Ditto. Jump cues take the beauty of the well executed kick shot against a strong safety out of the game. Ban them. Then we'll work on banning 7 footers except in homes where space is at a premium.
Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup
- Thread starter hang-the-9
- Start date
Ditto. Jump cues take the beauty of the well executed kick shot against a strong safety out of the game. Ban them. Then we'll work on banning 7 footers except in homes where space is at a premium.
I will say right now that if someone can reliably hit center cue ball, they can be taught how to see the angles for kicks in less than an hour. I can also teach that same person to learn how to do a basic simple jump in probably less than 30 minutes. In either cause it'll take a year to learn and advance their abilities in both disciplines.
If you can't reliably hit center cue ball it'll take years to learn how to even get the cue ball to go where you want when kicking. For jumping, while you might learn how to get over an impeding ball. Because of the lack of tip control, hitting a ball is still not guaranteed. I know that because using left or right when jumping has totally different reactions than normal shooting. In either case it'll take years to learn both.
I'd like to issue a challenge out there to to all these people that say jumping is too easy to video tape themselves jumping some of the jumps Shane, Darren, Niels, Cheng, Chang Pin Yi, and Yu Lung have done in the last three years. I doubt even 1% of the 'jumping is too easy' crowd could pull off the jumps. I doubt less than 1% of the 'ban jump cues' crowd could pull off the shots. Jealousy in my mind. But they won't admit it. Shane's jump against Alex in that Japan 10 ball tourney still in my mind best jump I've ever seen. Two bank after jumping to the 3 to then combo the 10 in and he called it. If someone offered these naysayers a million to just do that jump again they wouldn't get it done in 10 years.
Last edited:
I tend to agree with you Hits 'em Hard. I see people give ball in hand or sell out at least as often with jumps as with kicks. If they're so easy, why do people screw them up so often?
I wouldn't shed a tear if they banned jump cues, but the fact that jumps are risky, they're fun and flashy for the causal viewer to watch, and they don't come up that often anyway makes me support them for events like the Mosconi Cup that are geared towards a general audience.
I wouldn't shed a tear if they banned jump cues, but the fact that jumps are risky, they're fun and flashy for the causal viewer to watch, and they don't come up that often anyway makes me support them for events like the Mosconi Cup that are geared towards a general audience.
He does hate them that's why I mentioned him. I've watched him on multiple occasions use the shorty and always chuckle when it happens. I say if you don't like them don't use them. Let me sit in awe of your exceptional kicking skills. To those that say jumping is soooooo easy please set up and video 10 shots of I don't know lets say a 30 degree cut OB 2' out of the pocket and the CB 4 diamonds away. Then try 10 of the same shot jumping a ball to pocket it. Your results should be equal to or greater than just cutting the ball in with jumping being so easy. I wouldn't even add the challenge of getting position on another ball as well....patiently waiting for the videos.
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........
Oh wait, were you serious?
Maybe AtLarge has these stats, but of all shots performed at the Mosconi Cup how many were performed with an actual jump cue? That excludes Boyes' one jump for sure. I'd be will to say less than 1%. How about for the World 9-ball? What percentage of shots were jump shots. Shall we go farther and then correlate the data between jumping and kicking? What percentage of kicks sell out versus jumps? There's a lot of data to sift through, but the results are probably not what the 'ban jump cues' crowd want. Even for the Mosconi Cup kicks sold out more times that failed jumps did.
I would shed a tear if jump cues got banned.
Why? Couldn't you show yourself all the kicking angles in an hour?
Last edited:
Well I honestly thought you were done with trolling people on these forums. Since you seem to want to breed ignorance than to actually have a conversation, I'll dip down to your level.
You see there's these things called methods for approaching certain shots. There's a method for one, two, three and four rail, natural angle kicks. Among these methods, there's a constant factor. Slight running top spin. A person who can reliably hit center ball can be taught to hit certain kicks easy. Now if we want to advance into spinning the cue ball or reversing, he'll even shortening or lengthening a kick will take years. The exact same can be said for jumping.
Just because someone of yesteryear said something means it's the holy grail of advice? If all these old school players that were anti jump cues were capable of seeing what the true top tier pros do with a jump cue. They would see how much more aggressive players are these days. Times change. I'm sure the first time someone used chalk back in the day they were accused of cheating. You can continue to be ignorant of what's really going on with pool, or you can just deal with it. But if you choose to be ignorant, at least keep the trolling to yourself.
Ok shit stain. If a kick is a sell out no matter what I do, and a jump shot at least gives me a chance to make the ball. It's smarter to jump than kick even I do sell out. Your telling me that banning jump cues would help promote a winning attitude? Get ****ed.
Last edited:
Nail on the head right here. I think it adds something for the casual viewer. Pool needs casual viewers interested.
Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk
Tell you what - I'll make a concession on the jump cue rule. You can keep the short stick. If it's the CUE that allows you to make the shots, let's stick a Le Pro tip on it.
With all those hours of practice, if I took away the phenolic tip, you'd be useless. Completely and utterly useless with the jump cue UNLESS you had over a foot between you and the ball.
If you give me a cue, and put any leather tip on it, I can make the same shots with a soft, medium or hard leather tip. I may need to adjust my spin, but I could play with any of the tips.
Jump cue - if I put a soft tip on it, it's useless. If I put a medium tip on it, it's useless. The tip needs to be rock hard for any sort of proficiency in jumping. Therefore, when the equipment configuration makes up about 80% of the ability to make the shot, it's a prop. Nothing more.
Jump shots actually took skill back when you had to use a leather tip. The Bunjee Jumper changed everything. The phenolic tipped jump cue turned pool into Yahtzee.
Priceless. Grow up.
Every time this comes up in the forums, I hesitate to respond because people get very emotional, almost religious, about this topic. This post may seem like a rant, but I assure you it is not, and it won't upset me one iota if you disagree.
That being said, below are some of my thoughts on jumping and jump cues.
Jumping is easy, kicking is hard
Using a jump cue, with a little training, getting the cue ball airborne is easy. That's where "jumping is easy" ends. Jumping is a skill, just like any other, and it takes work, knowledge, and practice to maximize that skill. Once you learn how to get the ball airborne, you have to learn how to not hit it too hard, how to land it where you want, how to hit it on line, how to pocket balls, and ultimately how to control the cue ball afterwards.
In my local room, I think I am regarded as one of the better practitioners of the jump shot. Why? Because I practice it. I've put in my time to develop the skill. While jumping I have (intentionally) made balls and applied english and spin. I have jump caromed, jump masse'd, jump banked, jump kicked, and jump safetied. I once jumped my own ball in eight-ball: not because I got out of position, but because it was the best way to complete the run out. I've tried (unsuccessfully) to double jump, but I'll get there some day.
I've dart jumped, sidearm jumped, long cue jumped, and rail jumped. I've jumped balls very close and far away. I've jumped into a cluster to strike a specific ball on top. And if you think it was "easy" to get to that skill level, then we'd have to agree to disagree. Even though my "make" percentage is very low, in the grand scheme of things, I've gotten pretty good at it by hard work and effort. And don't forget that developing the skill isn't enough, you also have to have the imagination and the vision to see the shot and the courage to pull the trigger.
I get tired of hearing that "jumping is easy". I love seeing a good jump shot, because I know it's more difficult than a regular shot. It's harder to aim, it's harder to stroke the ball on the proper line, and it's harder to control the cue ball, both before and after the object ball is contacted. The margin for error is much smaller when you add the third dimension. Do you know why the pros jump with such confidence? They practice the jump shot. If it was so easy, they wouldn't need to practice. And yes, they use good equipment. And they have great imaginations. And, let's face it, they're just better at this than we are.
Does kicking require more skill? To achieve the same level of skill, absolutely. I can kick and hit a ball fairly well, and some of the time I can even hit the correct side of the object ball, and sometimes I can control the cue ball afterwards. I applaud anyone who can truly master kicking, especially considering all the mitigating factors between tables: rail/bumper quality, cloth condition and cleanliness, speed, humidity, english, spin, how hard the cue ball was struck, and so on. But the difficulty of kicking in no way alleviates the difficulty of jumping. Both are skills that take time and effort to develop.
Banning the jump shot
Reading all that above, you may think that I would get upset if the jump shot was banned. I would not. As long as the same rules apply to everyone, that's equitable. When I was learning how to play, before jump cues were really a thing, I took lessons from a guy who played on the BCA tour (and owned our local pool hall, where I worked). He found me practicing the jump shot one day (full cue at the time), and told me not to bother because the BCA was going to outlaw the jump shot. 25 years later, here we are.
I do think pool was intended to be played two dimensionally. We don't allow the scoop shot, which is basically an intentional miscue. If we wanted to extend that to say that any action that causes the cue ball to intentionally leave the surface of the table is a foul, then so be it. Until that day comes, however, the jump shot is just another part of the game.
On banning jump cues
Assuming the jump shot is still legal, the problem with banning the jump cue is it's a slippery slope. If you're going to ban the jump cue because it is a "specialty" cue, then you have to ban the break cue as well. It doesn't matter if your justification is to protect your playing tip, it's a cue designed and used for a specialty shot, so the same logic applies. At the very least, you have to ban special break tips. And shafts. And ferrules. While we're at it, we have to ban the bridge and the temporary cue extension. These are specialty pieces of equipment used for specialty shots and specialty situations.
Again, I'm OK if this happens, because the same rules would apply to everyone. Is it realistic? Heck no. But the idea that jump cues are ruining the game is as preposterous as saying the bridge is ruining the game.
Conclusions
As long as the jump shot is still legal, the jump cue should be legal. You may not like jumping, which is fine, but don't jump to the conclusion (sorry, I couldn't resist) that it is either too easy or ruining the game. At the end of the day, I still have to select the shot, aim, and stroke. No cue, jump or otherwise, is going to do that for me.
That being said, below are some of my thoughts on jumping and jump cues.
Jumping is easy, kicking is hard
Using a jump cue, with a little training, getting the cue ball airborne is easy. That's where "jumping is easy" ends. Jumping is a skill, just like any other, and it takes work, knowledge, and practice to maximize that skill. Once you learn how to get the ball airborne, you have to learn how to not hit it too hard, how to land it where you want, how to hit it on line, how to pocket balls, and ultimately how to control the cue ball afterwards.
In my local room, I think I am regarded as one of the better practitioners of the jump shot. Why? Because I practice it. I've put in my time to develop the skill. While jumping I have (intentionally) made balls and applied english and spin. I have jump caromed, jump masse'd, jump banked, jump kicked, and jump safetied. I once jumped my own ball in eight-ball: not because I got out of position, but because it was the best way to complete the run out. I've tried (unsuccessfully) to double jump, but I'll get there some day.
I've dart jumped, sidearm jumped, long cue jumped, and rail jumped. I've jumped balls very close and far away. I've jumped into a cluster to strike a specific ball on top. And if you think it was "easy" to get to that skill level, then we'd have to agree to disagree. Even though my "make" percentage is very low, in the grand scheme of things, I've gotten pretty good at it by hard work and effort. And don't forget that developing the skill isn't enough, you also have to have the imagination and the vision to see the shot and the courage to pull the trigger.
I get tired of hearing that "jumping is easy". I love seeing a good jump shot, because I know it's more difficult than a regular shot. It's harder to aim, it's harder to stroke the ball on the proper line, and it's harder to control the cue ball, both before and after the object ball is contacted. The margin for error is much smaller when you add the third dimension. Do you know why the pros jump with such confidence? They practice the jump shot. If it was so easy, they wouldn't need to practice. And yes, they use good equipment. And they have great imaginations. And, let's face it, they're just better at this than we are.
Does kicking require more skill? To achieve the same level of skill, absolutely. I can kick and hit a ball fairly well, and some of the time I can even hit the correct side of the object ball, and sometimes I can control the cue ball afterwards. I applaud anyone who can truly master kicking, especially considering all the mitigating factors between tables: rail/bumper quality, cloth condition and cleanliness, speed, humidity, english, spin, how hard the cue ball was struck, and so on. But the difficulty of kicking in no way alleviates the difficulty of jumping. Both are skills that take time and effort to develop.
Banning the jump shot
Reading all that above, you may think that I would get upset if the jump shot was banned. I would not. As long as the same rules apply to everyone, that's equitable. When I was learning how to play, before jump cues were really a thing, I took lessons from a guy who played on the BCA tour (and owned our local pool hall, where I worked). He found me practicing the jump shot one day (full cue at the time), and told me not to bother because the BCA was going to outlaw the jump shot. 25 years later, here we are.
I do think pool was intended to be played two dimensionally. We don't allow the scoop shot, which is basically an intentional miscue. If we wanted to extend that to say that any action that causes the cue ball to intentionally leave the surface of the table is a foul, then so be it. Until that day comes, however, the jump shot is just another part of the game.
On banning jump cues
Assuming the jump shot is still legal, the problem with banning the jump cue is it's a slippery slope. If you're going to ban the jump cue because it is a "specialty" cue, then you have to ban the break cue as well. It doesn't matter if your justification is to protect your playing tip, it's a cue designed and used for a specialty shot, so the same logic applies. At the very least, you have to ban special break tips. And shafts. And ferrules. While we're at it, we have to ban the bridge and the temporary cue extension. These are specialty pieces of equipment used for specialty shots and specialty situations.
Again, I'm OK if this happens, because the same rules would apply to everyone. Is it realistic? Heck no. But the idea that jump cues are ruining the game is as preposterous as saying the bridge is ruining the game.
Conclusions
As long as the jump shot is still legal, the jump cue should be legal. You may not like jumping, which is fine, but don't jump to the conclusion (sorry, I couldn't resist) that it is either too easy or ruining the game. At the end of the day, I still have to select the shot, aim, and stroke. No cue, jump or otherwise, is going to do that for me.
Make jump cues an option.
Before the match, a player can choose to have the use of a jump cue available, or not.
If they choose to be able to use jump cues in a match, they lose on 2 fouls.
If they choose not to use a jump cue during their match, they lose on the traditional 3 fouls.
Once the choice is made at the beginning of a match, that's it. There is no switching.
Adds a little strategy as if you have someone who opted for a jump cue, and another that didn't, you can have one push out to a jump shot that they know the other guy can't take.
But if a guy takes a jump shot, and fouls or goes off the table as we saw several times when guys tried to jump balls that were close to the rail in mosconi cup, you then have BIH and only need to lock them up one more time, and if they miss, you win the game.
Before the match, a player can choose to have the use of a jump cue available, or not.
If they choose to be able to use jump cues in a match, they lose on 2 fouls.
If they choose not to use a jump cue during their match, they lose on the traditional 3 fouls.
Once the choice is made at the beginning of a match, that's it. There is no switching.
Adds a little strategy as if you have someone who opted for a jump cue, and another that didn't, you can have one push out to a jump shot that they know the other guy can't take.
But if a guy takes a jump shot, and fouls or goes off the table as we saw several times when guys tried to jump balls that were close to the rail in mosconi cup, you then have BIH and only need to lock them up one more time, and if they miss, you win the game.
Last edited:
See you soon.
The short jump cue is a joke. I don't care how 'thrilling' it is for the non pool player to witness - it makes an extremely difficult sport EASIER. So much easier to secure a 'good' hit on the object ball. Learn how to kick is the answer.
*** Also, we have to take the luck factor out of the game. Call all shots ... ***
Overall the matches were quite exciting imo. Fan attendance was something I've not seen in the USA - ever.
Could this tournament jumpstart our sport for mainstream America? Optimistic I am :smile:
JMO
That is part of the game.
Whose fault is it if you hook Yourself?
You can push out after a break in rotation games?
What about the lucky leave that leaves you an open shot or a missed safety?
Think before you type
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk