Same Old Same Old

And you don't think the members on the other side of the fence with Patrick heading it up haven't gone wacko (as in berserk) from 18 years of belittling this rather small and innocuous topic??
Consider a hypothetical case totally unrelated to CTE, where some here, perhaps yourself, were sure that false assertions were being made about something. A group of supporters constantly re-asserted them, over and over. Well, if you want the forum to be a place where people can come to get the truth about this or that, then there would be nothing crazy about opposing those false propositions, would there? What is a bit crazy is that you would have to, that the moderators wouldn't eventually put a stop to it. Unfortunately, in the case of CTE, they seem to be at least partially persuaded themselves.

I think you overestimated. You're down to about 3 or 4 neurons.
I guess the word "wacko" made more of an impression than "rational and intelligent."

Jim
 
Consider a hypothetical case totally unrelated to CTE, where some here, perhaps yourself, were sure that false assertions were being made about something. A group of supporters constantly re-asserted them, over and over. Well, if you want the forum to be a place where people can come to get the truth about this or that, then there would be nothing crazy about opposing those false propositions, would there? What is a bit crazy is that you would have to, that the moderators wouldn't eventually put a stop to it. Unfortunately, in the case of CTE, they seem to be at least partially persuaded themselves.

I guess the word "wacko" made more of an impression than "rational and intelligent."

Jim

Here is what I would do if I owned this forum.

I would DEMAND that all the participants get into a room somewhere with pool tables and video cameras and make them hash it out.

I would do that for any such topic - essentially a put up or shut up ultimatum.

I understand your point because I see people make and stick to false assertions which I know to be 100% wrong due to my participation in said events. Yet they flame away with impunity never being censored and asked to present their proof or drop it.

In this case though Jim we have plenty of anecdotal evidence. What is the job of the scientist when anecdotal evidence of a phenomena comes along? They should investigate it to determine the cause.

Not simply as an intellectual debate but real hands-on work.

I visited with Pat and he wouldn't even try to mimic the steps for CTE. He flat out refused to do it. So to me continued arguing on his part as to how HE thinks it 'works" is ridiculous when the many refuses to get his hands dirty with it.
 
Consider a hypothetical case totally unrelated to CTE, where some here, perhaps yourself, were sure that false assertions were being made about something.

It's not hypothetical, false assertions are made about some things but I don't ever get involved for the most part. I just flat out don't care.

A group of supporters constantly re-asserted them, over and over.

Aside from CTE, I don't see A group pro something or A
group opposed to something that's an ongoing issue. It doesn't exist. If so, what's the subject?


Well, if you want the forum to be a place where people can come to get the truth about this or that, then there would be nothing crazy about opposing those false propositions, would there?

If people come to a pool forum chances are they'll get as much misinformation about everything as they do valid. I don't have the desire to be part of a forum police department as you and PJ seem to want to be.

What is a bit crazy is that you would have to, that the moderators wouldn't eventually put a stop to it. Unfortunately, in the case of CTE, they seem to be at least partially persuaded themselves.

Do you want a moderator job so you can enforce your bias?

I guess the word "wacko" made more of an impression than "rational and intelligent."

Jim

So in other words, anybody who uses CTE, is a proponent of it or an instructor is not rational and intelligent...correct?

How rational and intelligent is it for those LIBELLING Hal Houle, Stan Shuffet, and the subject of CTE for 18 consecutive years when the individuals doing it DO NOT KNOW the entire instructions and visualizations for the system nor can use or demonstrate it on the table.

You say because it absolutely doesn't work? Then you're one of those libeling everything and have no working clue. Pat Johnson doesn't even say it any more. He used to but now he nit picks wording in the instruction more than anything and still continues to make many indirect (but direct) stabs at Stan and Hal.

Do you know the full definition of LIBEL? Here it is: 1. ANY FALSE AND MALICIOUS WRITTEN OR PRINTED STATEMENT, OR ANY SIGN, PICTURE OR EFFIGY, TENDING TO EXPOSE A PERSON TO PUBLIC RIDICULE, HATRED OR CONTEMPT OR TO INJURE HIS REPUTATION IN ANY WAY.

2. THE ACT OF PUBLISHING SUCH A THING

3. ANYTHING THAT GIVES AN UNFLATTERING OR DAMAGING PICTURE OF THE SUBJECT WITH WHICH IT IS DEALING.

The very first salvo of the above came from none other than PATRICK JOHNSON 18 years ago and hasn't stopped through today nor will it tomorrow or the next year.
You're included in the group of libelers and supporters of the practice.

CTE users when first taught by Hal didn't start anything. They were in awe and gleeful to find something so different that really helped their game and worked. They just wanted to talk about it like they do today. But NOPE...suppression and ridicule by Pat Johnson and gang.

 
You clearly don't. Libel has to be false.

pj
chgo

If you think I am going to keep spending 10s of thousands on my business without engaging you legally, cause you ain't stoppin', you need to think again.

Frankly, I do not give a darn, perhaps you do not give a darn either.....

Stan Shuffett
 
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Here is what I would do if I owned this forum.

I would DEMAND that all the participants get into a room somewhere with pool tables and video cameras and make them hash it out.
But the cameras can't get into a player's mind. For every shot line that you claimed was found using only CTE, we could claim that you reverted to your pre-CTE method of aiming as a final check/adjustment. As you've noted before, the difference in cue direction between making a shot and missing it is very small - we're generally talking about a few tenths of a degree at typical ball separations and cut angles. I suppose, though, that if you were doing manual CTE, once you got into the pre-pivot alignment, some sort of device could be used to ensure that the pivot to centerball was done without any further tweaking.

Suppose then that the device proved that you weren't making any post-pivot adjustments. Well, for us, that would demonstrate that you've memorized your "perceptions" very well. That is, for all shots which require, say, the A reference point on the object ball and the same inside or outside pivot, but different final aim lines, you've internalized whatever you have to do (pre-pivot) to end up on those differing aim lines after the pivot. Fine, but we would say that recalling what you've internalized is what we call feel. It's not guaranteed that you're going to do it right because it involves memory, just as with any other method of aiming.

But if you disagreed with the above, that it's not a matter of memorization, than we'd have to ask you for explicit instructions as to how you arrived at the different aim lines. That is, what lines did you construct in your mind, what dots did you connect, etc., and how did these lead you to the shot line?


I would do that for any such topic - essentially a put up or shut up ultimatum.

I understand your point because I see people make and stick to false assertions which I know to be 100% wrong due to my participation in said events. Yet they flame away with impunity never being censored and asked to present their proof or drop it.
Well, we have some common ground here. Good to hear that we can agree on something!

In this case though Jim we have plenty of anecdotal evidence. What is the job of the scientist when anecdotal evidence of a phenomena comes along? They should investigate it to determine the cause.

Not simply as an intellectual debate but real hands-on work.

I visited with Pat and he wouldn't even try to mimic the steps for CTE. He flat out refused to do it. So to me continued arguing on his part as to how HE thinks it 'works" is ridiculous when the many refuses to get his hands dirty with it.
There's still that gulf between our sides regarding what constitutes a 'proof,' though sometimes I think our differences are simply over the meanings of words, as per above.

Jim
 
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So in other words, anybody who uses CTE, is a proponent of it or an instructor is not rational and intelligent...correct?
I don't think you got the gist of my meaning.

How rational and intelligent is it for those LIBELLING Hal Houle, Stan Shuffet, and the subject of CTE for 18 consecutive years when the individuals doing it DO NOT KNOW the entire instructions and visualizations for the system nor can use or demonstrate it on the table.

You say because it absolutely doesn't work? Then you're one of those libeling everything and have no working clue. Pat Johnson doesn't even say it any more. He used to but now he nit picks wording in the instruction more than anything and still continues to make many indirect (but direct) stabs at Stan and Hal.

Do you know the full definition of LIBEL? Here it is: 1. ANY FALSE AND MALICIOUS WRITTEN OR PRINTED STATEMENT, OR ANY SIGN, PICTURE OR EFFIGY, TENDING TO EXPOSE A PERSON TO PUBLIC RIDICULE, HATRED OR CONTEMPT OR TO INJURE HIS REPUTATION IN ANY WAY.

2. THE ACT OF PUBLISHING SUCH A THING

3. ANYTHING THAT GIVES AN UNFLATTERING OR DAMAGING PICTURE OF THE SUBJECT WITH WHICH IT IS DEALING.

The very first salvo of the above came from none other than PATRICK JOHNSON 18 years ago and hasn't stopped through today nor will it tomorrow or the next year.
You're included in the group of libelers and supporters of the practice
I think a judge would have a big problem with anything that claimed to be objective, as in doesn't involve subjective interpretation/memorization, yet is beyond mathematics or logic. I remember your early attempts at presenting some of the geometry (e.g. shot arcs) and I don't think he or she would be too happy with that, either.

Jim
 
I don't think you got the gist of my meaning.

I think a judge would have a big problem with anything that claimed to be objective, as in doesn't involve subjective interpretation/memorization, yet is beyond mathematics or logic. I remember your early attempts at presenting some of the geometry (e.g. shot arcs) and I don't think he or she would be too happy with that, either.

Jim

But I got a strong feeling Stan's new book will stand up in court very nicely.
 
If you think I am going to keep spending 10s of thousands on my business without engaging you legally, cause you ain't stoppin', you need to think again.

Frankly, I do not give a darn, perhaps you do not give a darn either.....

Stan Shuffett
I suggest you look up Kitzmiller v. Dover before wasting your money. Judges are more capable of distinguishing rational from irrational than you might think.

pj
chgo
 
I suggest you look up Kitzmiller v. Dover before wasting your money. Judges are more capable of distinguishing rational from irrational than you might think.

pj
chgo

You need not worry about labeling how I decide to spend my money. I see legality as a great thing for this matter....cause it WILL bring it to a head.

The one thing you should avoid is telling me that I have no chance with legality.....

You should gather ALL of your post referencing me and my work and share them with your attorney.......A little bit of work but very, very telling and well-worthwhile.

The fact that you are labeling my work as irrational is exactly why I am coming after your ass!

Stan Shuffett
 
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You clearly don't. Libel has to be false.

pj
chgo

You clearly don't which is why you've done it and keep doing it.

ANY FALSE AND MALICIOUS WRITTEN OR PRINTED STATEMENT, OR ANY SIGN, PICTURE OR EFFIGY, TENDING TO EXPOSE A PERSON TO PUBLIC RIDICULE, HATRED OR CONTEMPT OR TO INJURE HIS REPUTATION IN ANY WAY.


THAT WOULD BE WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.
 
You should do the same with your posts and your attorney, Stan. I hope he's honest with you.

pj
chgo

I am prepared to let the chips fall where they fall.

I have done my work with CTE. Does that not give you a clue about how I am proceeding legally?

Stan Shuffett
 
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I don't think you got the gist of my meaning.

I think a judge would have a big problem with anything that claimed to be objective, as in doesn't involve subjective interpretation/memorization, yet is beyond mathematics or logic. I remember your early attempts at presenting some of the geometry (e.g. shot arcs) and I don't think he or she would be too happy with that, either.

Jim

A judge wouldn't give a rat's a$$ about the math or geometry to prove anything.
How is logic proven? One person's logic can be quite different than another. As PJ said, it's all in the mind. Who or which one is correct.

Math can't be illustrated for 90/90 aiming or the SEE System. Nor can it be 100% accurately shown for deflection or a masse shot. Who cares?!! Why don't you math/physics cowboys go after those systems as well instead of just CTE??
 
I suggest you look up Kitzmiller v. Dover before wasting your money. Judges are more capable of distinguishing rational from irrational than you might think.

pj
chgo

And they might very well find you the irrational one with all the proof you've given over 18 years. You could probably get off with an insanity plea.
 
A judge wouldn't give a rat's a$$ about the math or geometry to prove anything.
I sincerely hope Stan isn't listening to your expert advice about this - for his sake and his pocket book's. Will you reimburse him after encouraging him to do something so foolish?

pj
chgo
 
Will the judge have to learn cte before he issues a verdict? :confused:

I think a pool table in the court room would settle the case in a flash with Stan demonstrating and explaining it and Patrick attempting to do likewise in the debunking part.

It would be the best thing that could happen with Patrick stuttering and stammering everything incorrectly and his bone head going back and forth, up and down like a lizard.
 
I sincerely hope Stan isn't listening to your expert advice about this - for his sake and his pocket book's. Will you reimburse him after encouraging him to do something so foolish?

pj
chgo

Stan is his own person and will do what he wants to do. Can you prove the math to be incorrect especially when balls go into the pockets from all cut angles?

So far I've given you the best advice: And they might very well find you the irrational one with all the proof you've given over 18 years. You could probably get off with an insanity plea.
 
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