Also, what is your take on Ronnie O's "hit with your elbow" instruction at 4 min 30 seconds in this video:
https://youtu.be/pVjIZpY3Yug
4 min 30 seconds
Not sure just what he means, as "their" language is often different meanings than our use of the english language. But, if I had to guess, I would say that he is referring to keeping the elbow in line with the shot.
As to the stance, it depends on the person for what height works best for them.
I think the answer here is the number of events he shoots in, or doesn't in his case. If he didn't have a full time job and toured around like other pro-caliber players, I believe that he would win a few.
I watched him trade sets with Shane at The Carom Room in Beloit, WI. I believe they broke even after four or five hours.
I didn't see this session, but an employee of The Carom Room posted that Larry broke even with Dennis after seven hours of big table 10-ball.
I'm not trying to convince you he's going to trade sets with either player every time he plays them, but he can play with the best.
Oh god here we go. Sorry but the pendulum stroke vs piston creates the same results. The reason most people cant produce what a piston stroke does is that they hit the cb too late. A pendulum stroke is no good if contact is made too late in the swing or too early.
A piston stroke only really has this issue with a hit that is too early. The elbow drop makes it difficult to hit the ball too late and decreases the loss of energy. HOWEVER. More moving parts also means more energy expended NOT necessarily imparted.
Also, like golf, distance is affected (removing variables of material) by swing speed and contacting the ball at the correct point during the swing. Cue speed and contact "timing" work the same way in pool. From my personal experience I can produce a match faster cue speed with a pendulum stroke than a piston.
The reason a lot of players use a piston stroke anyways is because of their body position and needing to get out of the way of the cue.
Now stroke length does change the energy imparted on the cue ball. It can be easier to use a longer bridge with a piston stroke than a pendulum. Elbow drop does not = piston. The affect of elbow drop after contact is more psychological than anything because it forces you to follow through properly. A 6" bridge should finish 6 inches after the shot an 8"-8" so on and so forth. The true value of elbow drop after contact is getting used to finishing the cue the appropriate amount through the shot to maximize imparted energy.
A piston stroke only really has this issue with a hit that is too early. The elbow drop makes it difficult to hit the ball too late and decreases the loss of energy. HOWEVER. More moving parts also means more energy expended NOT necessarily imparted.
Also, like golf, distance is affected (removing variables of material) by swing speed and contacting the ball at the correct point during the swing. Cue speed and contact "timing" work the same way in pool. From my personal experience I can produce a match faster cue speed with a pendulum stroke than a piston.
The reason a lot of players use a piston stroke anyways is because of their body position and needing to get out of the way of the cue.
Now stroke length does change the energy imparted on the cue ball. It can be easier to use a longer bridge with a piston stroke than a pendulum. Elbow drop does not = piston. The affect of elbow drop after contact is more psychological than anything because it forces you to follow through properly. A 6" bridge should finish 6 inches after the shot an 8"-8" so on and so forth. The true value of elbow drop after contact is getting used to finishing the cue the appropriate amount through the shot to maximize imparted energy.
The golf analogy is certainly not perfect by any means but there are similarities in play.
The Atlatl method is more applicable as it is linear in delivery & not rotational as the golf club is delivered.
When Mike Massey's elbow raises on the back stroke that puts the upper arm into play on the forward stroke.
Golfers transfer their weight onto the forward side before they even start the downward motion of the arms & hands.
Baseball batters make a stride, even if it is just picking up the foot & putting it back down into the same place.
Fran Crimi recently mentioned about the shoulder moving & CJ Wiley was starting to get into the loading & unloading of the shoulder before he evacuated the bombardment.
We are creatures of movement. Try keeping the lower 1/2 of one's body still in either a golf or baseball swing & see how much success one would have with that approach.
The human body & the mind are amazing entities IF we do not put up mentally contrived mental &/or physical road blocks up to limit them.
The best thing that an athlete can do for themselves is sometimes the most difficult & that is to simply to get out of their own way & let that amazing body & mind do what it can naturally do.
Focus on delivering the cue straight & hitting where one wants to hit & if the elbow drops when it 'wants' to drop', let it, whether it's before, during, or after contact. If the cue is moving in a straight line then it matters not when it lowers. It is only bad if the contrived plan was for it to not move as the cue is changing & not moving in a linear line.
Naturally, one has to not have physical road blocks in the way like a non-conducive connection to the cue or a 'totally' bad stance & set up...
but... we human beings can be fairly good about finding the best & most efficient means if we don't set up those road blocks because we think we know better than our body does about performing a physical task.
Yes, sometimes a bit of help is required to remove some of those roadblocks. More experienced players & professional instructors can certainly be of assistance with that if there is a road block hindering performance & the one helping understands the bio mechanics & not locked into one of those mentally contrived roadblocks.
Sorry for the rant, but it's a point of interest to me.
Best Wishes to You & ALL.